Worthy Christian Forums -> The Universal Moral Law

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, friends and colleagues,

The other night, I was lying in bed and I had a restless sleep. My mind kept racing through an endless loop of questions regarding the subject of, "Absolute Truth."

I have heard the arguments on both sides. They sound something like this:

Argument 1: Some people say that there is no such thing as absolute truth and what is true for me may not be true for you.

Argument 2: Some people say that absolute truth is absolutely true.

The question remains, how can we be absolutely sure about the absoluteness of absolute truth?

I personally have always believed in absolute truth. But for some reason, my brain wouldn't shut up and let me sleep -- My brain seemed to have a mind of its own and it wanted to absolutely define absolute truth.

During my restless slumber, I envisioned a flow chart (those who know me also know my fondness for visual aids). My mind raced through each potential process and decision until I could take it no longer.

I jumped to my feet, popped open my favorite flowcharting software (OmniGraffle) and I worked up the flow chart I had been dreaming about. Through the use of this flow chart, I came to a very interesting, LOGICAL conclusion regarding the subject of absolute truth.

I then opened up the New Oxford Dictionary to see how it defined the words, "Absolute" and "Truth." Within the definition was a reference to the Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus with a description for the phrase "The Absolute Truth." The definitions contained therein confirmed the conclusion that I had arrived at on my own.

Without further ado, I would like to share with you my findings in the form of a flow chart.

http://www.sonic.net/~caine/absolute_truth...olute_truth.jpg

Take a peek. I think you will find it very interesting.

Thanks for reading this far.

Sexually Indulgent Now, Marriage Ruined Later?
By Paul Strand
CBN News Washington Sr. Correspondent
Friday, March 05, 2010

AUSTIN, Texas -- Oftentimes those who preach sexual abstinence have been told to stop trying to impose their beliefs on others. But what if science could prove sexual permissiveness does great damage to future sexual happiness?

That's what Dr. Joe McIlhaney of the Medical Institute for Sexual Health in Austin says. New research shows that sleeping around now could ruin your chances of having a happy, fulfilling marriage later.

-----

Research using brain scans now shows powerful chemicals are released during sex that should create a powerful, everlasting bond.

"When women are skin-to-skin with a man, their brain secretes oxytocin that causes them to bond emotionally to that man. Men secrete a hormone called vasopressin when they're having that kind of intimate behavior. And that hormone has even been called 'monogamy hormone' for men. And it bonds them to the woman," McIlhaney explained.

-----

But that bonding, which acts like adhesive tape or Velcro, is weakened when people tear away at its power by breaking off with a sexual partner and moving on from one to another to another. So when it does finally come time to bond permanently with a spouse, the ability to bond is damaged.

"The brain actually gets molded to not accept that deep emotional level that's so important for marriage," McIlhaney told CBN News.

One huge result for the permissive is that, as McIlhaney explained, "When they do marry, they're more likely to have a divorce than people who were virgins when they got married."

Read full report, or watch video, here

I am unsure where in the 'outer court' I should initiate this conversation, but Apologetics seems most appropriate, and since this is inspired in part by a conversation happening in this "Universal Moral Law" subsection, I put it here. If this needs to move, I hope it won't become hard for me to find.

"You do/don't believe that, and that's your choice." -- This is a comment often made when discussing religious beliefs, but I think the idea of 'choosing' beliefs needs to be examined more closely. Most of my beliefs are not 'chosen', so the appropriateness of saying my beliefs on this or that religious matter are 'chosen' needs to be questioned.

Let's start by looking at some everyday statements of belief: "I believe Janet went to Target to look for shoes; she should be back in an hour or so." "I believe that Sydney is not, in fact, the capital of Australia." "I believe I have enough money to fill the car's gas tank." I think it would be very strange to consider any of these beliefs choices-- I don't see how I could just arbitrarily 'choose' to believe that Janet is skydiving, or shopping at K-Mart instead of Target. I can't just choose to declare my faith that Sydney is indeed the capital of Australia when nagging in the back of my head is that it might be Canberra, might be something else, but *just isn't* Sydney. I think I know approximately how much money is in my wallet, how empty my gas tank is, and about how much gas costs... I can't just choose to change these estimates without double-checking, and whether the double-check confirmed or altered my previous belief, I still don't see how the new evidence makes whatever resultant belief I have count as 'chosen.'

Often, when "Well you believe that, and that's your choice" comes up in conversation, there's an implication that I somehow *prefer* whatever belief I have to the alternative. This, too, strikes me as odd, because I often reach beliefs/conclusions/opinions that I wish were otherwise. Wouldn't I prefer to believe myself fabulously wealthy, a genius, and a world-class singer? In one sense, yes, except that that would mean I'm delusional. The evidence that I have available to me compels me to admit I am wealthy by world standards but not American standards, really smart but not genius, and a decent singer but not professional-grade, let alone world-class.

If I believe something is not the case, I don't see how I could simply 'choose' to believe it was the case any more than a person who hates coffee could choose to like it.

Why does this matter?

One is morally responsible for one's choices. I am not in any way denying that we make choices. However, if one's beliefs are not chosen (and I'm arguing that most of the time, in the ordinary sense of 'choice,' our beliefs are not), then believing X instead of Y is presumably morally neutral, neither commendable nor reprehensible in itself.

This matters because some Christians sometimes attempt to place a moral value on beliefs, and do so via the rhetoric that beliefs are 'chosen' somehow.

There is a moral world of difference, then, between saying someone somehow "chooses" not to believe Christian claims about Jesus, versus saying the person is honestly unconvinced by them. (I really value honesty, and think God does as well.) I'm arguing that "Well, they choose not to believe in Jesus" might be incoherent, and placing a moralistic burden where it does not belong.

Congressman Franks Is Correct -- Abortion Has Been Devastating for More African Americans than Slavery

by Staff
March 3, 2010

ATLANTA, (christiansunite.com) -- Dr. Alveda King, Pastoral Director and Director of African American Outreach for Priests for Life, commented today on attacks made on Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ) concerning his remarks on abortion and slavery.

"Congressman Franks' comment that 'far more of the African American community is being devastated' by abortion 'than were being devastated by the policies of slavery' makes a quantitative distinction," said Dr. King, the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "It's not a judgment as to which of the two brutal, inhumane practices is worse, but rather which has impacted more people."

"Examining the statistics of the Centers for Disease Control and the Alan Guttmacher Institute, one can estimate that 14 million African Americans were killed by abortion between 1973 and 2005," stated Dr. King. "That's 'far more' than the number of blacks who suffered under the horrors of slavery from our country's founding until emancipation. The last Census to count slaves in 1860 numbered them at 4 million. Even assuming short life spans, it's hard to see how the total number of slaves approaches the number of blacks killed by abortion."

"From what I've read, the people who attempt to criticize Congressman Franks for his words are people who think unborn black babies don't have the right to exist," added Dr. King. "That is the slave owner's mindset, namely that some people are less than human."

Full article


~~~


African American Leaders Outraged at Attacks on Congressman Franks

by Staff
March 3, 2010

ATLANTA, (christiansunite.com) -- When U. S. Congressman Trent Franks spoke about communities where over fifty percent of the abortions performed are on black women, abortion proponents called him a liar, again attempting to divert the attention away from the question of the abortion industry's targeting Blacks for abortion and onto mathematical analysis of whether he correctly divided the numbers. African American leaders are outraged.

Recently America has been faced with the question of whether the abortion industry is having an adverse impact on the black community. Ignited by the film Maafa21 and the Georgia Right to Life "Endangered Species" billboards, there is a rising belief that the abortion industry is following a long established practice of targeting the black community; locating its clinics in urban areas where blacks reside.

Instead of reassuring America that there is no racially motivated agenda to control the birth rate of the black community through abortion, the abortion industry has once again deflected the question, obscuring it in intellectually, politically and socially insulting dogma. The Black leaders say the facts are clear, and can be verified at such sites as www.protectingblacklife.org and www.blackgenocide.org.

"It is time abortion advocates stop the personal attacks. It is time they face us and renounce the racially discriminatory roots of the industry," said Catherine Davis, Minority Outreach Director for Georgia right to Life. "My people are dying and in Georgia we can point to the abortion industry as one of the leading causes of death of African Americans, 59% of the abortions in 2008 alone."

"The civil rights activists did not fight to make lynching safe, legal, and rare. They ended it. We must fight to end the ugliest form of racism: abortion," said Dr. Johnny Hunter of LEARN. "This womb lynching has caused more African American deaths than the Klan achieved in over 144 years."

"The truth is being told and that's what the other side is afraid of. Abortion is the number one killer of black people--we have to deal with that by standing up and speaking out," said Day Gardner, President of the National Black Pro-Life Union.

Dr. Alveda King, Director of African American Outreach for Priests for Life agreed, "How can the dream survive if the abortion industry is allowed to continue targeting black babies in the womb? I have a dream, it is in my genes, that this 21st century bastion of racism will come down."

Source

Just because God created us in His image doesn't mean He said that we are EXACTLY the same as He.

Food for thought. :whistling

Posted By Permission Of The Author
A Beloved Brother In Jesus
Love, Joe

>>>>>()<<<<<

"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." ~ John 16:33

Well my friends? What we've done is lay the basic foundation of understanding on which you can build your entire relationship with Christ in your own mind. Within this writ is the knowledge to renew your mind to some basic Truth's of who you are "In Christ".
•You are a "new creation" IN/BY CHRIST!
•You are TOTALLY forgiven, past, present and future, "IN/BY CHRIST"! Incredible!
•You are made totally righteous "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are already reconciled "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are redeemed "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are sanctified "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are justified "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are part of the Body of Christ, "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are a Citizen of Heaven 'IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You have eternal Life "IN/BY CHRIST"!
•You are totally loved by God, "IN/BY CHRIST"!
So, my Brothers and Sisters All... Whenever you hear this fellow say, "It's all Jesus!", the contents of this book, summarized by the list above, is part of the reason I say, "It's all Jesus". Truly my family, it is all Jesus. As a rule of thumb, if anyone tries to teach you anything that requires "YOU" to do something to retain your salvation? Drop it like a rock. That teaching is deader than a hammer my friends. It's all Jesus. It's not about me... you... us... It's about Jesus. You can pack alot of meaning into three little words sometimes, can't you? Amen.

Now do me a favor. Go back to the beginning of Chapter One and read the part about the butterfly again... especially where the butterfly and God were talking... Read it slowly... Does it take on a different meaning to you now that you've read of the transformation Jesus has provided you? If it does, then the Truth in this book will be of growing and great benefit to you throughout the remainder of your earthly life. It would be best to read and re-read this book, time and time again, taking notes and praying all the while, until the reality of who you are in Christ has become who you are! My God... I have never, and will never again, experience anything like it in my mind, heart and spirit! I do pray this becomes a reality for you too!

Before we go, I'd like to tell you of a real experience I encountered just a couple of weeks ago at the time of this writ (01/25/2009):

Due to circumstances beyond their control (maybe), I ended up with a dog. The name given her in her puppy hood was "Geish". She's some sort of Alaskan dog... very big... very powerful. To humans, she is the best natured dog! She's all the time acting like a puppy, wanting to play... plenty of energy...

But when another dog of any type or breed enters her domain, to her, one of them must die. You see, in her youth, her taskmasters were hard. They used her to dog fight. She was trained early on that every dog that comes within reach wishes to kill her... therefore she's learned to kill... It was the only way she could survive. It's like the natural part of her wants and is so loving and kind... But her nature has forever been altered because of the training she received when she was young.

Now it's needless to say, I must keep Geish tied at all times. I hate tying a dog or confining any animal. To me, it's a sad life for any creature to be all bound up, not free to do that which God intended. But because we live in a community of others, there is no choice. She must be kept, bound up by chains and 3/8 inch steel cable because of her gruesome training in her past.

Well a couple of weeks ago, and don't ask me how she did such a thing, she snapped the 3/8" cable that held her. My daughter Kalla was the first one to notice it. As she called us all to come and look, I could not believe my eyes to see her sitting across the creek here at my home (where she always stays), with about a 3 foot section of the cable still attached to the leather collar around her neck. She was walking around in her open lot just like normal, within the confines normally afforded her by her restraints... SHE DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS FREE!

Of course I realized I had to replace the cable IMMEDIATELY! So I immediately went across the creek to splice the cable together so she could be temporarily restrained until I could get a replacement. As I approach her when taking her food to her, she always comes to the limit of the restraints and bounces up and down of her front paws, excited because I am coming. She always pulls against the cable while she bounces, wanting to come further.

But not this time. As I approached her this time, she came to the usual place where she was usually stopped by the cable. I thought to myself, "Here is when she'll realize she is free, and I'll have a very hard time catching her." But I was amazed as she stood in that very same place, with nothing holding her back nor standing in the way of her freedom, and bounced up and down just like usual. She never made an effort to go any further than the usual spot. She never knew she was free, so her opportunity passed her by without her really even realizing it.

But you know what? Later that day, my splice broke. Again she was free... Again, she didn't realize it. I found another cable designed for a smaller dog that would restrain her until I could get a replacement. Once again, I went across the creek. As I approached her, I again wondered if she would figure out she was free. You know what? She did.

The second time I went to her, she went the limit as usual, then in her excitement, she went a little further than usual. About three feet further as a matter of fact. Suddenly, she forgot the excitement of seeing me coming as she realized for the first time that there was nothing holding her... The realization came slowly to her, thank God. For I would have never caught her had she bolted from me. But her excitement was building as she went further and further with her head down investigating everything with her nose that she had not gotten to investigate before! Finally, she knew she was free...

Sadly, I had to tie her back up because her past is still who she is.

So why do I give you my two week old dog story in such a lesson as this? Because even at the very minute I first saw Geish standing in her lot with her chains broken... even at the very second I was amazed she was still there, thinking herself trapped by things of her past... The Holy Spirit ever so clearly spoke to me and told me so, so very many people are the exact same way!

Some of you are trapped in the circumstances of your past. All of us are so different, with such different pasts... Our circumstances can vary greatly, but as with ALL error... all error in understanding leads to nothing else but bondage... in your mind you may be chained more tightly than Geish ever has been.

Some of you know not the Christ. Some of you may have even been trained up to hate Christ... trained to curse His name... trained to shed the blood of those who love Him... To you, I tell you with absolute certainty that Jesus loves you and He wishes to bring your heart unto Himself... He wishes that you would invite Him into your heart as your Lord and Savior. The Christ wants you to "turn to Him". You see, when you turn to the Christ, you also turn your back on everything you ever were in yourself... all your former beliefs... all your former faiths in whatever god you were told to worship... all the bad you had ever done... turn your back on it all. After all, really, you never had a love for any of it... It despises you... Therefore my brothers and sisters, turn your back on all of it and turn to the Christ! Invite Him into your heart and everything mentioned in this book will IMMEDIATELY become a part of you, growing daily in you, until you too, are gathered unto Christ and the rest of us at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb!

Christ has already dealt with all the bad you've ever done! If the Holy Spirit knocks at your heart's door at this very moment? That is the reviving power of The Holy Spirit bringing your heart to life enough to make your choice! DO NOT turn The Christ away now! He may never return unto you! Get on your knees right now, where ever you are and say this prayer along with me, but also? Have the meaning of these words in your heart as you cry out to The Christ!

Oh Christ! Oh my Lord Jesus! Right here, right now, there is a brother or sister of mine on their knees under the unction of the Holy Spirit seeking You Jesus as Lord and Savior! Receive the heart of this brother and sister of mine that they will be saved! Eternal Life in heaven will be theirs! Life on earth will be possible! Listen to their heart as I lead them in their prayer of heart unto You, The Christ!

(Please repeat this prayer with me and have it in your heart):

My Lord... At least I want to call You "MY" Lord! To You, The Christ I call out right now in my desperation. All my life I have believed nothing, or I have believed a lie. Jesus, I no longer believe these lies. I have a strange thing within me telling me You are my Way, my Truth and my Life! Oh Christ... I have been such a curse upon the earth! I have been such a sinner... such a bad person...

But I have been told, and I believe, that You will forgive me and forget about all that, and that You will fill me with Your Spirit so I can start in all newness of LIFE! I am told You will make me... different. You will make me alive, where I have been dead. You will make me into who YOU want me to be. You will provide for me everything I need to have a real relationship with You!

To The Christ, the Son of God, I believe You died a horrible death to pay for all my sins. By doing so, I realize You took Your own Father's wrath for MY sins, and the sins of the whole world! Oh God I can't imagine anyone ever loving me enough to do such a thing! You suffered unimaginable WRATH, being deserving of none of it, just so I might Live... forever! Thank You for such love as that, for me.

Oh Jesus... The Christ! I believe You are the most powerful Son of God! I believe all other gods to be false! I humbly ask You into my heart! Oh God! I turn my back on everything I have been and I turn to YOU alone for my salvation... for my very LIFE! Come into me Jesus! Come into me, The Christ! Fill me with the Promise of Your Holy Spirit!

Ohhhh God... The Christ! Thank You! Oh Lord! My Lord... Thank You! Oh my Lord... The Christ... From this moment on... I love... and I follow... only You!

To the Christ only, will I ever pray from here, on. Praise be the Name of The Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ! Amen & Amen!

My brother or sister? If you just said that prayer above, with the meaning of it in your heart, you have been saved! Your salvation is already complete. Jesus holds you never to let you go, and The Holy Spirit has sealed you unto eternity. It's hard to grasp, I know... But true, never-the-less. As far as your salvation goes? It's all Jesus.

There is yet another group I'd like to address. These are my brothers and sisters in Christ that have given their hearts to Christ and are born again children of God... yet they have yet to understand, without error, the terms of who they are "IN CHRIST". There are a great many among the modern day church that erroneously think they have certain things that are their own responsibility to uphold to "keep" their salvation. These people think it possible to lose their salvation... their eternal life in Christ. Folks? Salvation is from God. Anything from God is eternal. If one could lose their salvation, nothing about their life could be called eternal. We'd have to scratch the word "eternal" out of our bibles and replace it with "temporary", or add the word "possibly" to eternal. That's really kinda silly isn't it?

But for these people, I pray for courage.... Courage to take a new stand in your knowledge. It takes courage to admit you've preached error for maybe over 50 years in your ministry. I did for 12 years. What's the difference between you and I? Nothing. In all cases, all we can do is man up and make our new found knowledge of the Truth part of our personal testimony of God's faithfulness to bring us to the understanding of the Truth! It does take courage... So I pray for all of you that struggle in this manner my friends.

Now all that remains is for you all in whatever your back round, is to begin your life-long process of learning and growing in the knowledge of Truth in Christ. Please... begin this book all over again. Your mind has begun a "renewing" process to where it will consecutively and progressively be brought from it's darkness into the Light. This book... or better said the Godly Truth herein, will help your mind understand Godly foundations, on which all things spiritual will be built. It does not matter how long this takes. What matters is that every Truth offered up here for your understanding become a part of who you are. Spiritually, it has already happened. That is all Jesus. But struggling with your own mind (the flesh), is an ongoing process in which you will be victorious with the faith of a mustard seed and The Holy Spirit to guide you into Truth and away from error. In the Spirit, we have already been given all things (Ephesians 1:3). But your flesh will have to learn of it before you will be free in your mind. For concerning the flesh, it is not the Truth alone that sets you free... It is the "knowledge" of the Truth that sets you free to peace that surpasses all understanding and in the Joy of your salvation through the love you'll know God has for you (John 8:31-32 ; Proverbs 23:7 ; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

There will be a great and beneficial by-product of gaining this knowledge in Truth also. Where once you were trying your best to "positively" love yourself and others in mimicking to the best of your ability the love of God, now, you can know the REAL love of God. THAT will enable you to REALLY love your enemy, instead of just "trying" or "pretending" to, to the best of your own ability. This is a short paragraph, but I'm describing something right here that will transform you in every way... if you'll let it... if you'll stop long enough to think about what I'm saying... God's love toward you is the key that opens the heavenly floodgates, my friend. I pray you find these keys, and use them.

God bless you all in your quests, chasing after the very heart of God. I trust when you get there, you'll find it quite different than anything else you'll ever encounter.

I love you all. God bless, keep and protect you all... mentally, physically and spiritually. May you always follow the path of Truth, without error. Bless the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that provided all this to us.


~~Amen & Amen!~~

If we are nothing but chemicals and matter operating because of chemical reaction, then there is no real love... its just a chemical reaction making us feel funny things... an illusion.

If we are nothing but part of an impersonal process, it doesnt matter who lives or dies or why... there is no tragedy, and the human race then becomes a nightmarish sociopathic mess.

Atrocities are not evil, there is no real good

This philosophy is Neitzche to perfection... and he died disease riddled and insane

i have finally gotten around to reading the book 'darwin's black box'. interesting stuff. in pondering on the facts about gene mutations, etc. causing diseases, hereditary defects and the like, i think back to God's statement that on the day they eat of that tree, "they shall surely die".

i think, perhaps, they did die. in some way. physically, not just spiritually. that God revived them and at that time put their bodies in operation with all the various molecules and atoms of the cell, the dna & rna, etc. we know their bodies must have been different after they ate - thus, the sudden realization that they were naked. voila, a temporary life to give mankind another chance.

i'm interested in your thoughts about this matter and any other insights gained by anyone who has read this book or another like it.

Is there such a thing as "absolute" good or evil? Why do you think so?

I wasn't sure.. but hopefully this is the appropriate place to put this...

So I've been reading Mere Christianity, as so many Christians seem to hold it in such high esteem. This is the second time I've read it, the first being a brief skim through when I was about 15. But looking more in depth to what he is actually pseudo-philosophizing, I find that the argument from an absolute moral law doesn't really impress me so much. I don't want to get into an argument as to what the moral law IS, or what it entails, or even whether it exists - but about where it might come from. (Sorry, but being an atheist, bible verses recommending god as the source aren't very convincing)

But the argument seems to go like this:
a) there is a moral law
b) if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver
c) there is a moral law giver (i.e. GOD)

My rub, of course, is with B. But before I start in... it'd be nice to hear your thoughts on it. Is there any way you can justify this (what I would call a leap of) logic?

Yes, I typed this earlier but decided to post it as a topic so that I could get a legitimate response.

If God smote Sodom and Gomorrah (plz don't kill me on spelling, I do not have my bible on hand) for the homosexual acts committed there, does he love the gays? Or were they just so far gone that God knew that they would only pervert the world? What?

Why do I need your God to live a healthy, happy, meaningful life?

A simple question:

Are we morally responsible for what we do or don't believe?

"For nearly a decade, Dr. Jack Kevorkian waged a defiant campaign to help other people kill themselves.

The retired pathologist left bodies at hospital emergency rooms and motels and videotaped a death that was broadcast on CBS' "60 Minutes." His actions prompted battles over assisted suicide in many states.

But as he prepares to leave prison June 1 after serving more than eight years of a 10- to 25-year sentence in the death of a Michigan man, Kevorkian will find that there's still only one state that has a law allowing physician-assisted suicide — Oregon." -CNN

Well, looks like the rider on the Black horse is out again.
Can a Christian commit suicide if terminally ill and in great pain? Would that be taking a huge risk for it could be a sin?

Christian morality isn't just absolute; it's dichotomous. The Christian universe is morally black and white; things are ultimately good or bad.

But an increasing number of moral gray areas have popped up to challenge Christianity's monochromatic premise of morality. This thread will be devoted to the discussion of such anomalies.