Worthy Christian Forums -> Doctrinal Questions

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.


Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
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Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

How do you understand the word "Godhead?" Is it biblical the way you do, or are you adding meaning to it?

Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead <theios> is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead <theiotes>; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead <theiotes> bodily.

<theios>

godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

<theiotes>

divinity (abstractly):--godhead.

It is clear from Col 2:9 that the entire “Godhead” dwelt in Christ's incarnation. The Greek word translated godhead has no implication whatsoever of a plurality, be it of multiple identities or of a compounding of nature. It simply means "deity," the essence of being a god. Yet it is continually misused to denote a divine board of directors to the point that word to even be defined as the Trinity because of its common acceptance, as OneLight did here.



I did not want to detract from the thread there so started this one.

The first word, <theios>, used in Acts 17:29 is used in these other verses -

2Pe 1:3 According as His divine <theios> power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine <theios> nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

As we can see in the verse above there is no indication of plurality. Below are other translations and how the words were translated -

American Standard Version

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of Him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even His everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

Ac 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.

Col 2:9 for in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

Bible in Basic English

Ro 1:20 For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, His eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, He having given the knowledge of them through the things which He has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing.

Ac 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.

Col 2:9 For in Him all the wealth of God's being has a living form,

Darby Translation

Ro 1:20 --for from [the] world's creation the invisible things of Him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both His eternal power and divinity, --so as to render them inexcusable.

Ac 17:29 Being therefore [the] offspring of God, we ought not to think that which is divine to be like gold or silver or stone, [the] graven form of man's art and imagination.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

Montgomery Translation

Ro 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, even His everlasting power and divinity, has been clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made. So they have no excuse.

Ac 17:29 "Since then we are God's offspring, we ought not to imagine that the Godhead is like to gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.

Col 2:9 For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily.

Revised Standard Version

Ro 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely, His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Ac 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.

Col 2:9 For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

Twentieth Century New Testament

Ro 1:20 For ever since the creation of the universe God's invisible attributes-His everlasting power and divinity-are to be seen and studied in his works, so that men have no excuse.

Ac 17:29 Therefore, as the offspring of God, we must not think that the Deity has any resemblance to anything made of gold, or silver, or stone--a work of human art and imagination.

Col 2:9 For in Christ the Godhead in all its fulness dwells incarnate

World English Bible

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of Him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even His everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

Ac 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man.

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,

Weymouth’s New Testament

Ro 1:20 For, from the very creation of the world, His invisible perfections--namely His eternal power and divine nature--have been rendered intelligible and clearly visible by His works, so that these men are without excuse.

Ac 17:29 Since then we are God's offspring, we ought not to imagine that His nature resembles gold or silver or marble, or anything sculptured by the art and inventive faculty of man.

Col 2:9 For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,

For what it is worth , let the reader determine, Wikipedia offers the follow Jewish definition of just the English word "Godhead." We know they see no plurality in it.

Wikipedia-

Godhead is the English-language term which in contemporary Jewish scholarship (and theology in general) is used to refer to "God-as-He-is-in-Himself.” This is the aspect or substratum of God that lies behind His actions or properties, i.e., the essence of God, and its nature has been the subject of long debate in every major religion.

Thayer says Godhead (theiotes) means, "divinity, divine nature," It is essential that we also understand the term inspired writers used to designate the Creator - "God." "God" is from the Greek theios which means "divine, deity." The Godhead, then, is divinity, divine nature, and the essence of God, simply stated. (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pg. 285).

Vine distinguishes between these two words: "Theiotes, the attributes of God, His Divine nature and properties; theotes indicates the Divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God" .
"Divine" (from theos, "God"), is used of the power of God, 2 Pet. 1:3, and of His nature, ver. 4, in each place, as that which proceeds from Himself. In Acts 17:29 it is used as a noun with the definite article, to denote "the Godhead," the Deity (i.e., the one true God). This word, instead of theos, was purposely used by the Apostle in speaking to Greeks on Mars Hill, as in accordance with Greek usage. Cp. DIVINITY. In the Sept., Exod. 31:3; 35:31; Job 27:3; 33:4; Prov. 2:17.(W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

Easton Bible Dictionary -"Godhead - the essential being or the nature of God,"

International Bible Stand Encyclopedia - "The fundamental meaning of "Godhead" is, nevertheless, no less than that of "Godhood," the state, dignity, condition, quality, of a god, or, as monotheists would say, of God. As manhood is that which makes a man a man, and childhood that which makes a child a child, so Godhead is that which makes God, God. When we ascribe Godhead to a being, therefore, we affirm that all that enters into the idea of God belongs to Him. "Godhead" is thus the Saxon equivalent of the Latin "Divinity," or, as it is now becoming more usual to say, "Deity." Like these terms it is rendered concrete by prefixing the article to it. As "the Divinity," "the Deity," so also "the Godhead" is only another way of saying "God," except that when we say "the Divinity," "the Deity," "the Godhead," we are saying "God" more abstractly and more qualitatively, that is with more emphasis, or at least with a more lively consciousness, of the constitutive qualities which make God the kind of being we call "God."





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John 8:1-8

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

A muslim friend of mine brought this up. He told me that Jesus broke the law here. Did he?

the foreknowledge of God knew that man would sin in the Garden or Eden..wonder why he later repented that he has made man...when he
new before had he would become a sinner..just a thought if anyone has any things that might shed some light on this?

I heard on radio on Mothers day reference to the human & spiritual agony of Mary as she ''looked on'' over the life & death of Jesus.

Many of the Church try not to elivate Mary above the status of an ''on looker''.

What can we learn of her role or place in the bible ?
Do suffering Mums have special comfort available through the Holy Spirit Can suffering Mums be waylaid in their walk to or with God by empathasising too closely with Mary?

I never quite understood why God included animals in the creation he had made that he greived. What had the animals done wrong? They are innocent and pure, unable to commit sin, arn't they?

I know He had Noah save a certain amount, but why kill all the others in the first place? Surely he could have saved them all if He so chose?

And what about sea-life? They would ofcourse, survive, so why allow them to live, simply because that is the nature of His choice of destruction?

I had some people pray over me tonight to receive the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues. I don't know why but now I feel like maybe I did something wrong by allowing them to do this. What if I don't receive the gift? Does that mean I don't have enough faith?

Then something strange happened before that. While they were praying and speaking in tongues over other people I felt this strong sensation come over me. It was like a wave that went through me. I felt dizzy/lightheaded and began having muscle twitches. Then my heart started racing really fast. I have NEVER in my life experienced anything like this. First I thought it was neat but then it scared me! Was this God or the devil? I'm so confused!

Are there any passages in the Bible that give an account of someone asking the departed for anything at all? Does anyone here know of anything like that being practiced by any body mentioned in the Bible?


If there are scriptures that deal with this would someone please post them for me?

I happened across one of their people at a local gas station a day or so ago. This guy sounded like a total stoned cultist with a canned answer for everything. These people don't even allow music in their services because there are no examples of music in the New Testament. Is anyone here familiar with the meatier portions of their teachings?

the "empathetic gift" ????

Hi, not on a witch hunt here, but I have been reading the bible for 26 years, as long as i have been a christian. I have never seen this in the bible, but I know someone who claims they have this as a gift from God. I understand standing in the gap, I understand feeling someone else's burden, but is this a gift.

I am thankful for any enlightenment on this. This person says they can feel someone even miles away. Far away in fact.

My heart tells me something is a miss, but I maybe wrong. Is this new age stuff or it in fact biblical.

Please don't crucify anyone, answer with grace please. I am not trying to tear anyone down, just want answers.

Thank you, God bless all who read. IN Jesus Name amen....

I apologize for my lack of knowledge. I came across a Jewish children's book that talks about the prophet Elijah returning. I haven't read this far into scripture yet. Can someone explain who Elijah is/was? Thanks and God bless!

So, if God wouldnn't contend with man back int he days just before the flood, what makes him willing to contend with us now? I know He made the Covenat and promised us it would never be broken, but WHY?

Surely, we are worse today than men were back then. We have so much more to tempt us.

But why would God be grieved enough about our actions to kill all but a few off, and then decide to never do it again? Where's the reasoning behind it?

As I go through the Bible again I am faced with many questions. One of the biggest is what explanation is there for the numerous contradictions in the Bible? Not just between the Old and New Testament, but the contradictions within the New Testament itself?

Also, this verse confuses me:

Matthew 16

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me. 25 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it. 26 And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?[l] Is anything worth more than your soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


If this is true, why are those people dead when Jesus has not yet come in his kingdom?

My boyfriend and I have been reading through the new testament and I need some explaination for this Bible verse here:

Matthew 15: 21-28

21 Then Jesus left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Gentile[e] woman who lived there came to him, pleading, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely.”

23 But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. “Tell her to go away,” they said. “She is bothering us with all her begging.”

24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”

25 But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”

26 Jesus responded, “It isn’t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.”

27 She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”

28 “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.

Why is it that Jesus compares this woman to a dog who does not deserve good things? After all he made a point of dining with tax collectors and 'sinners' - considered the lowest in society. Also, what is meant when it says that Jesus was only sent to help the people of Isreal? Does that mean that everyone else who is not of Isreal (namely most of us here) is just left out?

I'm certain this is just a lack of understanding on my part, so anyone who could clarify this for me would be most welcome.

is the best advice anyone can give to anyone wanting to understand the Bible.

Instead always read (at least) a paragraph, if not the whole chapter.

Not original advice, but from a booklet I got from an organization called Stand To Reason.