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Was AD 70 the Parousia?

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#341
shiloh357

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I wonder how many full perterests take communion. For if they do they take it for the wrong reason.

1 Cor 11:23-26 - For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you; The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you, do this in remembrance of me. In the same way after supper, he took the cup saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it in rememberance of me. For when ever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.

We as believers in Christ continue to do what has been passed down to us for generations; Proclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ until he returns.

In Christ
Montana Marv


That is a good point, Marv.

#342
PGA

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I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant.

That may be what YOU see, but that is not what the Bible says. You are trying to impose YOUR views on to Scripture. The Bible never relates heaven and earth to Old Covenant Israel. And the Bible never refers to Israel in that terminology either. You appear to be making up theological terms as you go.

I see an end to death and sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and a heavenly kingdom that Christians on earth partake in.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. Sin and death have not yet come to an end. Yes those in heaven now are free from sin but that is not fulfillment of the prophecy. The end of sin and death is not simply dying and going to heaven, at least on in Scripture.

I see those who are with the Lord in heaven as receiving all the blessings of Christ and those promises for all who believe when we die physically. Spiritually I believe we are already united with Christ in the new birth, thus are members of His kingdom already, for He is Lord and King!


The problem here is that the Kingdom of God has both heavenly and earthlly referents. The Kingdom of God is spiritual, but is also going to exist in physical form on earth according to Scripture. That is where Preterism fails. The Bible doesn't relate the Kingdom to the spiritual realm alone, but also to the natural realm which God will one day renovate when Heaven and Earth will dwell together forever in the New Heavens and New Earth.

The problem in your theology is that while it is very "preterist," It is not biblical. If this is the full and final esablishment of the Kingdom of God, if this is the "new heavens and new earth," It is the biggest failure in human history.

As for Acts 1:9-11, please see the parts I highlighted in your post above. I don't see this as the same coming as in Revelation1:7 for instance. This coming in Acts 1 is to a small, select group. In Revelation1:7 I believe it is to the whole nation of Israel.


That is some fancy theologial gymnaistics you are going with. The problem is that there is no point in history where Jesus came back to the disciples in bodily form. You are trying to make up something that never happened.

One of the big problems I see with Preterism is with the incessent need to revise history and change the core meanings of texts so that they can pencil their theological views into the Bible. Acts 1:19-11 is fulfilled in Rev. 19 when Jesus returns in bodky form and the whole world sees Him. From there, He will establish His 1,000 year earthly Kingdom.


Hi Shiloh,

Thanks for your return post. You have given me lots to reply to but I'm working this weekend so it will probably be after Christmas that I send a reply. I would like to respond to each section of your post so I may do that in individual posts. That way it will be more manageable, although this is probably going to create lots of other tangents. (^8

Peter

#343
PGA

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I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant. -Me



That may be what YOU see, but that is not what the Bible says. You are trying to impose YOUR views on to Scripture. The Bible never relates heaven and earth to Old Covenant Israel. And the Bible never refers to Israel in that terminology either. You appear to be making up theological terms as you go. -Shiloh


More on this statement of yours later but for now just a few quick comments.

Actually I think that futurists tend to read more into God's word than it actually says. For instance, over and over again Jesus says 'this generation' in which He came to in the 1st century and many read into this another generation 20 plus centuries removed. The same can be said for terms like 'the last day', 'last hour', 'end of the age', and so on. When I bring up points, such as Matthew 10 in relation to Matthew 24, the post and context is totally ignored and removed from 1st century relevance by ignoring my points. I spend hours gladly explaining some of the significance of Hebrews and the differences between the two covenants, the spiritual and physical differences, the heavenly and the earthly and all I get is silence. I do the same with many other passages of Scripture, like Daniel 9:24-27 in which the 70 weeks are decreed for Daniel's people to put an end of sin and bring in an everlasting righteousness, and then Revelation 18 which concerns itself with Babylon the Great City - Jerusalem. Again silence - virtually no comments on any of these, just accusations.

If you read the context of Acts 1:9-11 and Revelation 1:7 do you not see any distinctions between the two texts. They both speak of Jesus' coming and yet one is concerned with Jesus addressing those who are there watching Him go into the clouds, whereas the other is addressing a much larger group of people. Sure, it could be the same event, but regardless, futurists try to make this into a global phenom. The quote from Revelation 1:7 is taken from Zechariah 12:10 and its context addresses Israel, not the whole world. The Roman army was made up of people from all over the known world of their day and it came against Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature in which there are many symbols and types. You just can't interpret everything literally. God's word interprets itself and over and over in the NT we see the type explained, such as in Galatians 4 - the two covenants, two Jerusalem's, two peoples, two women, two seeds of people - slave and free.

'This generation' is not 'that generation'. IMO, futurists are trying to fit their theology into the 21st century and ignoring what the Author is actually saying, or who the primary audience of His address is. There are just too many glaring examples of this.

P.S. Shiloh, my next post in answer to your last post may be after Christmas, depending on time.

Best wishes to you and your family, that it may be filled with the Saviors love!

Peter

#344
gdemoss

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Peter, your absolutely correct about what I did when I used the example given in Timothy for what you are mistakenly doing here. Foreshadowing did not end in the OT. This that was done by these two has been repeated as a tactic by Satan for nearly 2000 years. Many have fallen away due to such teachings. Christ is coming and it won't be long now.

#345
PGA

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If you read the context of Acts 1:9-11 and Revelation 1:7 do you not see any distinctions between the two texts. They both speak of Jesus' coming and yet one is concerned with Jesus addressing those who are there watching Him go into the clouds, whereas the other is addressing a much larger group of people. Sure, it could be the same event, but regardless, futurists try to make this into a global phenom. The quote from Revelation 1:7 is taken from Zechariah 12:10 and its context addresses Israel, not the whole world.


Hi Peter,

Acts 1:9-11
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mattew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Yes they are the same event ,

If you take into account of how far technology has advanced just as prophets had foretold it easy to understand ...
Have you ever watched live news events or live sporting events that are physically happening in another country or another part of earth? Happens all the time , routine everyday for TV broadcasters transmitting live from all over the world.

The events happening in Israel , the wars and destruction going on at that time will be center stage of attention with live news coverage with dozens of news stations from all over the world be airing this climatic event .
Nearly everyone on earth knows about how Israel is being constantly attacked , When the worst of the war is at climatic point it will be on every TV broadcasting network , we now have Satellite TV , Internet News cell phones with unlimited internet data streams , cable TV....While the climatic time of war is taking place is exactly when Jesus returns coming on the clouds to save Israel , ALL the news networks that are broadcasting live news from Israel they will see Jesus coming on the clouds coming down from heaven. Do you really think that the seeing Jesus coming down from heaven is not more newsworthy than war and people dying?
Every news camera will likely be focused on Jesus coming and broadcasting this SPECTACULAR news event all over the planet globally and thus everyone on earth will be able to see Jesus coming to earth

For this to be global is just another day in the world of TV Journalism and Live Broadcasting

Zechariah 14
11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

If all this took place in 70AD ,,is Jerusalem will be secure now?
no it is not
When did you say that the plague that Zech 14 :12 happened ?

Can you not see this dispels the myth of preterist view...when you pick and choose scriptures and avoid the rest of scripture it becomes fallacy that does not match all of the Word of God

Zechariah 14

12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.
14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing.
15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.


Hi Danielzk,


My questions are falling on deaf ears. Who were the they of Acts 1:9? How big a group were they? Whose sight was He hidden from? Who was He speaking to? Do you see what you are guilty of doing? You are lifting an interpretation out of the text that it does not imply. You take the Author's words and you remove them from context and project them into the 21st century.

These people, in Acts 1, these apostles, were looking for Jesus to restore the kingdom to Israel and in Acts 2, on the day of Pentecost we see Jesus already sitting on David's throne (meaning He has received the kingdom spoken of in Isaiah 9:6), we also see godly Jews (possibly from every tribe under heaven) gathered in Jerusalem and Peter explaining to them that the prophecy of Joel that was forecast to happen in the last days was taking place before their eyes.

Here is Acts 1 in context:


Acts 1:1-12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk[b] from the city.
Footnotes:A few things for you to notice here:
1) The men were apostles,
2) He showed Himself to these men, not to all the tribes of the land or the whole of Israel (or do you translate the passage in Revelation 1 as all the people of the earth, which can remove it nicely from addressing the Jews/Israel alone to addressing everyone?)
3) He spoke to them concerning the kingdom,
4) He tells them that when they receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them and they will be witnesses of Him to the ends of the earth (i.e., in other words, they are going to proclaim the Gospel all over the earth, and this is in fact confirmed in various passages of Scripture),
5) Jesus is taken up before their very eyes,
6) Two angels address them as 'Men of Galilee', and tells them that Jesus will again appear in the same way they have seen Him go. That statement can be interpreted with various connotations. One way of interpreting this is that as He disappeared before the small band of believers He will again appear before them in like manner, as before a small band of believers. Revelation 1:7 is not before a small group of people but concerns the whole of Israel as seeing Him, those who pierced Him. The apostles, as believers, loved the Lord and were not the ones who arranged to have Him crucified. The text in Acts addresses these men as 'Men of Galilee', not every eye, although every eye could include them, but not as those who pierced Him.
7) The text speaks of them, this small group, as seeing Him come in the like manner to which they saw Him go. Right there alone, it seems to me that the text is exclusive not inclusive in that it addresses them alone, not the whole of Israel or the whole of the earth, whatever you take that phrase to mean.

My wife wants me to make supper so I'll address Revelation 1:7 later.

Peter

#346
gdemoss

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Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.

#347
PGA

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Hi Danielzk,

Concerning Zechariah 14, I believe I have answered your posts on this verse in a number of different posts, whether directly or indirectly, since your first mention of Zechariah 14 in Post # 242. I answered that I did not see Zechariah 14 as speaking of the Israel of today and a nuclear war because the Israel of old is not related to the Israel of today and they did not have nuclear weapons in those days; days in which horses and camels were the means of warfare and travel (Post 248).

You confuse the two Israels. In Post # 271 you said that Israel would be reborn on May 14, 1948. Where did Ezekiel or any prophet ever give the date of Israel's rebirth. Again you read into the Scriptures something that is not said. In Post # 284 you again asked for proof that events in Zechariah 14 had already happened. I answered in Post # 286 by stating that the end of the age can only refer to OT Israel's age because the age Jesus was in and talking about was the age of the OT. That age specifically related to the temple and the disciples. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross to atone for sin and bring in an everlasting righteousness, or put an end to wickedness by judgment and by the New Covenant in His blood. In turn, this end of the age all related to Daniel 9:24-27, which again it talking about OT Israel - Daniel's people. The Israel now in existence does not have a temple or priesthood or genealogies, therefore it is not OT Israel - Daniel's people. That people were scattered and absorbed into the nations in A.D. 70. Show me one person who can trace his bloodline to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel that is alive today? In OT times God brought judgment on His people when they forsook His covenant, just like He said He would. The greatest judgment God every brought on this people was in A.D. 70 when He ended the covenant He made with them. Again, if you do not think so then show me the temple, priesthood, sacrificial system that atoned for their sins? It does not exist. Matthew 5:17-18 has been fulfilled in which Jesus said He would fulfill/accomplish all righteousness before the slightest letter of the Law or Prophets was removed.

In Posts # 304, # 306, # 312 you brought up Zechariah 14 again. My most thorough response to date was Post # 365 in which I addressed it to Gary. In that response I explained the significance of the term 'on that day' as referring to Zechariah 12:10, which could only refer to OT Israel, since they pierced Him during the times of the Old Covenant age when He lived on this earth. The term 'on that day' is used various times in the Book of Zechariah and I would argue that they can only be referring to the same time period - that day, which refers to 1st century Israel.

Peter

#348
PGA

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Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.



Hi Gary,

It is baseless only if the pronouns and nouns do not refer to them because these people, these apostles, these men of Galilee were told that this same Jesus would come back in the same way that they had seen Him go. How did they see Him go? Verses 10-11 addresses these men. 'He was taken up before THEIR EYES'. 'Why do YOU stand here?' These men were looking for His return in the 1st century. Other Scripture demonstrates this.

I guess that you cannot take Scripture literally then because terms like 'apostles', 'these men', 'they', 'you' 'them', 'Men of Galilee' are just terms that Jesus and the author used to confuse us into thinking it was 1st century believers. When the two men/angels, dressed in white asked, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky' or 'this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way in which you have seen Him go into heaven' this can be taken as any people at any time in history and means nothing or anything you want it to mean - a true postmodern response!

The term you have seen Him go implies that they will see Him return. In this context we see two men/angels whereas in other passages of Scripture we notice that Jesus comes with a myriad of angels and He comes in power and great glory, not like this passage to my mind at least.

Revelation 1:7 is a direct quote from Zechariah 12:10 and it concerns OT Israel - the twelve tribes, 10 from the northern kingdom and two from the southern kingdom. It says in Zechariah 12:1 that 'This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel, the ones who pierced their Messiah and the ones who mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Matthew 24:30 also says that the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. This same verse can be translated as all the tribes of the land.

As for not being told 'when' this coming would happen, I believe they were told. John 14:25-26; 16:12-15. Over and over again we see these time statements indicating that His return is near. John says, 'this is the last hour.' (1 John 2:18) Peter says, 'who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that IS ready to be revealed in the last time. In this YOU greatly rejoice...' (1 Peter 1:5-6a) 'The end of all things is near.' (1 Peter 4:7) 'It IS TIME for judgment to begin with US...' (1 Peter 4:17) 'Be patient, then brothers, until the Lord's coming...because the Lord's coming is NEAR...' (James 5:7, 8) 'For in a very little while, "He who is coming will come and not delay."' (Hebrews 10:37)

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


1 Thessalonians 2:16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]
Footnotes:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Or them fully

1 Corinthians 10:11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Revelation 1:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The list is long.

Peter

#349
FresnoJoe

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6

#350
PGA

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Hi Danielzk,

I'll catch up with you later, except to say that I went back through the posts to where you first came aboard and I too noticed many questions that you left unanswered or you avoided directly answering because, IMO, for what it is worth, I don't think you have one.

Your own statement applies equally to you:

anything that refutes the (futurist) view as inaccurate and invalid you reject simply because it is not what you prefer...so many times your attempt to refute scripture it reveals you misunderstand the scripture -Danielzk


I believe, like you, that I reject on good Scriptural grounds.

I recognize that I do prefer the Preterist or partial-Preterist view because in it I see so many of the hurdles of the futurist view answered that go contrary to what Scripture says. In Luke 24:25-27 Jesus said to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus:


(NIV1984)
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ[a] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Footnotes:What I see you as doing is failing to recognize many of the types and shadows contained in the OT and explained in the new because of your literalism. Just like you I believe in taking Scripture plainly where it can be done so, but when it contradicts itself because of mangled hermeneutics it is time to reconsider what you believe. I have been where you are coming from.

Hebrews 8:5 says:

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.[a]
Footnotes:You fail to see the copy or shadow, the type shown in the OT and explained in the new too many times because you try to interpret everything literally.

The house or tabernacle that Jesus went to build was not a tabernacle or temple built by human hands. It was built by God and it is the heavenly Jerusalem where the names of those written in the Book of Life reside. Jesus said to His disciples He was going to prepare a place for them and if He went to prepare a place for them He would come back and take them to be where He was. He is at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. His kingdom is a Heaven Kingdom. His constant message was repent for the kingdom of heaven/God is near/at hand/within.

The futurist changes that to kingdom of earth/far/in the distant future.

Hebrews 12:18

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;...



Hebrews 12:22-28

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[a] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
Footnotes:


Danielzk, you keep looking for things that can be touched and seen, but the kingdom of heaven is with you. It is a heavenly kingdom, not of this world. You keep trying to put everything in literal physical terms. Is that what Scripture is teaching us? Over and over in Scripture we keep seeing the distinction between the earthly/physical/natural and the heavenly/unseen/spiritual. The Israel of the 1st century were looking for a Messiah who would bring in a physical kingdom and Jesus rejected that, just as they rejected Jesus when He offered to them the spiritual kingdom. They were ready to make Him king until this point.

Hebrews 12 is speaking to these Hebrew Christians primarily and directly, to us indirectly and secondary. It tells them, as it tells us, that the new Jerusalem is in heaven - the city of God. Hebrews 11 tells them and us that all these heroes of the faith were looking for a different country, a heavenly one, not an earthly city or land.


Hebrews 11:15-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

In Revelation we see this city, this heavenly Jerusalem coming down from heaven, so that the presence of God once again dwells with man. Jesus accomplished reconciliation for us, for the true Israel of God. When we get a picture of the saints in heaven, both OT and NT saints, they are not residing on the earth. In the OT we get many descriptions of this new heavens and new earth (e,g., Isaiah 65-66) - a picture of the New Covenant, the better promise. In the OT we see imagery of this new land, the Promised Land that Christ, the Second Moses, the Second Mediator, has taken believers to. Joshua lead the OT saints into their Promised Land and they took possession of all that God had given them. Jesus, the Second Joshua has taken His people of faith into a better land. They are new creations, born anew, born of the Spirit, born from the Seed living in a better heaven and better earth.


Galatians 4:23-31

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”[a]
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[b] 31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Footnotes:Here we as Christians are told that figuratively speaking there are two woman who represent two covenants, one a slave, the other free. One represents Mount Sinai and corresponds to the present (written to the church at Galatia) city of Jerusalem, in the Old Covenant, that had not yet been destroyed, and along with its destruction its covenant also, the other Mount Zion, the heavenly city that represents the New Covenant that is eternal. She is free. Jesus came to set His people free by this covenant. The one represents the letter of the law, the other the Spirit of grace and mercy. The one represents a covenant of works that cannot be met; the other a covenant of grace that has been met fully in the Lord Jesus Christ, the New Israel of God.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
Here we have the type and shadow as these old covenant people cross a physical sea out of bondage and captivity on the journey to the earthly Promised Land, that again is a copy of the reality that is found in Christ who brought us from a bondage we could not bear into freedom, fully paying our debt to those who remain in Him. God's word is food that gives life, the living Manna and water from heaven that brings us peace and hope and love.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

So many of the things you take as literal I believe to be wiser seen through spiritual eyes and so many of the things you see as future should be taken in the context of what they say, and whom they address, just like in this last verse in which it says to those people, 1st century OT Israel, that their forefathers walked through the cloud which was Christ and they served as an example for these people on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. Yet you keep trying to project the fulfillment into the distant future and to an earthly reality.


John 4:11-24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
17 “I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.
21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Again, Jesus tells them - OT Israel - that a time is coming, and has now come, when the true worshipers of God will worship Him in spirit and truth, not in a temple built by human hands on an earthly mountain in an earthly city. Over and over if you pay attention Jesus makes the distinction between earthly and heavenly things.

I asked a question a long time ago as to whether 'on that day' referred to in a number of places in Zechariah could be a reference to more than one day because it refers to an OT people living under the Old Covenant at a time when the Messiah was pierced for their transgressions and they would look on the One they had pierced.

I also asked another question concerning who the Great City was spoken of in Revelation 11:6 and 18, because it was guilty of killing (the blood of) the prophets and saints sent to it. I asked if it could be any city other than OT Jerusalem, yet in this very thread we have all kinds of speculation that goes against what Scripture teaches because of wooden literalism and a failure to let Scripture be its own council?

I asked the question concerning Matthew 5:17-18 and the passing of the Law. How could it pass until all was accomplished in it, every jot and title, yet how do these OT people provide what is require by their law, the one they agreed to before their God? The explanation I received ignored the fact that after A.D. 70 much of what was written in the Law could no longer be accomplished. That is significant because it reveals that Jesus accomplished what He came to earth from heaven to do.

Peter

#351
PGA

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Hi Danielzk,

.You STILL HAVE NOT dealt with Zech 14:12 the plagues , all you say is that you don't see it saying nuclear war , well it is certainly something that is clearly devastating to people and animals ,it is a real happening that has Never happened and will happen ,,it could be a biological weapon ,,but the point is that it has not happened yet , but LORD GOD says it will happen !
That refutes what you are teaching -Danielzk


The question is not so much what the plagues were but when they would take place - on that day, the Day of the Lord, the day of His judgment. Verse 12 speaks of judgment, of the curse of not living according to the covenant the OT people had agreed to.

Deuteronomy 28:15-20

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Curses for Disobedience

15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]
Footnotes:Deuteronomy 32:32-35

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)


32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom
and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison,
and their clusters with bitterness.
33 Their wine is the venom of serpents,
the deadly poison of cobras.


34 “Have I not kept this in reserve
and sealed it in my vaults?
35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay.
In due time their foot will slip;
their day of disaster is near
and their doom rushes upon them.



In God's promise of blessing for obedience and curses for disobedience He said upon the Old Covenant people that if they remained disobedient and unrepentant He would bring upon them all the plagues spoken of in Deut. 28-32.

You fail to recognize two Israels, the Israel of God, the true vine, the Lord Jesus Christ is being compared and contrasted throughout Scripture with the Israel of the flesh, the disobedient nation that never remained faithful to her covenant.

'On that day' is significant because it places that day in 1st century Israel, not 21st century Israel. If you grant that 'on that day' spoken of in Zechariah 14 is the same 'on that day' spoken of in Zechariah 12 it can be none other than 1st century Israel for a number of reasons, one being that its genealogy can be traced to the tribes of the land. The record of the genealogies was lost with the destruction of the city and temple in A.D. 70.

Zechariah 12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed


An Oracle
12 This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
6 On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Footnotes:It is clear that those who pierced Him are from the tribes of Israel, and Jerusalem does indeed mourn and weep at her destruction in A.D. 70. Judah and Jerusalem were besieged during the Roman occupation in A.D. 67-70. The nations of the earth were gathered against her in the form of the Roman armies who comprised people from all the known world. Josephus makes the point that the Roman army did in fact contain people from different countries of the earth.

The Jerusalem that God makes as an immovable rock for the nations is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The one contains blessings, the other curses because that was the provision of the old covenant - curse for disobedience. Outside of Christ Israel is disobedient. Jesus is the Israel of God, the Promised Land in which they/we rest. Jerusalem above remains intact because she is the eternal city of God and she is built on better promises, a better covenant that this old one they lived in. God protects His people and those that come against them and do not repent are judge in their disobedience too.

Jesus came, pouring on the inhabitants of the land a spirit of grace and supplication, yet many rejected Him. They will look on the One they have pierced. Who pierced Jesus? Was it not those of1st century Israel? Did He not tell the High Priest that he and the Sanhedrin would see Him coming on the clouds of glory (i.e., a confirmation of whom He is when He comes in judgment of these people who murdered the saints and prophets of old and the ones He would send to them). Who grieved and mourned for Him if not those that He prophesied would. Josephus records this wailing during the siege of Jerusalem where not only were there factions without the city but civil war within, brother against brother. How can you have clans/tribes without a genealogy to identify from which tribe/clan they come from? These are just some of the difficulties a futurist view has trouble answering. I see the futurist trying to make 'on that day' to mean 'in those days' which is not what it says, just like he/she applies 'this generation' to a far off future generation. But every mention of 'this generation' other than Matthew 24 the futurist is willing to apply to 1st century Israel. It is so inconsistent to do so, to make exceptions when there is no merit in doing so, just to suit a particular reading of Scripture as to make it relevant to them. Time will tell. What happens in 10 years from now when Messiah has still not come? What kind of projections will the futurist come up with then? Judging from the past, including from this very year of numerous failed predictions, anything is possible to private interpretation.

When Zechariah said plague in chapter 14, do you see nuclear war as a plague, the melting of flesh from heat as a plague? Do you see camels and horses in our near future? Many times the OT writers were guilty of hyperbola, of exaggerating events to stress a warning, because the people would not listen. But if these plagues are taken as literal, I still believe that they apply to 1st century people, either at her judgment before God or possibly in the siege of Jerusalem in which Josephus describes the Jews defending the walls as pouring hot oil and lighting it on these armies of Rome representative of peoples from all over the known world. Either way, I'm speculating for I have not found Scripture to confirm what this melting was caused from, as you have not either. If you have you have not shown me. To read into these verses nuclear war or some other kind of modern warfare with horses and camels. I find the futurist's inconsistencies disturbing.

Peter

#352
allofgrace

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Danielzk, for what it's worth I believe you are on the right track.

#353
gdemoss

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Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.



Hi Gary,

It is baseless only if the pronouns and nouns do not refer to them because these people, these apostles, these men of Galilee were told that this same Jesus would come back in the same way that they had seen Him go. How did they see Him go? Verses 10-11 addresses these men. 'He was taken up before THEIR EYES'. 'Why do YOU stand here?' These men were looking for His return in the 1st century. Other Scripture demonstrates this.

I guess that you cannot take Scripture literally then because terms like 'apostles', 'these men', 'they', 'you' 'them', 'Men of Galilee' are just terms that Jesus and the author used to confuse us into thinking it was 1st century believers. When the two men/angels, dressed in white asked, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky' or 'this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way in which you have seen Him go into heaven' this can be taken as any people at any time in history and means nothing or anything you want it to mean - a true postmodern response!

The term you have seen Him go implies that they will see Him return. In this context we see two men/angels whereas in other passages of Scripture we notice that Jesus comes with a myriad of angels and He comes in power and great glory, not like this passage to my mind at least.

Revelation 1:7 is a direct quote from Zechariah 12:10 and it concerns OT Israel - the twelve tribes, 10 from the northern kingdom and two from the southern kingdom. It says in Zechariah 12:1 that 'This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel, the ones who pierced their Messiah and the ones who mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Matthew 24:30 also says that the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. This same verse can be translated as all the tribes of the land.

As for not being told 'when' this coming would happen, I believe they were told. John 14:25-26; 16:12-15. Over and over again we see these time statements indicating that His return is near. John says, 'this is the last hour.' (1 John 2:18) Peter says, 'who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that IS ready to be revealed in the last time. In this YOU greatly rejoice...' (1 Peter 1:5-6a) 'The end of all things is near.' (1 Peter 4:7) 'It IS TIME for judgment to begin with US...' (1 Peter 4:17) 'Be patient, then brothers, until the Lord's coming...because the Lord's coming is NEAR...' (James 5:7, 8) 'For in a very little while, "He who is coming will come and not delay."' (Hebrews 10:37)

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


1 Thessalonians 2:16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]
Footnotes:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Or them fully

1 Corinthians 10:11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Revelation 1:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The list is long.

Peter


Ah, it makes sense to see what your seeing. In order for you to understand the text literally, the angels must be specifying that Jesus return must be exactly as it was when he was taken up, including the exact people who were standing there gazing up into heaven being alive and present seeing them with their eyes and cannot then apply to any other group of people. In your 'literal' understanding it cannot simply be that Jesus return would be in like manner though the people be a different people. I get that. I don't share your view but that is OK. I now understand why you cannot share mine and that is good to know.

Your other accusation that I cannot take scripture literally is baseless and trying to make me out to be one who is showing Jesus and the author to be one who confuses others is without merit, as there is one who uses the word of God to try to confuse you and I but it is not God nor them who he has sent. You ought not make such accusations.

#354
PGA

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Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.



Hi Gary,

It is baseless only if the pronouns and nouns do not refer to them because these people, these apostles, these men of Galilee were told that this same Jesus would come back in the same way that they had seen Him go. How did they see Him go? Verses 10-11 addresses these men. 'He was taken up before THEIR EYES'. 'Why do YOU stand here?' These men were looking for His return in the 1st century. Other Scripture demonstrates this.

I guess that you cannot take Scripture literally then because terms like 'apostles', 'these men', 'they', 'you' 'them', 'Men of Galilee' are just terms that Jesus and the author used to confuse us into thinking it was 1st century believers. When the two men/angels, dressed in white asked, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky' or 'this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way in which you have seen Him go into heaven' this can be taken as any people at any time in history and means nothing or anything you want it to mean - a true postmodern response!

The term you have seen Him go implies that they will see Him return. In this context we see two men/angels whereas in other passages of Scripture we notice that Jesus comes with a myriad of angels and He comes in power and great glory, not like this passage to my mind at least.

Revelation 1:7 is a direct quote from Zechariah 12:10 and it concerns OT Israel - the twelve tribes, 10 from the northern kingdom and two from the southern kingdom. It says in Zechariah 12:1 that 'This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel, the ones who pierced their Messiah and the ones who mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Matthew 24:30 also says that the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. This same verse can be translated as all the tribes of the land.

As for not being told 'when' this coming would happen, I believe they were told. John 14:25-26; 16:12-15. Over and over again we see these time statements indicating that His return is near. John says, 'this is the last hour.' (1 John 2:18) Peter says, 'who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that IS ready to be revealed in the last time. In this YOU greatly rejoice...' (1 Peter 1:5-6a) 'The end of all things is near.' (1 Peter 4:7) 'It IS TIME for judgment to begin with US...' (1 Peter 4:17) 'Be patient, then brothers, until the Lord's coming...because the Lord's coming is NEAR...' (James 5:7, 8) 'For in a very little while, "He who is coming will come and not delay."' (Hebrews 10:37)

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


1 Thessalonians 2:16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]
Footnotes:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Or them fully

1 Corinthians 10:11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Revelation 1:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The list is long.

Peter


Ah, it makes sense to see what your seeing. In order for you to understand the text literally, the angels must be specifying that Jesus return must be exactly as it was when he was taken up, including the exact people who were standing there gazing up into heaven being alive and present seeing them with their eyes and cannot then apply to any other group of people. In your 'literal' understanding it cannot simply be that Jesus return would be in like manner though the people be a different people. I get that. I don't share your view but that is OK. I now understand why you cannot share mine and that is good to know.

Your other accusation that I cannot take scripture literally is baseless and trying to make me out to be one who is showing Jesus and the author to be one who confuses others is without merit, as there is one who uses the word of God to try to confuse you and I but it is not God nor them who he has sent. You ought not make such accusations.


Hi Gary,

My apologies, I did not realize my words were being insensitive/offensive. I was trying to drive home the point.

Peter

#355
gdemoss

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Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.



Hi Gary,

It is baseless only if the pronouns and nouns do not refer to them because these people, these apostles, these men of Galilee were told that this same Jesus would come back in the same way that they had seen Him go. How did they see Him go? Verses 10-11 addresses these men. 'He was taken up before THEIR EYES'. 'Why do YOU stand here?' These men were looking for His return in the 1st century. Other Scripture demonstrates this.

I guess that you cannot take Scripture literally then because terms like 'apostles', 'these men', 'they', 'you' 'them', 'Men of Galilee' are just terms that Jesus and the author used to confuse us into thinking it was 1st century believers. When the two men/angels, dressed in white asked, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky' or 'this same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way in which you have seen Him go into heaven' this can be taken as any people at any time in history and means nothing or anything you want it to mean - a true postmodern response!

The term you have seen Him go implies that they will see Him return. In this context we see two men/angels whereas in other passages of Scripture we notice that Jesus comes with a myriad of angels and He comes in power and great glory, not like this passage to my mind at least.

Revelation 1:7 is a direct quote from Zechariah 12:10 and it concerns OT Israel - the twelve tribes, 10 from the northern kingdom and two from the southern kingdom. It says in Zechariah 12:1 that 'This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel, the ones who pierced their Messiah and the ones who mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Matthew 24:30 also says that the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. This same verse can be translated as all the tribes of the land.

As for not being told 'when' this coming would happen, I believe they were told. John 14:25-26; 16:12-15. Over and over again we see these time statements indicating that His return is near. John says, 'this is the last hour.' (1 John 2:18) Peter says, 'who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that IS ready to be revealed in the last time. In this YOU greatly rejoice...' (1 Peter 1:5-6a) 'The end of all things is near.' (1 Peter 4:7) 'It IS TIME for judgment to begin with US...' (1 Peter 4:17) 'Be patient, then brothers, until the Lord's coming...because the Lord's coming is NEAR...' (James 5:7, 8) 'For in a very little while, "He who is coming will come and not delay."' (Hebrews 10:37)

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


1 Thessalonians 2:16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]
Footnotes:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Or them fully

1 Corinthians 10:11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Revelation 1:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The list is long.

Peter


Ah, it makes sense to see what your seeing. In order for you to understand the text literally, the angels must be specifying that Jesus return must be exactly as it was when he was taken up, including the exact people who were standing there gazing up into heaven being alive and present seeing them with their eyes and cannot then apply to any other group of people. In your 'literal' understanding it cannot simply be that Jesus return would be in like manner though the people be a different people. I get that. I don't share your view but that is OK. I now understand why you cannot share mine and that is good to know.

Your other accusation that I cannot take scripture literally is baseless and trying to make me out to be one who is showing Jesus and the author to be one who confuses others is without merit, as there is one who uses the word of God to try to confuse you and I but it is not God nor them who he has sent. You ought not make such accusations.


Hi Gary,

My apologies, I did not realize my words were being insensitive/offensive. I was trying to drive home the point.

Peter


No problem Peter, sometimes we do that which we understand not until afterward. Especially when we want to drive home the point. I know I have been guilty of such for sure. :)

Gary

#356
PGA

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Hi Danielzk,

The question is not so much what the plagues were but when they would take place - on that day, the Day of the Lord, the day of His judgment. -Me



YES the question IS about What the plagues are ,,simple to understand that if what they are was not important scripture would not have gone into such detail about the type and severity of damage done..you trying to AVOID such detail that GOD put in HIS WORD! -Danielzk



Deuteronomy 28:58-61

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.


Zechariah 14

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

What day did this happen? IF that day had happened it would have been recorded by everyone that has the ability to keep records since it is such a unique day.
On THAT Day means a particular day , as in When It happens ,,future tense
Zechariah 14
11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

How do you explain that Jerusalem is secure ? with Iraq saying that as soon as they get nuclear warheads they will destroy Israel ,,and neighboring nations intend on the same .!! -Danielzk


I explain it by saying that the Jerusalem that is above is secure and will never be destroyed. God has told you in His word that this is the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God. In Zechariah, as in all the books of the OT you see both the physical earthly reality and what was to come, the heavenly reality. When you read Zechariah the two are being contrasted, just like the two lands, the two kingdoms are being contrasted.


Hebrews 11:8-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Footnotes:
  • Hebrews 11:11 Or By faith even Sarah, who was past age, was enabled to bear children because she


Hebrews 12:18-28

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”[a] 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[b]
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[c] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
Footnotes:You keep looking for an earthly kingdom. Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended to the right hand of the Father and He waited 'til His enemies were made His footstool in A.D. 70 when He came in judgment of them, for the Father left all judgment to the Son. Jesus' glory is His Father/Himself/theSpirit and His kingdom. Some of His disciples standing their would not taste death until they saw Him coming in glory and coming in His kingdom.



Matthew 16:27-28

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.


Do you not know that camels are still common in that part of the world and notice that is states "and all the animals in those camps." -Danielzk


Those camps were the camps and nations that fought in and over Jerusalem in A.D. 67-70. Josephus records not only the factions outside the city but those within it too. There were three divisions in the city all fighting for control, brother against brother. As I said before, either 'on that day' as identified in Zechariah 12:10 is the same day as 'on that day' in Zechariah 14, or you have two distinct days, not one, and what does 'that day' mean anyway?

In Zechariah 13:1 a fountain was opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to be cleansed. Jesus provided the fountain - He was the fountain. He came to this OT people to fulfill Daniel 9:24 - bring in an everlasting righteousness, put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, to anoint the most holy. Are you saying He has failed to do this?

In Zechariah 14:1-2, in that day, the nations are gathered against Jerusalem and fight against her. God is bringing vindication against all the blood shed on the earth, just as Jesus said He would in Matthew 23, in that generation, not this or some future generation.

LORD GOD ALMIGHTY says it will happen like this,,but you want to say that it is not literal.....That plague could be something that Jesus does against the enemies of Israel , it does not have to be nuclear war but whatever the plague is will cause the very distinct and specific type of damage that the LORD GOD says this plague will cause. -Danielzk


IMO, you fail to recognize the time if the Lord's coming in fulfillment of all that is written. He brought in a New Covenant by fulfilling the old, every jot and title of it. This is made plain over and over again in the NT. Circumcision of the flesh is required by OT Israel, not NT Israel. That was the condition of entering that covenant.


Do you believe that the plagues that God worked through Moses were not Literal ?
NO reason for this Zech 14 plague to not be Literal...You likely think that the parting of the sea was not real, or perhaps you believe that Passover did not kill anyone.

There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus first coming , HIS birth , HIS Life, His Ministry , His death that ALL were LITERAL and All came true exactly as the prophecies foretold -danielzk


Yes, I believe that the plagues brought through Moses were literal, just as many of the prophecies were literal, but they taught a spiritual reality of what was to come and what we have received in Christ, a kingdom not of this world, not seen through visible observation. What did Jesus say to those He came to save in the 1st century:


Mark 1:14-15

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
The Calling of the First Disciples

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

You project this nearness into the 21st century. How is that near to those who He was addressing in this passage? He said 'the time HAS come.

Peter

#357
PGA

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Hi Danielzk,

You still confuse the text in Zech 14 as it explicitly is speaking of the landscape of Jerusalem on earth that is attacked NOT a heavenly Jerusalem , this is another area where the preterist views fails , take a look at what is happening in the world today and notice that events today are in perfect alignment with multiple prophecies , it is impossible for men to attack heaven , it is impossible for heaven to have any plagues of any kind
THAT DAY is speaking of the day that Jesus returns to earth and scripture makes it clear that THAT DAY will be unique and describes the weather conditions in detail,,but as usual you fail to accept the scripture is literal -Danielzk


You are trying to make things that were prophesied for 1st century Israel fit into today's Israel and today's headlines. I think you do damage to the text of Scripture when you ignore God's timetable. I'll have more to say on this Israel of today in another post, if I remember. There are lots of things going on in my life at present that are causing me to be very absent minded at times - my wife is on oxygen and in poor health, losing my job, figuring out finances, thinking about what I will do next, waiting for the final two month announcement of my current employer.

Again, you are not comprehending what I have said. Zechariah presents a tale of two cities, two Jerusalem's, the earthly in which judgment/punishment from God is decreed per the old covenant, contrasted with the heavenly Jerusalem in which peace and salvation with God are the theme. The one city is an earthly physical city, the other is a heavenly, spiritual city. One is representative of the old covenant of the fleshly earthly Israel, the other of the new covenant of the new spiritual Israel and Jerusalem of God. The heavenly is victorious over the earthly, for the earthly city of this OT people is destroyed, whereas the heavenly city is everlasting (of which, BTW, cannot be the city or Israel that exists today, IMO). This theme of types and shadows is contrasted throughout the OT and explained in the new. Prophecy is looking down the corridor of time, much of the time to the time of Messiah in which all prophecy seems to point.

I might add too that Paul and other authors, inspired by the Spirit, taught the same thing, a heavenly and earthly Jerusalem, the new and the old nature, the natural and the spiritual, the old and new covenant.

You did not answer my question concerning 'on that day.' Does it represent the same day or two different days?

The problem with your interpretation is that you pick and choose which verses of a chapter and remove some and replace them with unrelated verses to cause it to read as you desire it to completely ignoring what is really written


Zechariah 14

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

So you tell us that this is not literal ! NO RAIN for those nations that don't go up! -Danielzk


I believe it appears to be conveying spiritual truths, IMO. Often in the OT, as well as in Revelation and other places in the NT hyperbola, imagery, symbolism, figures of speech, exaggeration is used to express an idea or concept. The concept of no rain speaks again of judgment, the consequences of disobedience. The King, the Lord Almighty as Jesus expressed in John 4:24 is Someone who we worship in spirit and in truth. Jesus said that the time is coming and has now come for this type of worship to happen, and He said it while He was on earth in the 1st century. When Jesus ascended to the Father He was given the kingdom of David, a kingdom that is without end. At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God. What does that expression - Jesus is Lord - mean to you?

Since this happens year after year it means continually that nations that have attacked Jerusalem will worship the Lord Almighty ,,the Lord Almighty of the Holy Bible NOT some other religion!

Since you think this Zech chapter has already happened these nations would be doing this year after year so be exact specific in which are the nations that have attacked Jerusalem that year after year worship the Almighty God of the Holy Bible? -Danielzk


I'm speculating, just like you are, but I believe this refers to those comprising the Roman army, who came from all the known countries of the earth, at least those relevant to what comprised the fourth kingdom. Luke 2:1 expresses the same concept concerning a census that should be taken of the entire Roman world. Since the gospel went out/was preached to the entire world of that time, many of the survivors could have come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They were still living on earth, like we live on earth today and worship Jesus spiritually. Another word for earth is land. It is possible that they were in the heavenly country. I don't know as of yet.


Zech 1418 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain.
The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

If Egypt refuses to partake in Festival of Tabernacles they get NO RAIN ,,!! -Danielzk



Again, if you consider that Egypt refers to sin and bondage, its a plea to come out of her or be punished. The Feast of Tabernacles is a call to go up to Jerusalem. On that day is a call to come to the New Heavenly Jerusalem, the heavenly city, or, as I have said before, to worship God in spirit and in truth. The kingdom of God is a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one. The earthly Jerusalem is judged and destroyed which leaves only the heavenly Jerusalem to my mind.

You continue to AVOID what scripture tells us ! -Danielzk



Not so. I'm starting to sound like a broken record when I ask you to explain 'on that day.' Do you know how many times it is used in Zechariah? As I have pointed out to you, Zechariah 12:10 taking place 'on that day' refers to the time in which the the people who pierced Him will look on Him and mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child. How do I know? Because Scripture tells me so!


John 19:36-37

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[a] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.[b]
Footnotes:Even though the Roman soldier pierced His side it was attributed to the Jews. They were instrumental and held responsible for His death.


Acts 2:36

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

It is obvious from the text of Zechariah 12 that this is the tribes of Israel who who pierced Him, in that they were responsible for His death, they were the ones who said 'Crucify Him.' So this all took place in the first century. The Scripture was fulfilled.

Again, in Zechariah 13:7, another passage in which 'on that day' is used three times we see the prophecy fulfilled in the first century.


Zechariah 13:7

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
The Shepherd Struck, the Sheep Scattered


7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.


Again we see the fulfillment in 1st century Israel:


Matthew 26:31

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:

“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’[a]

Footnotes:On that very night that prophecy was fulfilled.


Mark 14:27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

27 You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written:

“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[a]
Footnotes:
Peter fell away that very night and we see the other hiding in Jerusalem, afraid for their lives.

So here we go again: What does 'on that day' mean?

I'm taking the time to answer your questions. When are you going to answer mine?

Isaiah 11

8 6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,

the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,

This represents what life on earth will be like when Jesus returns ,,,literal -Danielzk


Does it? I suppose it does according to how you divide Isaiah 11 up. Paul again makes reference to that chapter in Romans 15:12


Romans 15:12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;

the Gentiles will hope in him.”[a]
Footnotes:Are you saying that this prophecy was not meant as a fulfillment when Paul noted it? Here is the argument, according to Don K. Preston in Like Father, Like Son On Clouds of Glory, p. 241, that the day of the wolf and the lamb lying down together (and the otther metaphors - me) is the same day as the day in which "the banner of the Messiah would be raised so that the Gentiles would be saved." Paul was in the habit of going into the synagogues in every town he entered that had a synagogue, but because his own people were hard of heart he turned to the Gentiles and became a minister to them.

Every thing that does not agree with your preterist view is considered to be not literal.......you don't see how that is suspect ? -Danielzk


I'm interested in what Scripture actually teaches, not what the popular opinion of the day dictates. Preterism is not the popular opinion of the day, yet it so far has answered consistently many of the questions that did not seem to fit before. There are many questions that I do not yet understand, but I'm listening for the answers in the word of God.

There are many scriptures that you totally disregard and misinterpret
Preterist view is totally invalid. -Danielzk


I believe you are wrong and you have not convinced me otherwise.

I continue to show you scripture that refutes what you teach but it does not get through to you because of your preference that is not in alignment with scripture -Danielzk


Not yet you haven't. You have shown me Scripture that is hard to interpret since we are 21 centuries removed from the time Jesus came to earth, but I believe that it is God's purpose for us to work out or salvation with fear and trembling, just as the early believers did. It is only when you have to defend a view that you begin to understand how sound it is. Criticism is a hard teacher that reveals much, no matter how unpleasant it seems at the time. Paul praised the Bereans for being more noble than the Thessalonians because they actually examined his message every day with great eagerness to see how it linied up and conformed to the Scriptures. The only Scriptures they had, to my knowledge, were the OT Scriptures, and Paul preached out of the OT Scriptures where ever he went, reasoning with and show those who doubted that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

Even in the most basic elementary entry level text of
Revelation 20

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations

These verses mean literally what they say ,,but since they are diametrically opposed to the preterist view ,,you totally disregard what the LORD says , to believe some false doctrine of deceived men -Danielzk


I've already explained what I believe about the 1000 year reign of Christ.

If I have understood you correctly you seem to demand that all prophecies of Jesus be fulfilled literally. It was a Roman soldier who pierced Jesus, but Scripture reveals that 'they will look on the One they have pierced' which points not to this literal Roman soldier, but to Israel. Do you honestly believe that every Scripture is fulfilled literally?

How many times are we told in the NT that Jesus came to fulfill all that was written about Him? Over and over OT Scriptures are shown to be fulfilled in Him. There are many, many references in the Gospel of Matthew alone. The epistles continue to reveal the same theme, the fulfillment of what has been written.


Romans 16:20

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

What does 'soon' mean to you?


Colossians 2:15

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[a]
Footnotes:What powers and authorities is he referring to?


Luke 10:18-19

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.


1 Corinthians 7:29-31

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
29 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.


Luke 21:22

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.


Luke 24:27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.



Acts 2:16-17

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.


This prophecy again fulfilled at the time of that generation that Jesus came to.


Acts 3:24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
24 “Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days.


1 Corinthians 10:11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.


Galatians 4:4-5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.


Hebrews 1:2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.


Hebrews 10:37

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
37 For in just a very little while,“He who is coming will come and will not delay.


James 5:8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.


1 Peter 4:7

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.


1 Peter 4:17

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


1 John 2:18

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Warning Against Antichrists

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.



Jude 1:17-19

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
A Call to Persevere

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


Revelation 1:1-3

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.



Revelation 3:10-11

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


Revelation 22:7

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
Jesus Is Coming

7 “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”

I'm interested how you apply all these verse, when taken in context, to anything other than the 1st century without reading into the text something it does not say.

#358
GoldenEagle

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These posts are getting a bit long. Perhaps we should re-focus the discussion and take point by point?

Thank you.

God bless,
GE

#359
Fez

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Agreed, and I am sure most members will agree, that these long posts are seldom if ever read. The secret to getting your point across on Worthy, and most other web sites (check out some of the news sites and blogs), are short sharp and to the point posts.

#360
OneLight

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In order to get a grasp on what is being said (taught) here, this thread is closed for review.




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