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#1991466 Why I Post Bible ~ FresnoJoe

Posted by on 24 August 2013 - 12:57 PM

March 10, 2007


In my question to Christians I said I was not being curt or snide but asking an honest question. If I offended you somehow, I apologize for that but still believe the question to be legitimate. I quote Scriptures all the time but, have learned to add their meaning and relevance and personal conversation in exhortation and friendly talk. The reason is they are just words and makes us the appearance of "Bible Thumpers" through scripture but no Living Water with them. The Word says His Word will pour out of OUR Bellies like Living Water. Without that, they are like "tinkling brass" most times. If anyone of us look back to those who reached our hearts before we came to Christ, we see it was a real application of Scripture in Words with His Word Living in them yet, not changed from their meaning. That is my point and I believe Jesus' point when He talked of Living Water. Look at His conversations with people, lowly non=educated common people. They were amazed at His conversation because they heard the Law in the Temple read by the priests and scribes But Jesus brought them to Life as did All His disciples/Apostles. Thing about it..

Blessings in Jesus,

Brother Ron Cruise



Point taken brother.
No offense.

Ron, you are a true brother.
Our Lord has some purpose in our discussion which will bring Glory to Him.

"A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."
(Proverbs 25:11)

I know my Lord and He always leads me besides still waters and into the pastures I need.
It may have taken 23 years or so, but when He moves, it is perfect. :24:
God also has an amazing sense of humor and I am beginning to laugh at myself as I see a little of what He is doing with our dialog.

Yes Lord and Amen!

He is so dear maybe I can sit at His feet for a few billion years or so and just drink Him in before I get busy with whatever He has for me to do!

I lead with my heart, so be assured brother, an honest answer.

I am not impressed with my words nor with the words of man.
However, My soul paints for His Word.

The Bible Bot in Chat is a personal favorite of mine at Worthy.
I would love to see it tag a Bible scripture at the end of each post on the boards.

The only thing that has saved my life since I was six years old is The Word of God and The God behind it.
God put the Bible into my young hands and people into my young life to teach me to read it.
The KJV was my reading primer when I was five, six and seven.
This was one of the first verses planted into my heart and it has never left me.

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."
(Psalms 119:11)

The Christian parents in my young life brought extreme pain and suffering to me but God never left me nor did He ever forsake me.
I love them dearly and pray for them in their old age (Dad is slowly dying) and I look forward to spending eternity with them as I do with secondeve and emeralgirl should God be Gracious unto them and they respond. Cartwheels before The Throne?

The Bible was where I learned to truly love.
It is the only reason I still have a marriage and a passionate one at that after 37 years with my sweetheart!
It is the only reason I knew how to love my baby boy.

It is the reason I quit drinking stone cold when I got angry at my wife 28 years ago while drunk.
It is the reason I just quit smoking last summer after 46 years of a pack-a-day non-filters with no patch, no desire to quit and no conviction of sin!
I just wanted to get even closer to Jesus down here because He hasn't taken me home to Him yet.
Quitting cigarettes was all of Jesus and none of Joe.

The Holy Bible was a Mother's love and a Father's council to me as a child.
It is my everything and, along with the wife of my youth, my comfort as I grow old and feeble.

The WORD through The Word is the most precious thing I have to offer the dear folks at Worthy.
Scriptures are my lifeline to God's Love and I post them out of love.

Please forgive me one more time but I do need to check the "tinkling brass" reference.
The fruit of abiding in Jesus!

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Yes and Amen Lord!

Dear Brother, these "Bible Thumping" Words I post are the very words of life, love and hope to me.
I do not get the same joy and instructions from any man or woman until they begin to speak Bible Words.

It breaks my heart and grieves my spirit to see the tossing out of God's Word throughout the "civilized" Christen world.
Many of the through-the-Bible verse by verse Churches today, speed read the Bible in the evenings and talk and talk and talk incessantly about their personal views and their personal life in the morning "application" service.
They used to show Jesus with every sermon even in Books like Leviticus but the anointing has left them or I came on the wrong days.

I am too old and sick for this nonsense so I fall asleep and then I snore and my wife has really sharp elbows so I can't sit there any more and my ribs still hurt! There are other health issues which also keep us away.

I hope and pray Christians will share God's counsel with any unsaved friends they love and fellowship with at Worthy.
I would hope and pray the unsaved would nail their Christian friends to the wall until they receive a true understand of who Jesus is and why He is the most important person ever to walk the earth and why it is needful to act now!

I know God says it far better then I can and, without posting The Word I'll probably get it wrong but here goes!

Sin is real and more deadly to the soul of the sinner than the venom of a viper and it is totally nasty in God's sight and cannot be in His presence.

Hell is real and eternal.

All have sinned.

God The Father so loved the sinner that He laid the lashes for all the sins upon His Beloved Son to save the few who will receive His Gift.

Jesus, God The Son, totally without sin, so loved His Father and the sinner that He went to and stayed upon The Cross and became sin and took all the lashes needed to full pay the sin debt of the whole world to save the few who will receive His Gift!

All you need to do is to turn away from your nasty old sinful self, repent of your nasty old sinful self and receive God's gift by faith.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)

Which you can't even do by yourself except for The Holy Spirit drawing you to God and convicting you of your horrible sinfulness and Jesus' total innocence and totally breaking your heart for what you have done!

Perhaps you are correct brother.
My Heart will not allow me to past by a lost and hurting person without leaving a few of the Words of Life.
Maybe I should just give in and change my user name to Thumper!

A new apologetics is settling over Western Christendom.
One where God's Holy Word is not welcome, period.
Although Worthy has some of these young "Christian" Turks swarming around it, this apostasy has not and I think will not strike deep into the Worthy Boards or Worthy Chat.

You can discuss science, weather, news or anything you desire and you can quote anything or anyone except extreme profanities and most all obscenities but you can not post any Bible scripture whatever.
We have young ones coming onto Worthy claiming Christ as their Lord and Savior but hating God's Word and actively trying to stop it's appearance at Worthy.
They have poled the unbelievers on other web sites to discover what they are comfortable with and then these "Christians" actively campaign to keep all Bible quotes or any Christian references to "creation" off "their" boards here at Worthy.

It's the strangest thing I've seen outside of a cult!
Like some made-up fake Antichrist bolted together by a Frankenstein committee of Atheist Adults and Bible-less, Jesus-less teenage Church kids claiming to be Christians.
He is a all evolutionist, all symbolic Bible and all science is the savior of earth and Mankind but, somehow, still he is "Christian".

Ron, I am truly saddened when I hear the Words of Jesus which are life to me are just thumping to the lost and the hopeless!
You and I both know what a closed Bible means and it is a heart breaker!.
When I see this reaction, it does break my heart and sends me to The Throne and to plead for The Word and The Holy Spirit to act upon the Heart.

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:"
"The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:"
"The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace."
(Numbers 6:24-26)

"And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." (Numbers 6:27)

Love, Joe

  • 13

#2158001 My adoption, how I see it

Posted by Logan on 17 October 2014 - 01:07 PM

A friend asked me something the other day that really made me think.

He said, "Do you think being adopted has had an effect on the way you see God, as opposed to someone who wasn't?"

When he asked me that, my first thought was, "No, it's nothing special.  God's the same to everyone."


However, the more I think about that, the more I realize it isn't true.

Some people put God in a box; they believe that He can't possibly solve their problems.

Some people are still trying to "win" Him over by their good deeds, though they have been believers for years.

Many people see someone altogether different, although we're all looking at the same God.

I realize that I will never, ever understand God, because His ways are higher than my ways, and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts.

(Isaiah 55:9)


With that being said, one thing I have learned about God is that He truly loves all of His children.

"How deep the Father's love for us How vast,beyond all measure."

That He should give His ONLY son To make a wretch His treasure"


How true that song is.

He loves us SO much, that it simply cannot be measured.  

He only had one begotten Son. He gave him up, sacrificed a part of Himself, to make all of us wretched, hopeless people His treasure.

That sure does sound like adoption to me. Giving up parts of yourself to treasure a child that wasn't yours from the beginning.


Another characteristic of God reflected by adoption: unconditional love.

If you've been adopted, and you didn't receive unconditional love from that, my heart hurts for you.

I did receive that, and it truly is amazing.

I pushed my parents away time and again, and I know I hurt them deeply with my rejection.

But don't we do that to God every day? And He never gives up.

Thank God they didn't give up on me. 


Consider this:

Do you think that a child, or anyone for that matter, can comprehend a God that gives unconditional love,

that will never give up no matter how many times we push Him away,

that will NEVER abandon us, if they've never been shown it?

I don't. My adoption HAS changed the way I see God.


You see, when someone has been abandoned, they have all these doubts and insecurities.

Being adopted didn't magically fix this. My understanding of what that truly means, with my parents and with God, did.

No magic. Just the understanding that I was chosen, even though I felt that there must be something wrong with me.

My parents chose me. God chose me, although I am dirty, shameful, and inadequate.

I revel in that! How amazing it is to know that I don't have to do it all, because I can't! But He loves me anyway.

He chose me as His son, and He will always take care of me.

I know my parents can't always take care of me, but I know they will never stop trying.

I understand that God picked me up out of my insecurities,


He didn't let go, and He changed my life. "...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." -Luke 12:48


If you have much, love on some kids. Adopt them, or foster them.

It won't be easy, actually it'll be really hard. But it's amazing being loved by a parent who didn't HAVE to love you.

God calls us all to do just that.

James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."


Thank you, Dad and Mom, for loving me unconditionally even though I put you guys through it over and over.

I will never be able to express how thankful I am, or how loved I feel.

  • 12

#1985084 Trust God, Not Circumstances

Posted by GoldenEagle on 12 August 2013 - 10:54 AM

Hope this encourages some of us that are going through the storms of life. Remember God is good. Even in the storms of life God is good. :)

God bless,


Trusting God in the midst of bad circumstances

I had this realization that seems really obvious, but for some reason it took me a while to get it.

I should be just as confident that things are going to work out when they look crazy as when everything looks fine and dandy. The opposite is true as well. Even though things look peaceful and calm, that is not an indication of security. Our security comes from God. It is not at all dependent on what is going on around us. Whether it is the economy, our finances, our children, our marriages, we can (and should) trust God with all of it.


Romans 8:2
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

It just dawned on me recently after going through a faith test that it really doesn’t matter whether it is easy or difficult to trust God. As my circumstances began to “look” better, I noticed myself trusting a bit less in God and a bit more in myself. After all, my circumstances weren’t requiring as much faith. I kind of slapped myself a bit and realized that I am no less dependent on God when things are going good as I am when they are going terrible.

The good circumstances are only an illusion of security. When things look good, it is easy to understand how things will all work out. But isn’t it amazing how quickly I can go running back to God in faith when things look bad again? I quickly realize that “good circumstances” provide no true security.

The great news is that for believers, bad circumstances are only an illusion of a lack of security.


Trust God in the storm

It reminds me of Jesus sleeping on the boat during the middle of the storm. He said, “let us go to the other side.” But yet when things started looking bad enough, they started to doubt that would happen. The truth is, no matter how bad things looked, they were just as secure. They had God in the flesh on the boat with them! How could they really think that they wouldn’t make it?

Mark 4:35-41

On that day, when evening came, He said to them, “Let us go over to the other side.” Leaving the crowd, they took Him along with them in the boat, just as He was; and other boats were with Him. And there arose a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Hush, be still.” And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. And He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?” They became very much afraid and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?”

When they finally were freaking out enough, they woke Him up and frustrated with their lack of faith, He told the storm to calm down. They just didn’t get it. They didn’t realize who Jesus was. They didn’t realize that it didn’t matter how bad it got, He was there with them.

It is no different for us today. We have the promise of God that He will never leave us, nor forsake us. It doesn’t matter how bad things look, it is merely an illusion. Don’t be deceived: when your trust is in God, you could not be more secure.



  • 12

#1922328 Split... "Homosexuality?" Restoration & Correction Techniq

Posted by Steve_S on 21 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

I have a question here with regards to this. Does every single person on this board agree on every single doctrine? If you are a child of God you agree with God, right? Let's ask how many people here are, how many are posttribulationists, how many are pretribulationalists, how many are amillennial, how many postmillenial, how many young earth, how many old earth, how many gap theory, how many day age theory, how many are Calvinists, how many are Arminianist, how many are any number of the possible combinations of the two?

I've read this thread over and over again and quite honestly I've had some time to consider it and I've attempted to be measured in my response. Flatly, I believe that calling a new Christian who was a MILITANT atheist 7 months ago and who the Lord could very well be working on right now dead in their sins is just wrong. How many people here right now have sinned since they were saved? I know I have.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I'm here to tell you right now that some of these questions that new Christians face affect them directly in their every day lives and God's timeline for bringing someone into greater and greater understanding isn't our timeline. We have to be patient and loving and not accusatory. He's not practicing that sin. I understand that it's a touchy subject and I also understand that the church (Body of Christ) is directly under attack from a lot of homosexual organizations right now, there's no doubt about this at all. They don't like what the Bible has to say on it and that's fine. The Bible says what it says. The point I'm really making right now is that some of these moral questions Biblically are incredibly difficult for new believers to work through and we should be lovingly pointing them in the proper direction and encouraging them, not calling them dead to sin and casting them aside. If they are dead to sin they're going to go anyway.

This whole thread makes me sad more than anything. There's division about all sorts of topics across a number of spectrums within the church, right now. I take "if you are a child of God you agree with God" to be a blanket statement covering all things and quite honestly, out of the topics i listed up there I doubt there are any two people in this thread right now who share complete agreement on 5 of them and, if that's actually the case, then, at most, only 1 of us "agrees with God" (and probably none of us). If you were referring specifically to homosexuality, I'd be opening to you pointing me to the scripture that states that this is the case, specifically.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying homosexuality is not sinful, because it very much so clearly is. This post isn't about that. It's about how we approach a new brother in Christ with regards to doctrine. The very first response he got: If you see no moral problem with homosexuality, you are indeed dead in your sins.

I would much hope (and expect) that in the future that if a new believer is clearly wrong about a topic that the first thing we do isn't condemn them, but at least attempt to understand why they believe what they believe and then attempt to disciple them towards a better understanding through the Holy Spirit's guidance.
  • 12

#2172748 Observations from A Waiting Room

Posted by ncn on 11 December 2014 - 12:03 PM

The other day I was sitting in the waiting room to have radiation therapy observing others around me.

The staff walked around with large smiles and pleasant manners.


All around me heads with wigs that didn't quite sit right were buried in newspapers, word pads and mobile phones.

Someone got up to go and get a cup of tea.

Others were accompanied by a friend or a family member trying not to look embarrassed or worried.

Carol my nurse was browsing some dreadful woman's magazine.

Small polite conversation, faces that conveyed the,” Wish I was not here”, were all around me.


It’s strange how we all deal with different circumstances.

We can say or even think that when the going gets tough we will stand up and be counted.

Where do we really draw our strength from?


Psa 28:7  The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.


Hang on moment!  


Ever tried singing in this waiting room?


I mean it smells of death, this is the last place anyone would wish to come and sit in for a cup of tea or to pass away a few hours in the day.

It's depressive  , it's the anti camera,(anteroom) to something else. 

Only sick people come here, why would you wish to be here? 

Even the colour scheme is appalling,,, not to mention the curtains,,, as for the tea , it doesn't bear talking about.   



A young nurse comes and calls my name,

I go and change into some ridiculous gown that lets the wind contact you in places that the wind has no place to be.


Stepping out of the cubical, I hand over my possessions, keys, wallet and Iphone.


The phone bleeps, it’s a text message from Fez in South Africa,,,,, I grab the phone back to read it.


Text message quote,

“I am in the middle of Makuze game reserve, off road and by myself.

I pray that you feel the peace in your soul that this place conveys to me Nigel. 

Green, cool , the sound of birds everywhere and a wilderbesast snorting in the distance. No other sounds.

You are not alone. GBU.”


I place the phone back into the bin and climb onto  the table,,,,,

the complicated mechanism of the bed and laser lights are adjusted.

The rooms lights go down and I'm left alone,,,, music is softly playing in the back ground; classical as per my daily request.


My mind wanders, I can feel the peace.


Isaiah 41:10

10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness


God never leaves us, not for one moment, we just have to know where to look for HIM ,,,,,,,,,,,and really,,,

Let me tell you,,,


He is just a prayer away; HE supplies our every need even through the smallest text message from a friend. 


Oh,,.and yes,,,, you can sing in this place ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I did.  :biggrin2:

  • 11

#2117122 Let's Post!

Posted by Hippie333 on 15 June 2014 - 05:23 PM

Shalom and Heyas Gang!

  You know, I am one of those that is so truly thankful for Worthy Forums and the Worthy Chat room.....I have been here for going on 2yrs now, and continue to be blessed over and over from the people in all areas here. There are so many here believers and non-believers alike that bring an incredible amount of fellowship, learning and study to the table we all sit at here. I really enjoy some of the depth and theology in the topics. I also feel so touched by the prayers offered and said for others here in the prayer area....so much love to be found. I really do appreciate all the hard work done by all the ministry staff here ( Chat Admins, Board Admins, Watchmen, and Platinum) ....they do sooooo much behind the scenes..not just moderating but in personal one on one ministering, listening and doing all they can to try to serve the Lord here. It's a tough job, mentally draining sometimes....and it's all volunteer work...( free ). That being said...and being one of those blessed to ask to serve here....

  I have something to ask of everyone here at Worthy. I know we truly believe what we believe....and we so want to help others, teach others, reach out to others....that it can get pretty heated in the discussions here. I am OK with that...it's passion for what we believe....and if I did not see that here, I would probably not have stuck around so long. I just ask......please, please, speak to each other with kindness, compassion and LOVE for one another. Sometimes it seems that we are so focused on speaking the truth to others, that we forget how we need to DELIVER that truth. The very second we say something in truth but with no love and kindness in our words...we shut the door. Yes, we do...it's sad but true and sadly enough it's not rare. When we speak the truth, and are absolutely right....if we go about it the wrong way, we are still wrong. So that love that Christ asks us to have for one another, I think....should be on our hearts and minds as we post.

  Now....also, if we speak with just love and blur the truth to not hurt feelings, or make someone feel better....we are wrong there as well. We cannot withhold the truth...and just speak love and kind words, I think we all know where that can lead. When that person gets the truth after going a while being told something different...it can be spiritually a slap in the face, confusing and damaging to them. I know we don't want either of these types of things to happen....so we have to walk that thin line, between Love and Truth....the truth strong enough to stand, and show the way...and the love to open the hearts and be let in. We have time here, on the boards and even in chat, to slow down a minute and think about what we say, before we say it. So, let us do that....even when the other person is not doing that. Let it go, forgive and be the light or truth and love that Christ so wants from us.


Anyway Worthy Peoples! I love you all, I love seeing the Holy Spirit speak thru others here....I love the fellowship here....I just want to see God's Holy Holy Holy Word.....cherished and spread here in a way that truly edifies Christ Our Savior!


God Bless,



Matthew  22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew  22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew  22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew  22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew  22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

  • 10


Posted by shiloh357 on 07 January 2015 - 11:20 AM

I don't this is a case of witchcraft.  It is a case of fraudulence. It sounds like these preachers are just greedy and trying find sheep to prey on.   Anytime a preacher asks for money in exchange for a blessing, run from him as fast as you can.

  • 8

#2180528 It's too cold for color TV.

Posted by ncn on 07 January 2015 - 10:36 AM



We have a heat wave.

The shops have run out of sun block and the queues at the only shop who have some to sell, require police control.

There are miles of motorists  blocked in traffic jams as the people flock to the south coast to avoid the heat.

Shops have closed and people have been warned not to go out during the mid day sun.

The underground has come to a halt due to the track buckling in some places under the heat.  


I have ordered ceiling fans for the house and posted an urgent appeal in the Telegraph  for a new house keeper to fan me.

Wrote a stern letter to my local MP complaining of global warming, asking him to raise yet again in the house the question as to why;

we have allowed the Welsh to  globally warm us?

(One feels the need to lay the blame somewhere)  :whistling:


Later, I shall more than likely take my bucket and spade down to the banks of the river Thames and have a paddle.

Ice cream will not be an option but rather a necessity. 


(I should also point out that I have a fever and could be talking nonsense.) 


  • 8

#2154671 anyone watch that show

Posted by RustyAngeL on 04 October 2014 - 12:16 AM

I hate that show.  No respect from the kids to their parents, the daughter has the morals of an alley cat, the son is always hunting for women and the parents are always insulting each other.  No thanks.

  • 8

#2141147 Joel Osteen. False Prophet?

Posted by ayin jade on 22 August 2014 - 06:10 PM

The bible does tell us to avoid false teachers. 


The bible does tell us to leave milk behind and get on meat. 


Osteen is milk only, at best. He preaches a false prosperity doctrine and will not openly say that one needs Jesus to be saved. To me, that crosses the line between minor doctrinal differences to a major doctrinal error. One that can cost folks salvation. After all, if he refuses to say one needs Jesus, then how will folks know they need Him to be saved?

  • 8

#2121383 What's So Heretical About Preterism?

Posted by shiloh357 on 28 June 2014 - 04:27 AM

There are 10,000 different variations of Christianity.  Most are welcomed here no problem, even some stuff that is weird by my standards.  Once the Preterist view is brought up, for one it gets erased in my experience.  Would someone care to enlighten me how this view cannot coincide with being an acceptable Christian?

Not only is it based on bad hermeneutics and bad theology,   Preterism is an assault on God's character.   Preterists believe that God is finished with the Jews and that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus, all of the covenantal blessings made to the Jews have been transferred to the Gentile Church.


This is problematic theologically because it means that God is unfaithful.  If God transferred all of His promises to the Jews to someone else, then God was not faithful to the Jews and if that is the case, if God was unfaithful to the Jews to do what He promised then on what basis do we have any assurance that God will be faithful to us?


They view all prophecy as mostly symbolic.   When it comes to the prophecies of the end of the age, for the whole world, the preterist views this as the end of the age for Israel, not the whole world.  Thus everything in Revelation is interpreted through that filter.  The destruction of Babylon, for example in Revelation 18 is the destruction of Jerusalem which they correlate to the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70 AD.  


But in Revelation 18, the destruction of Babylon is mourned worldwide by world leaders and by all of those who were major business owners who profited through their association with Babylon and by those who profited by in the shipping and distribution industries.


Jerusalem doesn't fit that description. No one mourned the destruction of Jerusalem.


The HUGE issue for preterists is the bodily second coming of Jesus.  The bodily second coming of Jesus is prophesied more than the first coming of Jesus.  Yet for the preterist the second coming of Jesus was symbolic for the fall of Jerusalem.  They see the destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of the second coming and in their view ends or sums up all of prophecy.    They see all of prophecy as merely poetic and symbolic, so that nothing you read is as it seems.   From that perspective, interpretation of Bible prophecy becomes arbitrary and the reader is free to make anything he reads to be "symbolic" without any justification from the text. 


The beautiful thing about Bible prophecy is how so much of it has already been fulfilled, literally as written.   When we look at the prophecies already fulfilled by Jesus and fulfilled historically to Israel and other peoples, we see an unmistakable pattern of LITERAL fulfillment.   The prophecy about the city of Tyre and its final destruction can be historically verified.  The prophecies of Jesus' virgin birth, sinless life, ministry, death, burial and resurrection are fulfilled literally, to the letter.   There fulfilled prophecies about the return of the Jews to their historic homeland that are fulfilled historically to the letter.   This nullifies the view of preterists that prophecy is nothing more than symbolic poetry.


And this really goes back to the faithfulness of God, again.   God is glorified when we can point to who He is and what He has done. God's character and operations form the basis of both our faith in Him, that we can trust His character, but also our hope, our eager anticipation for the prophetic promises He has yet to fulfill.   It is the fact of fulfilled prophecy that provides us with a testimony of God's faithfulness.   If prophecy is purely symbolic poetry as the preterists claim, then there is nothing for us to anchor our hearts to.  Notice the following Scripture:


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
(Tit 2:11-14)


If prophecy is nothing more than symbolic poetry, then this passage in Titus makes no sense.  Here Paul is calling Christians to purify themselves in view of Christ's coming.  Why, if the second coming of Jesus is just symbolic of the destruction of Jerusalem, would Gentile Christians need to purify themselves in view of Jerusalem's destruction?


Secondly, since this Titus was written before 70 AD, would the original audience understand that Paul was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem?  How would they have interpreted any reference to the second coming of Jesus as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem?  The answer is that they couldn't have interpreted in that way.


So Preterism violates historical propriety in how it views prophecy.  One important rule of thumb in biblical hermeneutics is that a passage of Scripture cannot mean today, what it didn't mean back then.


There is historical evidence that second century (100-200 AD) believers viewed the second coming of Jesus as still future and interpreted the Scriptures that way: 


16:6 Then appear the signs of truth. With the first sign, heaven opens, then the sign of the sounding trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead.
16:7 Yet, not of all the dead, but as it is said : “The Lord will come and all his saints with him”.
16:8 Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.


Many of the early church fathers viewed the second coming as future to their lifetime as well.


So even the Christians who lived nearly a generation after the destruction of Jerusalem did not see the destruction of Jerusalem as fulfilling the prophecies of Jesus' second coming

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#2117972 I like gays

Posted by Butero on 18 June 2014 - 09:22 AM

That comment, "I like gays," doesn't make any sense to me.  That is like me saying, "I like straights" because a lot of them are nice.  You can't take a group of people and make generalizations like that.  There are a lot of homosexuals that are in your face militants.  I would be more inclined to say that I like friendly people as a whole, and I don't care about their sex life.  It is amazing how today, a person's identity is determined by who they are sleeping with. 

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#2074657 A word about debate tactics

Posted by ajchurney on 23 February 2014 - 08:37 PM

I have greatly enjoyed my time reading, posting, and meeting folks here on worthy. There is one thing, however, that I have struggled with as of late, and I decided to start my first thread to see what everyone else feels about this. I appreciate so many of those who contribute here that I cannot think of a better place to share these thoughts and hear the responses.

In a couple of the threads, I encountered something that I believe is simply not in the spirit of Christianity. I am talking about aggressive, secular form of debating.

One of the qualities of a man (or woman) of God is that they are to be “easily entreated.” We are also not to be a disputer or bring division amongst the brethren.

I perceive that there are certain posters who are trained, either at the secondary or college level in debate rhetoric. Two of my sons participated in debates, and my older one is graduating this spring with a pre-law degree. I am a bit familiar with how this works. I will try to explain why I do not think that this has any part in the discussions of scripture here on Worthy.

The goal of debate is to win the argument…..period. The debaters are often given subjects they do not even believe in, because the important thing is HOW you argue, how you present your points, and how you tear down and discredit the views and points of your opponent. 

The only goal here at Worthy should be to use our knowledge and gifts together in a spirit of unity and love in order to arrive at actual truth. The goal of debate is to win at all costs and to be excellent at the methods to produce the win.

My concern is that some are using secular debating tactics to both defend their own positions and to tear down with ruthless disdain the views of others. One debate tactic is to ignore any good point or difficult to answer question that is posed. Instead the debater will use a diversionary tactic of picking on any small point, even something they know is absurd, in an attempt to escape from any exposure to a weakening of their own argument. The result here is to suppress truth. The point of discussing theology is not to be personally right, but to arrive at absolute truth, even if….especially if this proves me to be personally wrong! A Godly man invites and treasures correction that exposes falsehood or deception and brings in truth.

A dead giveaway that someone is in this debating spirit is that they rarely, if ever, voice real agreement with anything that is presented by one who is “against” their point of view. This kind of person only wants to find fault and criticize the one who dares to question their point of view. This is NOT in the humble and meek Spirit of Jesus Christ.  This sort of person also is not seeking to find any possible compromise or middle ground, since this could make their view partially wrong or incomplete, and therefore they do not WIN. Truth is all that matters, and none of us has all of it. Few of us have all truth on even any one subject or doctrine!

In conclusion, I want to publicly declare that I want to step out of any of this debate rhetoric that I have walked in. I also invite the posters on Worthy to hold me accountable for this if they see it working in any of my posting.

Blessings to all, Andy 

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#1887795 A word from this Ministry - Please Read

Posted by OneLight on 21 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

What is going on lately? Why is there so much discord/division? Why are there so many personal attacks, insults and downright disrespect toward each other?

I have been asking these questions to myself as I read the reports and check threads of interest. I wanted to blame it on the intensity of the election, but the election has passed and this still continues. I have only my imagination to measure how the results have affected people’s lives.

I do know one thing. God is preparing this world for the return of His Son. When I look to Scripture for a description of how the world will be, it is much uglier than what I see today. Yet what I do see is an escalation to what He tells us will happen. I am concerned that if we, because of just one election, become so quick to judge and cause pain, what will we be like when it continues to get worst? I have to shake my head due to the images this question brings to me. I do not like what my imagination shows.

We are His children, whether or not we agree with who should run the country, what we should pay for taxes, who does what to themselves, and how disturbing the future looks as we remember our past. We are not these things, though they have an effect on us if we allow it. We need to continue to seek God and follow His directions. We need to keep our focus on Him and what He has called us to do.

So, how does all this relate to my questions? I am convinced that we in ministry cannot continue to allow things to get too far down the wrong road before we step in. At one time, members used to work things out after a few posts, but that is not what I have been seeing in the past months. So, I ask everyone to do the following:
  • If you know you are butting heads with another member, be the first to offer an olive branch and be the peacemaker.
  • If you notice that you are getting heated by another’s response, walk away from the thread until you know you have His peace back in your life over the issue.
  • If you feel strongly about an issue between you and another member, offer to debate it in the Soap Box forum so the two of you can focus on each other’s response and not all the other posts of those who want to be involved.
  • Check your attitudes as you post, ensuring that what you are posting is exactly what you want to post.
  • Watch your words. Using passive aggressive statements are just as cutting and demeaning as an outright insult.
  • Ensure that you are discussing the issue, not the person.
  • If you have a personal statement to another member, take it private and remain respectful.
  • Take the time to ensure that what you think someone is saying is what they are saying, not reading into another’s post.
  • Ask questions for clarification when a statement is unclear instead of assuming you know what someone is saying is advisable.
  • Back up your words with supporting Scripture. If you don’t, one could easily see a post as “cause I said so”, which goes absolutely nowhere.
  • If you witness a wayward post or thread, please report it. We cannot be everywhere at once and there are far too many threads to read through to catch everything. I would rather have to filter through many reports then to have anyone think we are playing favorites by allowing a member to blast another member, or that a topic is allowed when it should not be.
  • Always seek the guidance from the Holy Spirit as to how to reply to a post.
  • Last, but far from the least, post as if you are posting to Jesus, because He is with you and everyone else.

We are trying our best to turn Worthy into a place where heavy discussions and debates are without any insults and attacks. If you are not already familiar with our Terms of Service or Statement of Faith, please do familiarize yourself with them both.

By taking time to become aware of what you are posting is a start. We will not accomplish this overnight, but by taking one-step at a time, we will all feel safer about who we are and what we believe. I know that when I have a wall up, which is the result of negative posting, I am not going to accept any correction I may need that is brought to me through the one who is insulting me while offering me truth.

The other side of the coin is that if we find people continuing to attack and insult, we will be restricting them from posting for a few days so they can consider their actions. In the past, all we had was Mod Review or a ban. By placing someone on MR, we had to spend a lot of time reading continued insults and attacks, sometimes at us for taking action. This has taken too much time from the forums, so we are trying to step back from this and allow people time to think things over. I have personally had to take a few days off from the site and seek the Lord for a refreshing on the Fruit of the Spirit in my life and to ensure that the words I use come from Him and not my flesh. I suggest others consider doing the same before things come to a point where we have to move you in that direction.

I encourage all of use to learn to step back from our posts before we hit the “Post” button and read what we are about to submit as if we are reading it for the first time with no preconceived idea of what was written. This will help to ensure that what we are about to submit is what we really what to say. Nobody can read anyone’s mind, so clarity of thought is essential for correct understanding.

Here are a few closing verses to keep in mind when posting.

Colossians 4:5-6 (NKJV)

Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Galatians 5:16-26 (NKJV)

Walking in the Spirit

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Ephesians 6:10-20

The Whole Armor of God

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
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#2220607 "Worthy"

Posted by George on 23 May 2015 - 06:13 AM

That is interesting George, and that is a verse I have always found to be fascinating for a couple of reasons.  First, we are to pray always that we will be accounted worthy to escape the things to come on the earth, but what exactly do you think that means?  Are we praying that God will change us by placing us back on the potter's wheel and making us into someone worthy to escape as a result of our prayers?  What does it mean to be accounted worthy?  Most are claiming we are all automatically worthy because we simply prayed a sinners prayer or had a born again experience, and think we are worthy regardless of our lifestyle.  Since you started the ministry with that verse in mind, I would love your thoughts on this. 


My second question is what is the escape?  Do you believe that means the rapture?  I have always thought it did, but many don't seem to believe there is a rapture.  The only other escape I could see that is possible is death, and why would we pray to die to escape those things?  Again, I would love to have your thoughts on this.  Thanks George, and I look forward to reading your response.  God bless. 

To answer the first question -- that we may be accounted worthy.


First of all, there's NOTHING we can do to add to the sacrifice of Yeshua (Jesus).  If we think we can add to it -- then we've missed the whole understanding that we are saved completely 100% by grace! 


The illustration that I use in Israel is every Friday night we gather light the candles and break the bread and the wine. 


As I break the bread, I salt the loaf -- as is custom in the Jewish culture and explain the significance behind it.


First of all -- Yeshua said He is the BREAD of life!  And when we break bread -- we're reminding ourselves once again of how His body was broken for us!  He NEVER once called anyone to be the BREAD!  So this understanding -- that He alone is the sacrifice -- this will remove spiritual pride -- and come to the perfect understanding that in the eyes of God -- it's HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that we can approach boldly to the throne of grace!  There's nothing we can do to add to His righteousness!


2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


This is how we gain favor with God -- not in what we have done -- but what His Son has done for us.  This is why we ask all things in HIS NAME!


However, what's the salt part of the covenant?


The covenant of salt is used 3 times in the Bible -- and it was used in marriage -- in a pact of loyalty -- and salt was always precious!  For example we get the term -- he's worth his salt -- comes from how the Romans paid their legions with salt!


Jesus never called us to be the BREAD -- he alone is the sacrifice -- but HE DID CALL US to be the SALT!


So when I salt the bread -- I'm reminding the body in Israel that we play a part in the covenant!  We're not only reminding ourselves of the body that was broken for us -- but we are renewing our loyalty to the Lord -- we're renewing our marriage vows to the Lord!  We're going to strive to live a life of holiness and righteousness -- knowing that it doesn't add to the sacrifice -- but rather it adds the flavor the world so desperately around us needs to see!  If the salt have lost your flavor -- then it's worthless and good for nothing!  You will never change the world -- or the people around you for the Kingdom! 


However, if you realize that your holiness and righteousness is not to "gain favor with God" but rather to "gain favor with God and WITH MEN" so that you can change the world around you -- you'll never look down to anyone -- instead -- you'll look at them as God looks at them -- and this will always place us in a position of humility and loving our brothers as ourselves.


So when you understand the relationship in the covenant -- then when we live a life of being SALT to the WORLD -- you are seasoning the world for the harvest -- in this way may we be found WORTHY!


AS to the meaning of ESCAPE these things.  Personally I believe there's a great shaking coming to the world -- insomuch so that if we're not living a life of holiness and righteousness -- then we will find our houses under collapse.  However, if we're living a lifestyle of holiness and righteousness -- then I believe we can preserved in the midst of the storms that are coming! 


Noah was not taken out of the flood -- but preserved through the flood!  Shadrach, Meschach and Obednego were not taken out of the fiery furnace -- but preserved through it!


As Yeshua said, "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one."


What does it mean in its entirety -- it's a mystery that we will fully understand when that portion of Scripture has been unsealed to us.  Until then, may we find ourselves worthy to escape these things!

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#2210701 The Whole Doctrine of Hell - My Uncertainty... Here's Why

Posted by bopeep1909 on 14 April 2015 - 11:39 PM

God does not send people to hell.People send themselves to hell because of their choice not to believe in Jesus Christ.Everyone in this world needs to ask themselves a question.Where do I want to spend eternity?heaven or hell?oh and by the way.....hell is very real.It is to Satan's advantage for a person not to believe in hell.

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#2206874 pot stirring - halfway houses

Posted by Steve_S on 31 March 2015 - 11:15 PM

If it is me, I hope those people do well in their recovery and recognize their right to occupy that property just as I have a right to occupy mine.

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#2198516 Yoga Warning

Posted by shiloh357 on 02 March 2015 - 04:44 PM

The problem with yoga (any part of it) is that it cannot be detached from its paganism.   Yoga means "joined together."  It is referring to being joined with the Hindu god Brahman which is nor really a god, per se.  It is more like a force and it brings you into union with the universe.   The "stretching"  and sitting the lotus position is all about being in union with the Hindu god/force.   You can't really separate it out or compartmentalize it.  It doesn't work that way. 


Participation in Yoga is participation in pagan worship, and it doesn't really matter what your intentions are.  Yoga is not what we make it.  It is what it is, and it is unpleasing to the Lord for us to participate in something like this on any level for any reason, according to His word.

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#2198132 Yoga Warning

Posted by shiloh357 on 01 March 2015 - 11:31 AM

Play with fire long enough you will get burned.  A lot of people who end up in sin didn't necessarily intend for that to happen.  The biblical ideal is to get as far away from sin as we can, not see how close we can get to the edge without falling in.

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#2192696 keeping the sabbath holy

Posted by Butero on 10 February 2015 - 07:31 PM

Based on what I have read in the Bible, I believe that the reason the church meets on Sunday, rather than Saturday, for the most part, is based on a tradition that goes back to the early church.  The Jews would meet on Saturday, and many of the early Christians would continue to go to their meetings.  Even Paul would continue to go to the synagogue, so the Christians would have church meetings on Sunday, the Lord's Day.  The Sabbath itself was never moved from Saturday to Sunday.  There are references that indicate the early church would meet on Sunday. 


Are we required to rest on Saturday?  That is another one of those issues that has divided the church.  My personal opinion is that the rest for the Christian is the rest we enter into when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and are relieved of those heavy burdens of sin we were carrying around.  I am referencing a teaching is found in Hebrews chapter 4:1-11.  Seventh Day Adventists will actually use the same passage to defend the requirement to rest on Saturday, but I believe they are misinterpreting it.  The one thing I do know for sure is that there is no scripture that teaches us that Sunday is a day of rest, or that teaches the "Christian Sabbath" was moved to Sunday.  If there is still a requirement to observe a day, it has to be Saturday.  If I was starting a church, I would probably meet on Saturday, because it is the seventh day, but I don't personally believe God commands Christians to observe the seventh day as people did under the law of Moses.  I am open to listen to anyone who wants to claim otherwise, but from my personal studies, I have concluded the true Christian observes the Sabbath when they trust in Christ and cease from sin.     

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