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  • Posts

    • The Sequential Structure of Revelation
      As I posted in another thread there is a chronological aspect to Rev but it's not a strict chronology in the form of chapter and verse. The chapter and verse format was added to organize the texts when there were scores of scholars working to translate. Do you imagine that Jesus said, "John, write down everything I say. Chapter 1, Verse 1; This is a Revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave to him that he might show his servants what must soon take place.  Verse 2..." and so on? I agree with you in the idea of a 'past' present' and 'future' chronology to Rev. In fact it's this idea that forms the basis of much of my exegesis. I say 'my exegesis' but that's not really the case. It's not a matter of my exegesis, it's listening to what the Lord says in His word and humbling myself to believe Him over myself. Tough duty, but one can overcome themselves with diligence and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I want to address the logical fallacy in this part of the intro to this thread:  We actually do not have to ask ourselves any question about the status of the church. As believers we are fully aware of the dispostion of the church at the end of the age: all believers are gathered to Christ to be with Him forever. This is a consistent theme throughout the NT. But I know what you mean by the above statement: The church is not mentioned after Ch 3 so therefore the church is in heaven. This is where the logical fallacy appears.  You are saying that because the church is mentioned 12 times in Ch 1-3 of Rev, and is not mentioned by name in the ensuing chapters that the church has been transported somewhere(you don't say where but I assume you believe the churches have been taken to the throne of God, or something similar).  What we have then in simple form is this: A then B, therefore C or as an example; A) The Church is present. B) The Church is not present. C) The Church is in heaven. The above could be true but it's not true just because A and B exist and without evidence must equal C. There is no statement in the relevant scriptures, namely Rev 1-4, that even implies that the churches went anywhere. That the churches would be in heaven at this point is a false assumption, there is no evidence this is a fact or even implied. Further, there is no biblical statement that the churches have moved even an inch from their current locations, much less appearing in heaven. With as much veracity I could say: A) The Church is present. B) The Church is not present. C) The Church is destroyed. It was swallowed by the ground. It was inundated by a tidal wave. Or potato. Or 46.  All the above conclusions make equal sense with the conclusion of Pre-Trib that;  C) The Church is in heaven. With no hard biblical statements, or even biblical implications, that the church has been transported to heaven at the end of Ch 3, we can only know for certain that the location of the churches has not changed. I have always found this belief system to be interesting in that a certain set of facts are ignored when people cite the chronological nature of Rev to be inviolate. Again it's logical fallacy to assume that just because a set of events has particular characteristics that all similar events or the relationship to those events must also have those characteristics. Witness: Rev 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev 11 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev16 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. All three of the above events are the same. The 6th seal and the seventh trumpet and vial are described in nearly identical fashion. So while the seals trumpets and vials are chronological in and of themselves, these three groups of symbolic events run in a successive/concurrent manner. I don't think it matters too much in the grand scheme but it's fascinating that God set it up this way. Obviously the vials of the wrath of God can only occur after the gathering of the church at the sixth seal. But the seventh trumpet is the sixth seal(the above scriptures prove this) so the trumpets have been sounding along with the opening of the seals. Then the vials are poured out in rapid succession and the seventh of each converge as proven by the similar descriptions of the thundering, lightnings, earthquake and hail. Thanks for reading!
    • Is it just me...
      he looks as if he is about to cry ...cant have that here we are only half way through building the ark and we already have more than enough rain thank you !!!   Nooby if you come visit me in Wales I promise not to deliberately knock you off your perch 
      Absolutely true. And the same can be said for the Bible, which is one of the reasons why we have so many versions of it: no one perfect copy remains from ancient times. Nevertheless, the teachings of the Book of Enoch are well-attested to both by early Jewish and early Church sources, including Peter and Jude, and more anciently, Moses. I wish you would examine your own soul about your seeming bias against Jewish and Hebraic sources. This bias is too reminiscent of the Roman Church and Empire for comfort. Beginning soon after 313 A.D., both of those institutions, in fornicative concert, began to aggressively subvert the Jews and their teachings. For example, Constantine made Sunday a state holiday, and the Church followed suit not long after at the Council of Laodicea, "Outlawing the keeping of the Jewish sabbath (Saturday) [for members of the Church]. (canon 29)... The 59th canon forbade the readings in church of uncanonical books." Pope Gregory the Great later forbade Christians to even eat with Jews. This whole foundation of Church-derived anti-Semitism has been a black stain on the history of the Church, whose original roots were Jewish/Hebraic: something that needs to be acknowledged and appreciated, not suppressed and vilified. I pray for you that these last two attitudes not be found in your heart.
      "If we choose God then how does being called by God work? " "Many  are called,  few are chosen. " The few give up their lives completely willingly and JOYOUSLY .  The many don't.
      ~ God Says For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Whosoever Will I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17 ~ And All Dinosaurs Who Used To Hand Labor Over Inked Engineering Drawings
      Know All Caps Are A-OK And Most All Young Whippersnappers
      Know No Caps Are a-ok Yet Some Remain Offended??? Love, Your Brother Joe
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