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Did Lucifer fall before, or after, the creation of man?

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#1
Micheal Westin

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I think I hit multiquote button by mistake 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Micheal Westin, 23 August 2013 - 08:33 AM.

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#2
Micheal Westin

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There are some things that are going to keep us guessing until we get to Heaven and then we will know the answers.

When did Satan fall? My guess will be Satan fell before creation. Now think about it, in the Garden Of Eden there is this tree of knowledge/ good and evil. Satan couldn't of possibly fallen as a result of man's falling, because there was already a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan is evil, so evil was already here before man's fall, or there wouldn't be a tree of knowledge because there wouldn't of been evil.

Now we all know there is many versions of the Holy Bible and some of the verses are worded differently. Most of these verses, even though worded differently, mean the same thing. However there is one verse that has me puzzled, that verse is Genesis 1:28.

I have four Bibles laying beside me, one newer version of KJ, two older versions of KJ and the NIV.

In the NIV, Gen. 1:28 states-
God blessed them (Adam and Eve) and said to them, "be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

In the newer KJV, Gen. 1:28 states-
And God blessed them, and God said to them, �Be fruitful and multiply and Fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

Both of my older KJV's Gen 1:28 states-
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the Earth and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the Earth.


Now you may ask, what does this verse have to do with the topic? There is one key word in the old KJV and that word is "replenish".

In my study Bible it reads this about Gen. 1:28
The word "replenish" carries the idea of a former creation on the Earth before Adam and Eve; according to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, Lucifer ruled this world for an undetermined amount of time, and did so in Righteousness and Holiness as a beautiful Angel created by God; if, in fact, he did rule the world at that time, it would stand to reason that there had to be some type of creation on the Earth for him to rule; the word "replenish" refers to that creation.

There is so much we don't know, but Gen. 1:28 is something to think about.

I agree with your assumption, replenish would only be used to denote it had once been populated, I find it strange for any human to imagine God did nothing before He created the heavens and the earth and our short history began, I think since God has no beginning or end, and is outside of time, He could well be creating earths and planets and universes, not only even now, but even before our earth history, and after.......Its hard to grasp a concept of a being that is not held by time or our laws of science

 

 

but clearly the words of Jesus Himself being an eye witness to satans fall in the context of "past" "I saw satan fall like lightning" the event has already occurred, saying it hasn't is basically calling Jesus a liar


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#3
Bro. Courage

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Well in mine opinion also, i think He fell before creation of man. The Bible confirms he fell as a result of pride, wanting to MAKE HIMSELF LIKE GOD; This caused him to lose his position in heaven and then in war, he was thrown down.

 

Now study carefully Satan's statement in Gen. 3:5- "For GOD doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, AND YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.

 

From the above statements in opinion, i realized that Satan; as he was called the accuser of the brethren in Rev.12, caused man to commit the same sin (Pride) of which he was accused of just to prove to GOD that man whom He created was of no difference than Him.

 

So if that be the case, then i believe He fell before creation.


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#4
Diatheosis

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God has all the knowledge of all things that are to be. We cannot comprehend His sense of eternity as He is above space and time. But He is the Creator and He creates. Just like Jesus knew what Judas was about to do, he was still given that position. We must also consider this from the point of view of him, just as Lucifer. God granted them their being, yet He did not make them to sin. They chose to commit what they did. God knew it would happen, but it was allowed anyway, otherwise they would not have the chance to choose. This for me is very important. God knows what is to come, but that does not take away our role as decision makers. 

 

Lucifer was blinded by his own glory. It may be difficult to imagine that situation in that context, but from everyday life we could easily tell how a kind of knowing we have succeeded in something, or in some way  on some occasion have done God's Will may breed in us similar kind of pride. It begins by just a small sense of it with no conscious awareness we are going the wrong way. But in a being like Lucifer was, the consequences might be much more severe and indeed drive him insane. That's one sad story, really.

 

When did it happen? I also tend to reason God's days in creating are not necessarily earth days, as the scriptures say (creating the Sun on the third day, as well as actually saying Lord's day can be relatively long time period from our perspective.

 

And more than that, if the fall indeed happened in the heavenly realm, to what extent can we relate it to time in the first place?

 

Any ideas as for that?


Edited by Diatheosis, 22 August 2013 - 12:54 PM.

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#5
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Who exactly was the serpent in Genesis 3 if the fall didn't begin until the apple was bitten.


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#6

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Who exactly was the serpent in Genesis 3 if the fall didn't begin until the apple was bitten.

 

~

 

Who

 

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

 

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:14-19

 

Indeed

 

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15

 

Who

 

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Romans 16:20

 

Amen~!


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#7
RobbyPants

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Did Lucifer fall before or after the creation of man? I was told by some people that he fell due to the whole apple fiasco in Genesis,
and others have told me that it happened before that and he had already fallen from grace when that happened.

 

Actually, another reason to believe that original sin didn't have to do with Satan's fall is that the Bible doesn't say Satan played any role. Just as people tend to picture the (unnamed) fruit as an apple, they tend to picture the talking serpent as Satan; the Bible never explicitly says either of these things.

 

What Satan is changes a bit throughout the Bible, chronologically:

  • A talking snake trying to get people to sin... maybe. That's an assumption people make, but isn't explicitly backed.
  • An adversary (or accuser). This was his role in Job, and how he is thought of in the Hebrew sense.
  • The deceiver (or other opposite of God). This version doesn't get mentioned until the New Testament. The Old Testament largely lacks the whole struggle between Good and Evil, in that sense.

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#8
Diatheosis

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I've met the guy in question a couple times and he fits all of the above fields ;) but what's really interesting is to hear some testimonies of ex-satanists who were practicing on high level and then got saved. There you get some food for thought about the fallen one.


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#9
Micheal Westin

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Well in mine opinion also, i think He fell before creation of man. The Bible confirms he fell as a result of pride, wanting to MAKE HIMSELF LIKE GOD; This caused him to lose his position in heaven and then in war, he was thrown down.

 

Now study carefully Satan's statement in Gen. 3:5- "For GOD doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, AND YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.

 

From the above statements in opinion, i realized that Satan; as he was called the accuser of the brethren in Rev.12, caused man to commit the same sin (Pride) of which he was accused of just to prove to GOD that man whom He created was of no difference than Him.

 

So if that be the case, then i believe He fell before creation.

you make a good point either way one can clearly see evil had entered his heart as early as the garden story as he blatantly was tempting them to sin


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#10
Edwin

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Lesta.

You ask,

"Did Lucifer fall before, or after, the creation of man?"

Before of course, otherwise why would he tempt Eve?

Bless you.

Edwin.
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