Worthy Christian Forums -> Apologetics

NOTE: This is NOT for debate. Just something to pray on and consider. No responses are needed.

Brethren,

I'm not sure that anyone has ever been argued into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I wasn't although many tried for years to no avail. On the other hand, I know many who have been LED to Jesus Christ though the expressed LOVE of believers. I just thought this may be appropriate to consider and reflect on your motives before you enter into a discussion with anyone, believer and non-believer alike, regarding your FAITH.

Matthew 5
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Express your FAITH saints but let God do the work. He is FAITHFUL and desires that all men come to HIM through the Blood of HIS Son Jesus Christ.

Be Blessed,
Wayne

Apologetics now has new sub-forums!

"Defense of the Gospel" will be mainly for discussions regarding theism vs. atheism, belief in God, and discussions regarding the Christian faith, the Bible, and Jesus.

"Faith vs. Science" will be for discussions regarding Creationism and Evolution, and science verses religion.

"The Universal Moral Law" will be for discussions pertaining to morals, ethics, etc.

"The Substance of Man: Body, Spirit, Soul" will be for discussions regarding the parts of man and theological discussions along the lines of the nature of man.

Saints,

Many of you know that I have been away for a while. My job has me running every which way lately, so I have not been able to moderate much. After my short respite, I am looking at this forum, and I am seeing some subjects here that probably would have best been posted in other forums. I am also seeing topics here that could have been posted with a lot more grace and respect.

As a refresher to you all, and as a possible means of education for the newcomers, I'd like to address the subject of apologetics. Here is a definition of "apologetics" I found on the web:

Apologetics: Apologetics: A systematic defense of a belief system. It is derived from the Greek "apologia" which means to create a defense. See 1 Peter 3:15. Most apologetics texts are directed to members of another religion, or to secularists. However they tend to be read in practice by the faith group whose beliefs are defended. See Polemics.

In Christianity:

• Classical Apologetics: uses rational arguments to prove that God exists, and relies on evidence to support biblical claims and miracles.
• Presuppositional Apologetics: starts with the assumption that God exists and that the Bible is true. They argue from this that their view of the Trinity, salvation, Heaven, Hell, etc. is valid.
• Evidential Apologetics: uses evidences such as miracles, fulfilled prophecies, etc. to prove that God exists and that the biblical account of Christ and his message are valid and trustworthy.

Strictly speaking, saints, apologetics is that branch of Christian writing that is devoted to the defense of the doctrines and teachings of the Christian faith. In the above definition there are two main points which we need to understand.

The first point is the defense of the essentials of the Christian faith. Some may argue over what the essentials of the Christian faith truly are. But overall the essentials of the faith are as follows:

1) The conception of the Christ in the virgin womb of Mary.
2) The fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies being in Jesus Christ alone.
3) The absolute divinity and perfect humanity of Jesus Christ.
4) The death of Jesus Christ being for the remission of sin and sins.
5) The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
6) The Bible as the infallible Word of God.
7) The revelation of the Triune God in the Bible.

Now, Paul himself never claimed to give emphasis to anything other than Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). Therefore, we may say that the core essential to all Christian doctrine is Christ crucified. All these other items are essentials, to be sure, but they hinge upon the death of Christ in one way or another.

The second point in the above definition is the use of rational argumentation. Rational argumentation means that in our defense of the faith we use logic, reason, and I would add, charity. A defense of Christian doctrine is only as good as the charity and reason of the person defending it. So in apologetics we have to very careful how we present the truth to those who argue against it.

In closing, dear saints, please be careful of a few things. First, be careful which subjects you chose to post here. I am not trying to be legal, nor am I trying to be too strict. But if it's a news item, we have a forum for it. If it's a question regarding how to deal with a certain matter or a person, we have places for that too. But here, we would like to address issues related to the items I mentioned. OSAS is a good subject; I have enjoyed reading those threads. Issues related to the errors of some doctirines are okay too, so long as we are careful and mindful of how the discussions are going.

Second, please, please be mindful of others. We have experienced a lot of trouble here with addressing doctrinal issues in a way that is inconsiderate of others. Apologetics is not a kind of way to fight with another. Rather, it is the proper defense and division of the word of God. Let us be mindful of that, and cut out whatever rhetoric we can.

And in all things, dear ones, remember the Lord whom we love and serve. Let us pursue together for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called us upward.

Much Grace,

~G

I have a friend who is a Jehovas Witness who won't Celebrate Christmas because it's a Pagan holiday. For some reason, I started thinking about it today.

I always thought that some Roman guy in the 600's AD scheduled Christmas on the same day as the Winter Solstice celebration (or whatever they are celebrating) on purpose as a shrewd way to bring more people to Christ.

I don't want to offend her but don't want to leave it alone, either. I also want to make sure I have my facts right...

People here often say that they are in communitation with God, not in those words perhaps, but they imply that they speak to God and God responds. I don't get it. I get the impression that some people actually hear God speaking with them. What does that mean? What does it sound like? Is it your own inner voice? Can anyone explain? When I use to pray I never heard anything back. It was liking talking to someone when they weren't there to hear me.

Where do atheists come from?

* 03 March 2010 by Lois Lee and Stephen Bullivant
* Magazine issue 2750.

Editorial: Time to accept that atheism, not god, is odd


<snip>

Ironically, sociologists, psychologists, economists and, particularly, cognitive anthropologists have become so skilled at explaining why humans seem to have such a widespread bias towards theistic beliefs that a new question readily presents itself: if religion comes so naturally to us, why are so many people, especially in western Europe, apparently resistant to it?

<snip>

What we need now is a scientific study not of the theistic, but the atheistic mind. We need to discover why some people do not "get" the supernatural agency many cognitive scientists argue comes automatically to our brains. Is this capacity non-existent in the non-religious, or is it rerouted, undermined or overwritten - and under what conditions?


OP article here:
New scientist

To read the studies that led to the questions above and what was done with this info.

All right I need some help. I have a friend who has demonstrated paranormal ability's. She seems to have the ability to read thoughts at least to some degree, its not all the time but its enough to know that its not dumb luck. She also says that she can read people's personality, like there Aura. I also believe she has the ability to see spirits. She has had these gifts ever sense she was very very little, it was her grandmother who first brought these ability's attention. She claims that both her grandmother and her mom are practicing witch's. She has had many experience with the supernatural growing up. Now everything I have pieced together these are ability's sense she was at least four years old, maybe even younger with out realizing it.

Now here the thing, the bible warns against physic's, mediums and clairvoyants. Now I believe in a few things, first that the bible is talking about those with these ability's gained through Witchcraft, Vodoo, or other Mystical practice. However I believe that any one born with these ability's are given these ability's by the devil or by demons. I think children are protected from demonic possession and other demonic activity's because children and baby's especially can not make the choice between good or evil. So the question is can God give people these type of gifts at birth? Look the main things is I want to be able to give her answers to these questions, but I don't know the biblical answers to this question. So if you guys could help I would be most grateful.

A short Story

A man is taken and put into a room. This man knows nothing about Jesus, the bible or religion. He is then told that some Christians will come and talk to him, each having 5 minutes.
And so the first one enters the room, a JW and starts talking, telling this man about his church, his religion and about salvation. And then so it was, that an AOG , a Catholic, a protestant, a morman and many others came and spoke to this man.
Then Jesus entered the room, and the man said,” Oh, I guess you want me to join your church too ?.
Jesus smiled and asked him, “ what did they tell you.
Oh he said, one claimed there was no salvation outside the church, another claimed that only 144000 where going to make it, one told me how to be a good Christian, another said baptism was required, but there was little that they agreed on. But there was one thing they mostly agreed on and that was, that their church was the right one.
Then Jesus asked him,” and what about Jesus”?.
Oh Him, well I’m not so sure, they tell me He died for all my sins, then they tell me I must go to a priest to have my sins forgiven, they tell me I must repeat some words after them to receive Jesus, by the time they where finished, I was confused and this Jesus seems to be a hard taskmaster.
Oh! Jesus exclaimed., and do you know who I am ?
No! he replied.
I am Him, Jesus, the one they spoke of.
Oh, the man replied, I didn’t recognize you, you don’t look or sound anything like what they said of you., but how can I be saved /
Jesus replied ,do you believe that I died for all your sins and that salvation is through me?.
The man thought for a minute, Yes he replied.
Then, Jesus replied, your sins are forgiven and your salvation is at hand.
But, the man said, what must I do to earn my salvation ?.
Nothing, Jesus replied, just have faith and believe.
What about tomorrow,? Will I see you?
I will always be with, replied Jesus.
And If I sin again?
Then just ask me for forgiveness and believe and it will be so.
That is just to good to be true.
It is, replied Jesus, but it is hard for the flesh to accept.
The man stood up, I must go, will I see you again?
Just say my name and I will be there in front of you ,whether you see me or not I am with you.
And so the man left, happy in the knowledge that his salvation was in Jesus, and filled with joy because he was set free from his bonds.


In His Love

I want to learn more about demons. What do people think about them. I am assuming everyone here believes they are very real and yet my early belief system did not have a place for demons. I don't think I ever gave them any thought. I attended church up to my teen years yet I don't recall ever being taught anything about them: Satan yes, but demons no. I was very surprised when I came here and discovered that most everyone takes the presence of demons very seriously. Are there any Christians here who don't take demons seriously? How many believe they have had personal evidence of demons? I have no interest in debating the existence of demons in this thread. I just want to know what people think about the subject.

I have learnt so much about Jesus through my trials, and so much through my divorce. So often i think back of the love I have for my wife, and so often I cry out to Jesus, because I so longto tell her how much I love her. And so it is with Jesus, He sits here waiting patiently for His people to come to Him For this He says, David, Tell my people I love them. He does. Listen to His heart, it beats for you.

In His Love

I'm in Edmonton this weekend for my first time. It's cool temperatures and they had snow the day before yesterday in mid May. Ah..I love it!

Anyway, I'm at this "Signs and Wonders" meeting and wanted to give it an honest try. There was a guy who went freaky during the middle of a worship song and started crawling on the floor and barking while everyone around him was rebuking demons. The music stopped...he stopped. The music started again and he ran out of the room like it was killing him. That didn't seem so fake to me. The guy was probably infested but unfortunately no one went after him when he left and he is still like he came in.


But we've all seen this by now...people line up for prayer, the preacher touches their forehead and they fall down backwards.

Well, there were mostly ladies here and the preacher asked if someone would stand behind them. No one moved and I was near the front so I got behind them. It felt weird to me to be a "people catcher". They'd fall down as if God had answered their prayer and they couldn't stand? Some of them were about to hit their heads on the metal chairs upfront and I had to twist them sideways while moving a chair with my leg or whatever.

What is up with that??


Some of them would wobble first, some of them would go down with a touch, some of them would fall when he waved his hand their direction, some he would seem to push multiple times before they'd go. I dunno.....it's just strange to me. Why would someone want that? Are they really incapable of standing or is this a religious show/game?

Is that stuff all fakery? Does anyone here have experience in that? Help?

I try to be very careful about rejecting something just because it makes no sense to my human mind. There are a LOT of things in the bible that would have made me skeptical if I used my own "wisdom" to discern it. Like the Red Sea crossing or Jesus raising the dead or the resurrection.

but all of those seemed to have a practical reason....is there a practical reason for falling down backwards?

Who is Jesus? That is the question I have been looking in to the past few days. My salvation and the salvation of every single person on this planet rest on this very matter. It is our faith in Christ and who he is and that he died for our sins and was resurrected that is the back bone of our faith.
Yet answering this question is not a simple as one might think. This brings me to the reason for this post. I came across two articles if you will that both go in to this very subject of who Christ is. Both of these articles are very well written and thought out, they are also backed up by scripture which only further complicate this subject matter.

The first article was written by Blindseeker who posted this on the worthy boards and was kind enough to point me to it. In his article (which I will post) he says that Christ was God made flesh. He very elegantly backs this up with scripture. After reading his article one can’t help but to jump in to the belief that Christ was indeed God in human flesh.

The second Article is by Pastor Martian Eldon Bledsoe who I came across while looking for further explanation as to what the Godhead is. His article states that Christ was not actually God but was quite literally the Son of God.

Both articles use scriptures to back up their arguments so well that it leaves one wonder which is true. I mean both of the authors used scriptures to back up their arguments that either one could be true. Only one of them can be right. Both articles have something’s in common but for the most part they are different as night and day in their beliefs. So it leaves the question which one is the right one.

So I decided to put up both arguments and let you guys give me your thoughts and perceptions. I tend to lean more towards believing Pastor Martin Eldon Bledsoe because it makes more logical sense in the long run. There are few problems with Blindseekers article. However I still have a lot to learn and will continue to explore this question till God shows me the right answer, after all my salvation is dependent on having the right answer.

Any way I am going to start with Pastor Martin Eldon Bledson article and then follow it up with Blindseeker article. I want to warn you here and now that both articles are very long. So it might take you some time to get through them, especially if you look up the scriptures.

One thing I will mention before I move along, I mean this as no offence to anyone. I also am not trying to offend or disagree with Blindseeker. The purpose of this is to open the floor to find out what you guys think, to get your opinions and feelings on the two articles. Maybe through you guys me or others looking for answers to this very question will finally find an answer.

(I'm joking when I say this is going to be very long.)

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

These are the conclusions of my studies on these verses -

Notes On I Corinthians 15:20-28

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Here is a passage of scripture that many people do not take the time to verify what Paul was actually saying. The very succinct nature of the passage alone demands further investigation into the depths of Paul’s intent. Here in the span nine short verses Paul takes us from Christ rising from the dead and being the “firstfruit of them that slept,” and covers the plan of God from the first Adam whose sin brought death to all men to the conclusion of all things when God may be all in all.

Who cannot but stop and marvel that so much is being congested into nine verses. It appears to me that Paul must have been quickly summarizing many of the things he had taught to the Corinthians when he was there reasoning the scriptures with them. Therefore it would be prudent of us to prayerfully ask God’s spirit for enlightenment that we too may grasp the gravity of these words and invest time to carefully look at each verse and search the Old Testament scriptures Paul had, while also reviewing his other teachings/epistles.

I Co 15:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead -

Here we are confronted with one of the great truths that we must keep in mind as we read this passage, God cannot die, but the man Jesus the Christ did. This does not detract from the truth that Jesus was indeed “God manifested in the flesh,” rather it emphasizes part of the great mystery that Jesus was indeed “Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

When the scriptures address Jesus Christ, it is focusing on God as He tabernacled with men. This we see can refer to the earthen vessel of flesh and blood by the words of Apostle Peter –

2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

We can also find acceptable words of Apostle John for the consideration of God being manifested in a glorified celestial form (tabernacle) as well as "manifested in the flesh" –

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Re 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Another thing to keep in mind about that Jesus Christ is that the definition of “Christ” is; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, or, the Anointed One. –

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

Some may argue though that there have been many men “anointed” by God and that Jesus was just another anointed one. However, Jesus own words makes it clear He wasn’t just “anointed,” but rather He was in fact “the Christ” or, The Anointed One. This isn’t true just because the Spirit of God was upon Jesus, it is true because in Jesus dwelt the fullness of the essence of God bodily.

Mt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged He His disciples that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ.

Col 2:9 For in Him all the wealth of God's being has a living form (Bible in Basic English)

Col 2:9 For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily (Revised Standard Version)

We see in Jesus’ words in verse Mt 16:13 above that He confesses to be the Son of man even though He had no earthly father. Jesus is acknowledging and confirming that He is indeed one of them, a man.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same . . .

20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. –

When Christ raised from the dead He was the first of humanity to literally have been dead so long that his bodily normally would have suffered decay, and unlike when Lazarus was raised, Jesus was again in a glorified celestial body being the first man of many of “them that sleep,” who will be raised again according to the sure mercies of David and the promise of God. Who are they? They are the redeemed of humanity.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins.

Ps 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

21. For since by man came death, -

Here there appears to be an allusion to legality of the law of sin and death. “For since by man," the first Adam, "came death” it was not possible that the blood of a lesser creature could redeem man.

Mic 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.-

The second flesh and blood Adam, was Jesus the Christ. It was His sinless human blood that was our propitiation for sins.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared Me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God.
8 Above when He said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men die because of Adam’s sin, therefore so can all men can be “made alive” because of Christ’s death.

23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;-

“Every man in his own order” shall rise again, but Jesus was the first to defeat death and to be raised again clothed with glory and immortality of flesh and bone.

Ac 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Ro 1:3 Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here is the qualifier of “all” them that shall be “made alive” in verse 22. It is those “that are Christ’s,” or as Paul stated in I Thess. 4:16, “the dead in Christ.” These shall arise and be clothed with glory and immortality of flesh and bone “at His coming” and shall “be fashioned like unto His glorious body.”

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

24 Then cometh the end, when he^J shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father-

From verse 24 to 28 Paul mentions several times “he, his” and “him.” Now most people automatically assume this is all the same person through the verses, or just Jesus and God. However, up to this point we have been addressing the fact that Jesus Christ was made a man and came to redeem man as the Christ, or “The Anointed” as God manifested in the flesh. Therefore for the purpose of this study I have placed a ^J for Jesus, ^M for man or ^G for God in super-script for identifying who the intended subject may be. Now I know many will disagree and that is fine, I'm simply showing who may be intended and explaining why I believe so.

Here in verse 24 Paul says, “Then cometh the end . . .” At this time the Kingdom of God is established on earth purified and all enemies defeated. This is "the end" phase of the working of God for the redemption and reconciliation of that part of humanity which has embraced the truth and hope of the Gospel through faith, trust, surrender and obedience.

John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

24 Then cometh the end, when he^J shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father when he^J shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The delivering up the Kingdom to God began at the cross when Jesus “spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” He had proven God worthy of all glory, honor and power and the adversary to be a liar and thus condemned. Through the sacrifice of Himself as the Lamb of God he provided a propitiation for sins and empowerment for the meek who through their acknowledged weaknesses He was made strong.

However, the last stage of purification of sin from God’s creation and will begin with the start of the millennium and be concluded upon its end.

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

25 For he^M must reign, till he^J hath put all enemies under his^M feet.

Here is where many will have to sit back and try and be open to just consider what is being presented, that the first “he” here and the “his” is dealing with man, or the redeemed of the Lord. But consider the scriptures below and rethink the verse to see if “he (man) must reign . . . till,” or throughout the Millennium up until the great judgment completing the process of delivering up the kingdom to God, even the Father. Yet this reigning of man, the saints, is with the Jesus Christ upon His earthly throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

Da 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Da 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Da 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lu 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Re 2:26 And he [man/saints] that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him [man/saints] will I give power over the nations:
27 And he [man/saints] shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is not destroyed until it is cast into the fire at the end of the millennium. Until then death is still possible in the millennium for those who enter into its duration, much like the children of the Israelites who under the age of twenty were permitted to enter the Promise Land.

Nu 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

De 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Yet even though the saints are ruling with Christ on the throne, death is virtually suspended, yet still possible, as well as sin, which is why we rule with a rod of iron..

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Rev 2014 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nevertheless, death is no threat to Christ; He had the power to lay down His life and take it back again and He rose from it. Neither is death a threat to God who cannot die. Death is the enemy of man and must be destroyed, and will be.

27 For he^G hath put all things under his^M feet.

I know many are having reservations with my superscripts here, but let us look at the scriptures Paul had and would have taught from as well as those he wrote.

Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

Ps 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Now some may say these are all references only to Jesus, the Son of man who was made lower than the angels, but consider exactly what scripture does say about man, the son of man and Jesus who likewise became the Son of man.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Please note verse five, “unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come.” The subject “whereof we speak,” is unto who the world to come (the new earth), is going to be place in subjection to, we clearly see is it’s not the angels.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that Thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Here the author is quoting Psalm 8, but concludes in the end of verse 8 that “now we see not all things put under him.” That is because Christ hasn’t come yet and subdue all things-

Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Nevertheless, afterwards in Hebrews it says in verse 9, “But we see Jesus . . .” which clearly distinguishes this man from those before Him -

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Here we see Jesus being made a little lower than the angels . . . for man. That He should taste death for every man and deliver us all from it as He becomes the Captain of our salvation.

27 For he^G hath put all things under his^H feet. But when he^G saith all things are put under him^M, it is manifest that he^G is excepted, which did put all things under him^M.

The above verse is clear and needs no explanation. However, there are still verses confirming it.

Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him^M . . .

It is clear that God has promised to His saints that they would rule and reign with Christ, and it is a promise that God will fulfill as he did with bringing the sons of Abraham into the Promise Land. Yet that too was just a type and shadow of something even greater for God’s children –

Ex 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.

Le 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

Le 25:38 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Joshua’s taking them into the Promise Land was not the ultimate fulfillment of God’s promise for His people, it was just His confirmation that He was able to subdue all our enemies and keep His promises.

Ps 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Ps 68:22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:
23 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him^M, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him^G that put all things under him^M, that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

The “hope of His calling . . . the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints” is something I do not think we can fully understand concerning the significance of the resurrection of Jesus, and the resurrection of the saints as well and what that really brings about for us. It is as Paul said, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

I think to often we believers attempt to interpret what is ahead for the saints by what we have known and experience here, yet that is as inadequate as trying to show the wonders of our solar system with various sized styrofoam balls positioned in place with wire. What we will be when we are resurrected cannot compare to anything that we can now perceive by virtue of the magnitude of difference between flesh and spirit, terrestrial and celestial.

I am not saying this all is the pure truth . . . only that I see it as very feasible and understandable this way. Concerning “then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him^G” I believe that must be interpreted in the light of God’s plan being fulfilled in the redeemed, the realization of that for which all creation groans–

Ro 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;
23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

At the beginning of the millennium the enemies of the saints and God, which are both flesh and blood and demonic are subdued. With Jesus Christ's return the nations are conquered and the wicked leaders destroy and the devil and his minions are cast into the pit for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years they are released to go an deceive the nations to come and make war again against the Lamb of God.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The only ones in the millennium that the devil will be able to deceive are those who during the millennial reign of Christ with His saints failed to recognize that the righteousness of God was more precious than Gold. Those who failed to receive a love for His truth and embrace Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then, at the end of the millennium, shall the last enemy of the unregenerated be removed forever which is death.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Then shall the unregenerated, those who entered and lived through and were born in the millennium and still needing the mediation and priesthood of Jesus and gave themselves to the reigning Christ, (God manifested in celestial form), will be set free, washed in His blood and changed in a twinkling of an eye. They too will be joined/combined fitly together with all the saints and God will forever be all and all.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him^M, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him^G that put all things under him^M, that God may be all in all.

To me, the simple explanation of verse 28 is after God has redeemed, transformed, glorified all those that love Him and His truth. That these things will be true –

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection

Ro 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

For this is to where Paul continues in I Cor. 15-

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I feel, I believe and I am persuaded in my spirit, (these I say more of searching for the right words than declaring such) that the mystery of God that He has for His church is so unfathomable that I scarcely feel it proper to utter. I dare not say “Thus says the Holy Writ of God,” but yet I feel that such is witnessed thereby nonetheless. That God, who is in pure essence a holy omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent spirit without form or limitation held by time or space, was indeed manifested in the flesh and not ashamed to call us His brethren. That the Son of Man, even the Son of God died and was resurrected with a glorified celestial body, so that we too in our resurrection we will be just as He.

No, we will not be "omni" as is the Spirit of God, of course not. Nevertheless, we will be with Christ in glorified bodies partaking of His glory in celestial form and will all be equally filled with the fullness of the Godhead bodily. We will not be “gods,” but we will be the sons of God and we will be one with God, with Him in us as He was in Christ . . . even as Christ prayed He would be in us.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.

After the millennium when death is destroy and there is no more need for Christ as Priest and Mediator, these roles will then cease by virtue of having been fulfilled. Through those ministrations “the Son” of verse 28 will have successfully brought (though I see no gender) many sons and daughters into glory partaking of His glory and sharing it freely with us. Yet He, the Son, Jesus Christ in celestial form will continue with us in an equality similar to husband and wife forever in eternal communion and bliss while the infinite omnipotent and omnipresent Holy Spirit of God fills us all in all. Then we shall know even as we are known.

These words I have written are grossly inadequate to communicate that which is in my heart (spirit?) concerning the elevation to glory God has prepared for the church, that we should be as Him (in His celestial form) fully engulfed and full of His Spirit. It even directs my heart to truly re-evaluate the significance of the eventual culmination of our being baptized into Christ and baptized with His Spirit.

Even to say as I did above, “an equality similar to husband and wife forever in eternal communion and bliss” is at best an feeble attempt to communicate what my mind, heart and spirit cannot now even begin to fathom. Concerning these things I feel as if His Spirit is today saying to me as Jesus did to His disciples, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now . . . These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time comes, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.”

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.

For a final reading -

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them^M that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he^J shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he^J shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he^M must reign, till he^J hath put all enemies under his^M feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he^G hath put all things under his^M feet. But when he saith all things are put under him^M, it is manifest that he^G is excepted, which did put all things under him^M.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him^M, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him^G that put all things under him^M, that God may be all in all.

Peace.

Many modern Bible scholars state that the passage of John 7:53-8:11 (also known as the Pericope de Adultera) is not really part of the orginal Gospel of John. While I definitely don't agree with this veiw, as I believe this passage to be inspired Scripture from the Gospel of John; I was wondering does anyone have a good defense for this passage or know of anyone who does? I would just like to be able to give a reasonable answer as to why I believe this (Colossians 4:6; I Peter 3:15). I did a search on the Internet but couldn't find much on these verses. Any help would be much appreciated. But I probably won't be back on Worthy til some time Wednesday the third, as I will be a little busy.

This is what I grew up learning, anyway - that ancient religions were a product of fear and ignorance of the human species.

Generally, right?


Well, I've been seeing some evidence that perhaps the ancient people weren't so stupid . . . nor so fearful.


Some time ago I was watching an episode on either History or Discovery, going through Archeology or tunnels - or forget which. But they had to do with people from Central or South America. Part of their religious rituals was to get drugged up on some concoction and then wander through a dark tunnel maze that ended with a room that had a large statue of their frightening-looking god. In addition there was running water. The impression was that it instilled fear on the people (drugged, walking through a pitch black maze, ending with a fearful image accompanied by the sound of running water).

The host managed to take part in a ceremony that invoved drinking this drug concoction from ancient times to note the affect it had on the senses. He could tell he was high, but did not notice anything too remarkable. However when he got back to his room, still high, he decided to do an experiment by turning off the lights and running the faucet. He noted that he felt a sense of power (rather than fear).


Last week I was watching Solving History on the Discovery Channel. I'm not sure if it is the same people or similar, but he was trying to solve the Nazca lines. He discovered (or presented the discoveries of) some very interesting things - which would take a while to go through. But towards the end it was brought out that the ground beneath the lines was compacted, like the people had actually walked along these lines time and time again (there was other evidence of this, and that it was a part of a religious ritual).

So although they don't know why they walked the lines and the figures, it was clear that it was religious ritual to walk on the lines (kind of like praying the rosary, only they walk the figure rather than passing over beads).


Putting these things together, I am seeing a pattern. For one, worshiping their gods wasn't a result of fear but empowerment. And although they were scientifically ignorant, they were not ignorant of the world and of life. Besides the intelligence it took to make such structures!


And that got me thinking about this forum and debates we have about religion. Atheists seem to regard religion as a product of ignorance and fear and that our intelligence is evolving out such things.

But as I am discovering these things about the ancient people, I'm not so sure the Atheists are giving these people's religious beliefs and practices enough credit. Nor that our intelligence is evolving out belief in the supernatural.

For it sure seems they knew something we didn't!