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What a partial preterist believes


Bold Believer

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Contemporary "Partial Preterist View"

A.D.70

A coming (parousia) of Christ

A day of the Lord

A judgment

The end of the Jewish Age

Still Future

(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days) The Coming (parousia) of Christ

The Day of the Lord

The Resurrection of the dead

The Rapture of the living

The (final) Judgment

The end of history

This should clear up hopefully the confusion as to what a partial preterist believes.

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.... Contemporary "Partial Preterist View"....

.... The end of the Jewish Age....

.... This should clear up hopefully the confusion as to what a partial preterist believes.....

Never

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:26-29

Ending

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:13-17

Grace

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:16-20

Maranatha~!

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.... Contemporary "Partial Preterist View"....

.... The end of the Jewish Age....

.... This should clear up hopefully the confusion as to what a partial preterist believes.....

Never

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:26-29

Ending

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:13-17

Grace

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:16-20

Maranatha~!

Fresno Joe is like the guru on Worthy. :21: Love you Joe, don't know your point, but love you.
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.... don't know your point, but love you....

:thumbsup:

The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination

Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel

Or With His Earthy City

Jerusalem

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Shalom, FresnoJoe!

.... don't know your point, but love you....

:thumbsup:

The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination

Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel

Or With His Earthy City

Jerusalem

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thank you for those kind and TRUE words about Isra'el and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! I am a "partial preterist" of sorts, and with all due respect to R.C. Sproul, there is NO end to the "Jewish Age!" We are STILL in the "Jewish Age" today, and within the gap between when Yeshua offered Himself as God's MASHIACH - God's MESSIAH - God's CHRIST - God's SELECTION - to be Isra'el's King and when they finally welcome Him back to BECOME Isra'el's King. This is the time period when Yerushalayim is overrun by the Goyim (Gentiles) and when Goyim are grafted as "wild branches" into the Messiah's "Olive Tree" along with the "natural branches." Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

And, in verse 39, He was quoting from Psalm 118:22-26:

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

The Hebrew of that phrase (transliterated) is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," which means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YaHWeH." The Hebrew (transliterated) of "Save now" in verse 25 is "Y'hoshah na," transliterated into Greek as "Hosanna!" And, while the children and His few disciples said those words when He entered Yerushalayim circa 28 A.D., the cohaniym, P'rushiym, Levi'iym (priests, Pharisees, Levites) and the rest of the Sanhedrin did NOT! THEY were the ELDERS of Y'hudah (Judah), and they were the ones who were SUPPOSED to lead the tribe into accepting their King! They didn't just FAIL to do so; they REFUSED to do so! (The builders refused the stone!) So, Yeshua` left them "desolate" (as Gavri'el predicted He would in Dani'el 9:24-27)! However, Yeshua` effectively said that one day they WILL welcome Him, and according to the prophecy in Psalm 118, they will do so "out of the house of the LORD," which suggests there must first BE a "house of the LORD" or a Temple!

Of course, I believe that you already know all this; I'm just repeating it for any who are reading along.

But, every Christian should have heard within the Christmas story the words of Gavri'el (SAME MESSENGER!) to Miryam (Mary):

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

Thank you again!

Edited by Retrobyter
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.... don't know your point, but love you....

:thumbsup:

The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination

Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel

Or With His Earthy City

Jerusalem

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

That's the most I've heard Joe say since I have been on here.

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Contemporary "Partial Preterist View"

A.D.70

A coming (parousia) of Christ

A day of the Lord

A judgment

The end of the Jewish Age

Still Future

(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days) The Coming (parousia) of Christ

The Day of the Lord

The Resurrection of the dead

The Rapture of the living

The (final) Judgment

The end of history

This should clear up hopefully the confusion as to what a partial preterist believes.

You're right, it clears up a great deal of confusion and reveals why you are so deeply entrenched in this doctrine.

First off, there is no such thing as "the end of the Jewish age." This reveals the true roots of any form of preterism, be it full or partial and the roots of Amillennials. Those roots are 100% antisemitic, as I have pointed out all along. The problem with it is that you and your friends like R. C. Sproul, who is a fairly recent convert to the world of preterism, Hank Hanegraaff, who used to be a good guy till he fell into this trap, and Gary DeMarr, who is a really unhappy guy, all think you have cheated Israel out of something when you haven't. Do you think God is going to go according to your sloppy and prejudiced doctrine? Your partial preterism can write Israel out of history, but God won't. End-times doctrine, no matter which kind one embraces has no sum effect on God's plan. He is going to redeem Israel and keep His promises to them. Every single one. Your replacement theology isn't going to change that.

You realize that your doctrine has a major flaw, right? Your doctrine has Jesus making two returns. You have Him making his 2nd Coming in 70 AD and a 3rd Coming some time later, even though you claim He's already here. He is returning to someplace He is already at. Not to mention your doctrine is missing the Millennium completely.

Wow.

Now...I must agree with Retrobyter and others: here's why.

The phrase "End of the Jewish Age" is a misnomer. God isn't done with the Jews. The proper phrase ought to be "End of Types and Shadows." We no longer need sacrifices, and more specifically, it was Messiah who put a stop to them (Daniel 9:27). Why? He became the sacrifice once and for all. The destruction of Jerusalem over its abominations didn't put an end to the Jewish people, but the Jewish system and leadership. The kingdom was given to a nation producing the fruit of the Kingdom of God (Mt 21:43). The Pharisees even realized that when Jesus said those words, he was speaking of them.

So then, the Church didn't REPLACE Israel. It replaced the Israeli leadership. Jesus replaced the old priesthood with a new one: US. The Gentiles get to share in the promises because of Christ, we're grafted in. Israel is temporarily on the outside looking in.

As for the idea that there are two comings: Hogwash. Yes, the word parousia means coming, but then so does erchomai. The events of 70 AD were not the Second Coming. They WERE a coming in judgment. God came upon Israel in judgment numerous times throughout the Old Testament. Pre-tribulationism has 3 comings if you want to look at it that way:

1. The Rapture (the secret snatching away)

2. The Cataclysm (end of the tribulation and most commonly associated with the Parousia)

3. The coming at the end of the literal millennium in flaming fire

When it comes to the millennium, I personally believe the millennium was what pre-mils call the Church Age. Christ rules from heaven (the New Jerusalem, seated on David's throne) over the earth. Chiliasm (the idea of an earthly millennium) was considered a heresy in the Early Church by the way. Jay Adams' The Time Is At Hand is a small book that explains the idea of realized millennialism very well.

By the way, where did you ever see me (or any other partial preterist) state that Christ is here (as in literally here)?

And what is this 'cheated Israel out of something' you mentioned. I'm lost there. The inheritance comes through Abraham's seed, and that seed is Christ (Galatians). If Israel wants the promises, she has to come to the Heir. There is no dual house here, it's all through God's prescribed way. Israel will get the promises, but she will get them through Messiah, and not until she believes.

And do you accuse me of being anti-Semitic, Cobalt? There's a laugh. Anyone who has ever read my posts knows I support Israel for being the most righteous nation in the Middle East. I don't support Israel based on the chosen people doctrine; we (Believers) are the chosen people and the royal priesthood (Peter).

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.... don't know your point, but love you....

:thumbsup:

The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination

Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel

Or With His Earthy City

Jerusalem

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

That's the most I've heard Joe say since I have been on here.

Joe gets pretty wordy when he's passionate about a subject....of course, it's always the Lord. :)

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Guest shiloh357
And do you accuse me of being anti-Semitic, Cobalt? There's a laugh. Anyone who has ever read my posts knows I support Israel for being the most righteous nation in the Middle East. I don't support Israel based on the chosen people doctrine; we (Believers) are the chosen people and the royal priesthood (Peter).

For the record, Cobalt did not call you anti-Semitic. He said, and rightly so, that Preterism, partical preterism, Amillennialism (and I will also include Covenant Theology) were all rooted in anti-Semitism. That does not mean that every one who holds those views are necessarily anti-Semtic, but they all have one glaring thing in common. They all hinge on removing Israel/the Jewish people as the chosen people of God.

Peter did not mean to be understood that God had somehow transferred the status of "chosen people." To the Church. Christians mistakenly think that "Chosen People" means "favorite people." They misunderstand it to be some kind of exalted position or rank. That is a misunderstanding of what chosen means. It refers to be chosen in the same way your boss chooses you to complete a task.

Israel/the Jewish people were chosen by God to fulfill a task that they have not completed yet and won't complete until the millennial reign of Christ upon the throne of David begins.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

This passage from 1 Peter is often cited by replacement theologians to prove that the Church is the new Israel of God because of the use of such terms as “chosen generation,” “royal priesthood,” “people of God,” etc., which were originally used to refer to Israel. My response to this assertion is three-fold.

First of all, simply using Israelite imagery is not sufficient grounds for claiming that a nonIsraelite entity is in fact, Israelite. It is not uncommon for the Bible in both old and New Testaments to use Israel imagery when speaking about nonIsraelites but yet they remain distinct from Israel. Dr. Mark Vlach correctly observes:

Yes, language used of Israel in the Old Testament is used of believing Gentiles in the New Testament. But similarity with Israel does not mean identification with Israel. There are occasions in Scripture when “Israel” imagery is applied to non-Israelites without these non-Israelites becoming Israel. Isa 19:24–25, for instance, predicts that Egypt would someday be called “my people.” Yet, the context makes clear that Egypt is distinct from Israel since Egypt is mentioned alongside “Israel my inheritance.” So, even in the Old Testament it was predicted that non-Israelites would someday carry some of the titles of Israel without becoming identified as Israel.

In Romans 9: 24-26, Paul by the Holy Spirit sees the purpose of God in the calling of the Gentiles and he bases this off of Hosea 2:23, which reads:

And I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'" (Hosea 2:23)

In both the Old and New Testaments we find nonIsraelites referred to as "God's people" yet mentioned in distinction from Israel. What we do NOT find ANYWHERE in Scripture is any reference or even an implication that there is a "spiritual Israel.” What we do not find are any references to Gentiles being identified with Israel. What we do not find in 1 Peter is any remark that makes reference to a "new Israel" or "spiritual Israel" that displaces biblical Israel. Nowhere in the New Testament are believers identified as "Israel" spiritually or otherwise. They are a part of Israel, the Kingdom of God, but they do not displace, replace, supplant, supercede (whichever term fits), national/biblical Israel.

Peter is drawing from OT Israelite imagery to demonstrate how believers were to conduct themselves among the pagans. The OT priesthood and other aspects of the Israelite nation are used as object lessons as points of reference and a broader, more spiritual application is made to believers. Just as Israel was sanctified from the nations to be a holy nation and royal priesthood unto God, those concepts are reiterated in a more broad application with respect to Christian conduct.

  • Christians should see themselves as an elect kingdom of priests unto the Lord. We now have the right to enter the holiest of all. As such, Christian conduct should reflect that reality.
  • Just as Israel was a sanctified (holy) nation in the act of circumcision, Christians are likewise set apart for service to Christ by the Holy Spirit and baptism. The Church is a "nation" in the sense that Christians are bound together for the purpose of holiness even though spread among the various earthly nations.
  • Christians are also a peculiar people. We are a private treasured possession belonging to God purchased by the blood of Jesus for the purpose of declaring to the world excellencies of His gospel.
  • Christians should show forth, therefore, God’s praises as a people called out of darkness into the light and who are now the people of God.

All of those things are true about the Christian, but there is nothing in those truths that warrant declaring the Church as God's “true Israel,” or "chosen people," which replaces biblical Israel. Peter goes on to admonish believers as to their conduct and what their behavior should be like in light of the above truths.

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And do you accuse me of being anti-Semitic, Cobalt? There's a laugh. Anyone who has ever read my posts knows I support Israel for being the most righteous nation in the Middle East. I don't support Israel based on the chosen people doctrine; we (Believers) are the chosen people and the royal priesthood (Peter).

For the record, Cobalt did not call you anti-Semitic. He said, and rightly so, that Preterism, partical preterism, Amillennialism (and I will also include Covenant Theology) were all rooted in anti-Semitism. That does not mean that every one who holds those views are necessarily anti-Semtic, but they all have one glaring thing in common. They all hinge on removing Israel/the Jewish people as the chosen people of God.

Peter did not mean to be understood that God had somehow transferred the status of "chosen people." To the Church. Christians mistakenly think that "Chosen People" means "favorite people." They misunderstand it to be some kind of exalted position or rank. That is a misunderstanding of what chosen means. It refers to be chosen in the same way your boss chooses you to complete a task.

Israel/the Jewish people were chosen by God to fulfill a task that they have not completed yet and won't complete until the millennial reign of Christ upon the throne of David begins.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

This passage from 1 Peter is often cited by replacement theologians to prove that the Church is the new Israel of God because of the use of such terms as “chosen generation,” “royal priesthood,” “people of God,” etc., which were originally used to refer to Israel. My response to this assertion is three-fold.

First of all, simply using Israelite imagery is not sufficient grounds for claiming that a nonIsraelite entity is in fact, Israelite. It is not uncommon for the Bible in both old and New Testaments to use Israel imagery when speaking about nonIsraelites but yet they remain distinct from Israel. Dr. Mark Vlach correctly observes:

Yes, language used of Israel in the Old Testament is used of believing Gentiles in the New Testament. But similarity with Israel does not mean identification with Israel. There are occasions in Scripture when “Israel” imagery is applied to non-Israelites without these non-Israelites becoming Israel. Isa 19:24–25, for instance, predicts that Egypt would someday be called “my people.” Yet, the context makes clear that Egypt is distinct from Israel since Egypt is mentioned alongside “Israel my inheritance.” So, even in the Old Testament it was predicted that non-Israelites would someday carry some of the titles of Israel without becoming identified as Israel.

In Romans 9: 24-26, Paul by the Holy Spirit sees the purpose of God in the calling of the Gentiles and he bases this off of Hosea 2:23, which reads:

And I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'" (Hosea 2:23)

In both the Old and New Testaments we find nonIsraelites referred to as "God's people" yet mentioned in distinction from Israel. What we do NOT find ANYWHERE in Scripture is any reference or even an implication that there is a "spiritual Israel.” What we do not find are any references to Gentiles being identified with Israel. What we do not find in 1 Peter is any remark that makes reference to a "new Israel" or "spiritual Israel" that displaces biblical Israel. Nowhere in the New Testament are believers identified as "Israel" spiritually or otherwise. They are a part of Israel, the Kingdom of God, but they do not displace, replace, supplant, supercede (whichever term fits), national/biblical Israel.

Peter is drawing from OT Israelite imagery to demonstrate how believers were to conduct themselves among the pagans. The OT priesthood and other aspects of the Israelite nation are used as object lessons as points of reference and a broader, more spiritual application is made to believers. Just as Israel was sanctified from the nations to be a holy nation and royal priesthood unto God, those concepts are reiterated in a more broad application with respect to Christian conduct.

  • Christians should see themselves as an elect kingdom of priests unto the Lord. We now have the right to enter the holiest of all. As such, Christian conduct should reflect that reality.
  • Just as Israel was a sanctified (holy) nation in the act of circumcision, Christians are likewise set apart for service to Christ by the Holy Spirit and baptism. The Church is a "nation" in the sense that Christians are bound together for the purpose of holiness even though spread among the various earthly nations.
  • Christians are also a peculiar people. We are a private treasured possession belonging to God purchased by the blood of Jesus for the purpose of declaring to the world excellencies of His gospel.
  • Christians should show forth, therefore, God’s praises as a people called out of darkness into the light and who are now the people of God.

All of those things are true about the Christian, but there is nothing in those truths that warrant declaring the Church as God's “true Israel,” or "chosen people," which replaces biblical Israel. Peter goes on to admonish believers as to their conduct and what their behavior should be like in light of the above truths.

How you can think that a teaching that doesn't exalt natural Israel to chosen people status is anti Jewish (not anti-Semitic, Arabs are Semites too, and right now, a lot of Christians have a dim view of a lot of them) is beyond me. If I believe in a teaching that (according to you) has roots in anti-Jewish belief, then there is the undertone that I too must be anti-Jewish for believing it.

The facts are still the facts. I don't believe the popular doctrine, so I have to be the bad guy. There are a lot of people who have begun to question dispensationalism in general and pre-trib rapturism in particular. I guess they're bad guys too. Well that's OK. It's not going to change what I believe in the matter.

Incidentally, just how IS Israel going to fulfill 'a task that they have not completed yet and won't complete until the millennial reign of Christ upon the throne of David begins.' The Church has been bringing people to the One True God (the JEWISH God) through the Jewish Messiah for 2000+ years. Israel has been denying Him and claiming Jesus is NOT Messiah for the same amount of time. Sorry, I used to be a pre-millennialist, but theologically and Biblically, it doesn't make sense. I left it for what DOES.

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