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Did Lucifer fall before, or after, the creation of man?

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#1
Lesta

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Hi, I've been away for a while so I thought I'd drop in and say hi.

I was thinking this over in my head and having a conversation with some people I know and I seemed to be getting some mixed answers.

I figured, "Hey, the people on Worthy are very nice and quite informed, perhaps I'll ask them! :)

So, I guess my question is:

Did Lucifer fall before or after the creation of man? I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,
and others have told me that it happened before that and he had already fallen from grace when that happened.

So, can anyone clear this up for me please?

Thank you.

#2
Blien

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Its my personal opinion that it was definitely before. Why? Because, God created Eden before Man and Woman. Therefore, it just doesn't make sense for why Satan would be evil after the man and woman were created. Also, the scripture in Ezekiel says, that he committed some kind of violence.. I don't see that in the account of Genesis..

Though I do see good arrangements for why it might have occurred after. I personally believe it was before.




Ezekiel 28:12-19

12 “.....You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God.

Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone—
red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone,
blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper,
blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—
all beautifully crafted for you
and set in the finest gold.
They were given to you
on the day you were created.
14 I ordained and anointed you
as the mighty angelic guardian.
You had access to the holy mountain of God
and walked among the stones of fire.

15 “You were blameless in all you did
from the day you were created
until the day evil was found in you.

16 Your rich commerce led you to violence,
and you sinned.

So I banished you in disgrace
from the mountain of God.
I expelled you, O mighty guardian,
from your place among the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was filled with pride
because of all your beauty.
Your wisdom was corrupted
by your love of splendor.
So I threw you to the ground
and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries
with your many sins and your dishonest trade.
So I brought fire out from within you,
and it consumed you.
I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All who knew you are appalled at your fate.
You have come to a terrible end,
and you will exist no more.”


Jude 1:6
6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.



Isaiah 14:12-17
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
and be like the Most High.’
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
‘Can this be the one who shook the earth
and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world’s greatest cities
and had no mercy on his prisoners?’

#3
enoob57

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Hi, I've been away for a while so I thought I'd drop in and say hi.

I was thinking this over in my head and having a conversation with some people I know and I seemed to be getting some mixed answers.

I figured, "Hey, the people on Worthy are very nice and quite informed, perhaps I'll ask them! :)

So, I guess my question is:

Did Lucifer fall before or after the creation of man? I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,
and others have told me that it happened before that and he had already fallen from grace when that happened.

So, can anyone clear this up for me please?

Thank you.


The fallen angels (v. 4). We wish we knew more about the creation of the angels and the fall of Lucifer and his host, but most of these details are shrouded in mystery. Many Bible students believe that Isa 14:12-15 describes the fan of Lucifer, the highest of the angels. Some students feel that Ezek 28:11-19 also deals with the same topic. It would appear that Lucifer was God's deputy, in charge of the angelic hosts, but that his pride made him grasp after the very throne of God. (John Milton imaginatively portrayed this in the famous poem, Paradise Lost.) Rev 12:4 suggests that perhaps one third of the angels fell with Lucifer, who became Satan, the adversary of God.

Where are these fallen angels now? We know that Satan is free and at work in the world (1 Peter 5:8), and that he has an army of demonic powers assisting him (Eph 6:10-12), who are probably some of the fallen angels. But Peter said that some of the angels were confined to
Tartarus
("hell"), which is a Greek word for the underworld. Tartarus may be a special section of hell where these angels are chained in pits of darkness, awaiting the final judgment. It is not necessary to debate the hidden mysteries of this verse in order to get the main message: God judges rebellion and will not spare those who reject His win. If God judged the angels, who in many respects are higher than men, then certainly He will judge rebellious men.
(from The Bible Exposition Commentary. Copyright © 1989 by Chariot Victor Publishing, and imprint of Cook Communication Ministries. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

Our Father has given us enough to learn and understand so obedience may occur unto His Glory here and now! So where little is spoken of in His Word little time should be given to the muse of the mystery! Love Steven

#4
Guest_TheChief_*

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Just an opinion...

The creation of man was first recorded in Genesis 1:27, with clarifying information given in Genesis 2:7. At the end of Chapter 1, verse 31 relates that "...God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." If Satan had sinned prior to the creation of man, then His creation would have been flawed at that time, and I do not see how God could address his creation as "very good."

#5
Blien

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Just an opinion...

The creation of man was first recorded in Genesis 1:27, with clarifying information given in Genesis 2:7. At the end of Chapter 1, verse 31 relates that "...God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." If Satan had sinned prior to the creation of man, then His creation would have been flawed at that time, and I do not see how God could address his creation as "very good."



Good points! You've shifted my opinion over!

#6
nebula

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But there was one element of creation of which the Lord did not say it was good - the air. Satan is called "the Prince of the Power of the Air.."

:)

#7
nebula

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I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,

FYI - this statement does not make sense.

First of all, the Bible never said it was an apple - that's an urban myth sort of thing. It was the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

At any rate, Satan's tempting of Eve had to have been after his fall, for why would he be tempting Eve away from the Lord is he hadn't already fallen?

#8
Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

It appears to be the fact that the Angelic host were created sometime prior to the earths creation;

Job 38:3
Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and you answer me.

Job 38:4
¶ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.

Job 38:5
Who has determined the measures thereof, if you know? or who has stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6
On what are its foundations fastened? or who laid its cornerstone;

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

They were present when God created the earth. :emot-highfive:

This does not give us a timeline for Lucifers fall though.

Peace,
Dave

#9
Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

This leaves us here;

Ge 3:1
¶ Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Here he is after the creation of man tempting mankind to sin against God.

Peace,
Dave

#10
EricH

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Scripture does not say

#11
Fez

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Grace to you,

This leaves us here;

Ge 3:1
¶ Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Here he is after the creation of man tempting mankind to sin against God.

Peace,
Dave

I am with Dave on this one. The creation account is about the creation of the earth as we know it, not of the cosmos? It can be argued that heaven alludes to our sky and not the universe? (but I am willing to listen to reasoned debate over this opinion of mine)

H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

Which brings me to another question. Does satan have influence over just our world then, and not the universe? I am not sure....

#12
Lesta

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Thank you for all the good answers I'm getting.

:wub:

#13
HitmanR2

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In my uneducated opinion it was before.

Luke chapter 10, and Revelation chapter 12 both tell of his fall, just not when.


.

#14
shiloh357

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The Bible is silent on that issue. We should be silent where the Bible is silent.

#15
exrockstar

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Hi, I've been away for a while so I thought I'd drop in and say hi.

I was thinking this over in my head and having a conversation with some people I know and I seemed to be getting some mixed answers.

I figured, "Hey, the people on Worthy are very nice and quite informed, perhaps I'll ask them! :whistling:

So, I guess my question is:

Did Lucifer fall before or after the creation of man? I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,
and others have told me that it happened before that and he had already fallen from grace when that happened.

So, can anyone clear this up for me please?

Thank you.


easy...it was before

#16
Matthitjah

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Hi, I've been away for a while so I thought I'd drop in and say hi.

I was thinking this over in my head and having a conversation with some people I know and I seemed to be getting some mixed answers.

I figured, "Hey, the people on Worthy are very nice and quite informed, perhaps I'll ask them! :emot-questioned:

So, I guess my question is:

Did Lucifer fall before or after the creation of man? I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,
and others have told me that it happened before that and he had already fallen from grace when that happened.

So, can anyone clear this up for me please?

Thank you.


easy...it was before



Please back that statement with scriptural reference. :emot-questioned:

#17
Lesta

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I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,

FYI - this statement does not make sense.

First of all, the Bible never said it was an apple - that's an urban myth sort of thing. It was the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

At any rate, Satan's tempting of Eve had to have been after his fall, for why would he be tempting Eve away from the Lord is he hadn't already fallen?



I'm aware it said 'fruit' and not apple. However in my minds eye that's how I see it, so that's what I wrote (wrong or not, it could have been an apple. Apples are fruit. :taped: ).

I agree with you, however. I think it was before also, but I had no real referance to back it up and since I've been getting mixed messages from other people.

You say ' Why would he be tempting Eve away from the lord if he hadn't already fallen?', I don't know either, except some of the people I've talked to said that they believe that very act was what caused his fall.

Which is why I posed this question.

#18
Lesta

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Its my personal opinion that it was definitely before. Why? Because, God created Eden before Man and Woman. Therefore, it just doesn't make sense for why Satan would be evil after the man and woman were created. Also, the scripture in Ezekiel says, that he committed some kind of violence.. I don't see that in the account of Genesis..

Though I do see good arrangements for why it might have occurred after. I personally believe it was before.




Ezekiel 28:12-19

12 “.....You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God.

Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone—
red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone,
blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper,
blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—
all beautifully crafted for you
and set in the finest gold.
They were given to you
on the day you were created.
14 I ordained and anointed you
as the mighty angelic guardian.
You had access to the holy mountain of God
and walked among the stones of fire.

15 “You were blameless in all you did
from the day you were created
until the day evil was found in you.

16 Your rich commerce led you to violence,
and you sinned.

So I banished you in disgrace
from the mountain of God.
I expelled you, O mighty guardian,
from your place among the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was filled with pride
because of all your beauty.
Your wisdom was corrupted
by your love of splendor.
So I threw you to the ground
and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries
with your many sins and your dishonest trade.
So I brought fire out from within you,
and it consumed you.
I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All who knew you are appalled at your fate.
You have come to a terrible end,
and you will exist no more.”


Jude 1:6
6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.



Isaiah 14:12-17
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
and be like the Most High.’
15 Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead,
down to its lowest depths.
16 Everyone there will stare at you and ask,
‘Can this be the one who shook the earth
and made the kingdoms of the world tremble?
17 Is this the one who destroyed the world
and made it into a wasteland?
Is this the king who demolished the world’s greatest cities
and had no mercy on his prisoners?’


That makes a lot of sense, actually. Thank you very much for mentioning the part about violence. Coercing Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge was definately decietful, but not violent.

This is a very good response to my question. I appriciate it. :taped:

#19
Lesta

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The Bible is silent on that issue. We should be silent where the Bible is silent.



I don't see what's wrong with speculation, especially since Blien gave me a very good answer.
I understand that the Bible is a bit vague on the subject, but I was hoping for some insight, that
perhaps I had missed something.

If everyone was silent on issues just because there seems to be no good, or solid answer, how would I learn anything?
I just learned that it is kind of a mystery, but there seems to be a decent amount of evidence to support that it happened before. And I apprecate all the feedback I've gotten.

#20
exrockstar

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That makes a lot of sense, actually. Thank you very much for mentioning the part about violence. Coercing Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge was definately decietful, but not violent.

This is a very good response to my question. I appriciate it. :taped:

agreed




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