A Discussion on the Temple in Ezekial 40-48 - Worthy Christian Forums

Keep in mind that "every believer who ever lived" may be less than we think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Actually on a weekly and monthy basis according to Isaiah 66.

Yes.


Sounds good. I would ask that we actually thrash out what we have record of in Ezekiel. A few of the questions you put to me in earlier posts required me to speculate and give personal opinions about some of what will happen during the millennium, and so we might consider leaving speculations out of the discussion.

I have been reading Ezekiel 40-48 over and over, and could probably now draw from memory an approximation of what the Temple will look like, where its gates are, and the various rooms etc, and I have been praying and mulling over much of what we have only touched on briefly.

I cannot really see how anyone can think this vision is symbolic or representative of anything, because it just doesn't make sense without a literal interpretation...and slowly I am beginning to slough off some of my doubts about certain sacrifices being performed during the coming Millennial period...you will appreciate that for myself, and probably for many others who only dip into Ezekiel, the idea that animals will NEED to be killed in order to be OBEDIENT to the commands of the L-rd, is very difficult to fathom, and my vaguely-formed conclusion at the moment is that G-d requires it as a lesson to surviving Israel of how things could have been if they had been faithful in the first place, and the surviving Jews that now represent the Jewish people, go through the motions of these outward sacrifices, not to placate an angry G-d, but so that they may present a continuous memorial service that honours what the L-rd has done and how He has led them and always loved them.

Thus the only symbolism is what is represented by the sacrifices, and is so that the Jewish nation understand that it has always been the heart that G-d has been interested in, coupled with obedience.

I also believe that G-d is performing what He promised long ago...to be their G-d, and for them to be His people...and that as the Priest-King-Prophet rules and reigns over them, they will take His glory to the ends of the earth, and demonstrate that Yeshua is L-rd above everything.

Bearing in mind that before Jesus returns, the dead will rise, and any that love Him and are alive will also rise and meet Him in the air, I don't quite see how that fits in with the Millennial reign, as it seems to only apply and account for those that are of a physical nature, who will live, marry, have children and die...there is no mention of the resurrected people whatsoever.

A point I would like to try and clarify as well, is that you initially mentioned:-



and yet it clearly states in Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings and meat offerings and drink offerings in the feasts and in the new moons and in the sabbaths in all solemnities of the house of Israel he shall prepare the sin offering and the meat offering and the burnt offering and the peace offerings to make reconciliation for the house of Israel

So to some extent sin offerings for atonement are being carried out....in this case on a national scale, although they may vary from what has taken place under the Mosaic Covenant....which leads to another point.

Do you see another Covenant in operation here, with respect to the Jewish nation...in other words, the Mosaic Covenant has been fulfilled through the eventual and final offering of the L-rd Himself...but here it seems as if another sort of Covenant is being inaugurated where the Shekinah of the L-rd enters by the Eastern gate, to dwell among the sons of Israel forever, and He forgives them, and sets them apart and remains with them forever.(43:7 which also makes one think how is this possible if at some future date Satan will be allowed freedom for a time until his final judgment, and then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear)



I have never shied away from speculation, as it is often through the discipline and necessity of trying to form inspired opinions, that we are forced to look deeper in the Word, just to confirm if it really says the things mentioned, or indicates their possibility....I think this is especially true of what we find in Ezekiel....I would make a distinction between idle speculation, and what is hopefully sanctified speculation, where one puts down what you think is being said, always being open to correction and better exegesis. Ultimately the revealed things belong to man, and the hidden things remain with the L-rd.

Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever that we may do all the words of this law

The fact that you have different offerings being mentioned, including burnt offerings, sin offerings, peace offerings, and grain offerings would seem to indicate that this is not an atonement for sin. The passage does not say that he is making atonement for sin through any of those offerings. It simply refers to atonement for the house of Israel. It is my conviction that the use of atonement in connection with these offerings is not referring to expiation, but of consecration. It is obviouly providing a covering given that the Hebrew word "kaphar" is employed by Ezekiel.

I believe that it would contradict Scripture for this to refer to any atonement for man's sin. Hebrews 10 tells us that Jesus has provided, for all time, a single sacrifice for sin and there is no longer any more sacrifice for sin. So, it is my conviction that whatever atonement is provided through the sacrifices mentioned by Ezekiel, that atonement has nothing to do with sin.



I am not sure if this answers the question or not, but I do believe that the Abrahamic covenant and the Davidic Covenants are still in force, which are the foundation of Israel's restoration to the Land. The Millennial reign of Christ is a fulfillment of God's unconditional promises to Abraham and David.



I hear that. Good point.

I have been giving this some serious thought, and in a sense no sacrifice apart from the Lamb of G-d which took away the sins of the world was either sufficient or acceptable before YHVH, and I wonder if you think it is conceivable that just like David understood that G-d wasn't looking for the multitude of animal sacrifices to appease or please Him, but rather a broken and contrite heart...and yet the sacrifices were a SUBSTITUTE for the Lamb that would actually afford cleansing for the whole world....well in the same way, when the sacrifice system is set up again in Ezekiels Temple, isn't it possible that the sin offering is exactly what it claims to be, but is done in order to demonstrate what our Messiah has accomplished, and is a lesson in reverse, that now looks back and demonstrates to this surviving world, what has been accomplished through Yeshua.

It becomes a lesson, a ritual and a means to understand more fully the significance of all the L-rd has achieved....I suppose a comparison could be made between what is going to be inaugurated then, and what has taken place in such institutions as the L-rds Supper, (although I think it is seldom re-enacted with sufficient understanding to make a worthy comparison) or Believer's baptism...the point being that there is great significance to the setting up of this sacrificial system during this 1000 year period of the L-rds reign on earth...where He will be an actual King and presumably set up a one world government with everything focusing on and around Jerusalem and the Temple.
In particular it seems this whole system is rooted in the system that G-d initiated in divine detail with Moses at Sinai, and G-d will utilise the Jewish people to do things right this time.




I see what you mean...yes that is kind of where I am at in it all at the moment...I realise that both the Davidic and Abrahamic covenants and still in operation, and it does seem that their fulfillment can only be during this Millenial reign, and will thus fulfill a dual prophesy, of which the Jewish nation can only see the second part at the moment where Messiah reigns as King, because of their blindness in part to the suffering Servant.

QUESTION- What is the main objection to the whole idea of the Millenial reign of the L-rd and the setting up of sacrifices....is it purely that some people say it already occurred at the time of Nehemiah and Ezra, and that others say it is all allegorical? If this is so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, as it cannot have already occured and nothing like it has even been seen because the L-rd, has not reigned on Earth as the King yet. As for being allegorical, as you have already pointed out, and which I agree ther is no indication whatsoever that this is the intent of the text...and its very substance which includes particular attention to details, measurements and duties is too valid a point to dismiss lightly.

Absolutely. I had made a similar point a few years ago in a thread on this issue. Just as the sacrifices under the Mosaic system looked forward to to the future sacrifice of Christ, the sacrifices in Ezekiel look backward to what has been accomplished.

I had not mentioned that aspect this time around because my purpose thus far has been to demonstrate that firstly, it is not a return to the Mosaic system, and that secondly, the presence of a sin offering is not contradictory to the NT given the various purposes for the sin offering that do not include providing a temporary covering of man's sin.

I agree.



Objection to the Millennial reign of Christ and of the sacrifices, differ from person to person. For some, it is just such a foreign idea to the way they were taught, that they reject it completely. For others, it offends theological pride, particularly where Israel is concerned. The establishing of a literal Millenial reign means that God is not done with Israel, and that means that centuries of theology that maintained that biblical Israel was no more and has been replaced with a "new Israel" namely the church, would have been wrong.

Amillenialism, Covenant Theology and Preterism all maintain that there is no prophetic future for biblical Israel, and that we have been living in the Millennial era since the resurrection of Christ. From this perspective, the Old Testament is interpreted in light of the New, so that all of the prophetic blessings God pronoucned on "Israel" in the Old Testament were really about the Church. It should be pointed out that Preterism actually goes further and sees the current church age as the "New Heavens and New Earth."

The problem I see in all of that is that if we are living in the Millennium or in the New Heavens and New Earth right now, as a good friend of mine used to say, "it is the biggest failure in the history of of the world." Given how the Millennium is described and how the New Heavens and New Earth are depicted, something just doesn't add up. If Amillennialism or Preterism were correct in this regard, the world SHOULD be getting better. What we see is a world getting worse and worse. More people in the 20th century died from war, poverty, and disease than ever before.

That is why I look for a prophetic future for Israel. It is the view that makes sense in my opinion.

Shiloh....

1.Why do you think the altar in the Ezekiel Temple was made of wood?

When instructions were given for the altar to be built in the Wilderness, it was naturally to be overlaid with bronze, otherwise it would be burnt up like kindling.

2.How do you think the Millennial kingdom will differ from the Heavenly Kingdom, regarding the Jewish people? Or do you believe that this 1,000 years is specifically so that G-d can be seen to keep His promises, and They have a chance to get things right.

3.I am still unclear what the role of those that been raised from the dead will be during this time.....and what I find hardest to fathom out, isn't just the whole idea of sacrifices, but that we are meant to be raised 'incorruptible' and yet still inhabit a corrupted earth, that still groans and waits its redemption....the two don't match up, because I don't see a transition period.


4.Also I am wondering if the first resurrection involves only the martyrs and over-comers, and these are the Princes that help rule during the 1,000 year period....trying to work out a chronology that is biblically consistent, it not easy. I wonder if we sometimes miss what Scripture says with our systematic theology...just as the Jews with all their learning in the L-rd's day also could not see what was there in front of their eyes.


5.What else do you think is significant about the chapters we are looking at, and is important in how we view this revelation given to Ezekiel....why do we need to know it....how do we relate to it?
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1....Ex 38:1 Then he made the altar of burnt offering of acacia wood, five cubits long, and five cubits wide, square, and three cubits high. 2 He made its horns on its four corners, its horns being of one piece with it, and he overlaid it with bronze.


2....Matt 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 “But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.


3....Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body


4....10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev 19:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.