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Science Disproves Evolution


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#61
enoob57

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,The very nature of entropy', specifically the increase in entropy, is that systems tend from a more highly ordered state, specifically one in which there is energy that is available to do work, into a more disordered one, in which there is less available to do work. Systems tend toward that state when left alone. I like the example of dumping blue paint into a vat of red. That the blue paint would stay in that specific spot 3 hrs later, so that you have a nice clean blue dot in a sea of red paint is highly unlikely. Likewise if you dump boiling water into cold water. So long as you have a nice temperature difference you can, in theory, extract work from that temperature difference. But as you intuitively know, once the two are mixed in short order you will have the system in a lukewarm thermal equilibrium. However, suppose you keep adding heat to the system, suppose you have a heater in the corner of a vat of cold water, you could maintain a temperature difference for a longer amount of time-- and you could indefinitely if you had a heat sink as well as a heat source- and in that way maintain a system with low entropy. This is why you cannot assume entropy will always increase in a system that has heat added or taken away.

This is exactly the point being! It is a digression... which then logically introduces the presence of a constant of digression present in a system with digressional parameters still in effect thus taking us into the necessity of beginning of this digression to be present and an ending due to the simplicity of its own witness... and further by demand of the digression when applied to the infinite exist its presence would also not be here as infinite and entropy placed together we could not be... thus defining begin and end to the system we have began in although it surpasses our minimal exist the over all picture of presence demands the logic of outside our experience... fulfilling this response of God's Word
Ro 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
so that they are without excuse,
NKJV
It is uniqueness to me the clarity we are being moved into by this truth and the last days of our exist with the increase of
knowledge... how that people who invest themselves in the program of writing away God by evolution are becoming more
and more ridiculous in so doing... to put this all simply-> because we have rot of all things our very presence which the rot
also works upon demands rot to have a begin and end! However for rot to be here and the infinite to be a reality-> rot also

had to have began (entropy demands beginning when applied to infinite reality)...
Love, Steven

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#62
Pahu

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There is another possibility though to contend with. What about the possibility that physical things have always existed in one form or another? That doesn't seem too far fetched. I think it's also important to recognize that evolution doesn't suppose that everything came about by pure 'chance'. The process is guided at least by the rules of chemistry and the lower order, at a higher order natural sexual and sexual selection. If you want to effectively respond to the issue I think you are going to need to respond to the actual position, not a strawman of it.

Entropy isn't an issue for evolution. Part of the life cycle is driven by the energy the earth's surface gets from the sun on a daily basis. Plants transform that energy into something usable for their growth, which in turn animals eat. You could also talk about the internally generated eat from the core. The point is this, the surface of the earth is not an insulated system, it's one in which heat is being added. In such a situation entropy can decrease.



The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.
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#63
enoob57

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There is another possibility though to contend with. What about the possibility that physical things have always existed in one form or another? That doesn't seem too far fetched. I think it's also important to recognize that evolution doesn't suppose that everything came about by pure 'chance'. The process is guided at least by the rules of chemistry and the lower order, at a higher order natural sexual and sexual selection. If you want to effectively respond to the issue I think you are going to need to respond to the actual position, not a strawman of it.

Entropy isn't an issue for evolution. Part of the life cycle is driven by the energy the earth's surface gets from the sun on a daily basis. Plants transform that energy into something usable for their growth, which in turn animals eat. You could also talk about the internally generated eat from the core. The point is this, the surface of the earth is not an insulated system, it's one in which heat is being added. In such a situation entropy can decrease.



The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.

It is the reality That God has said I AM that I AM... and in all the thought ever combined it is merely naught
in the framework of His Being... knowledge passes away as the wonder of the infinite becomes experience ... to
become unbounded in Him and the wonders yet that will be... :thumbsup: Love, Steven
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#64

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There is another possibility though to contend with. What about the possibility that physical things have always existed in one form or another? That doesn't seem too far fetched. I think it's also important to recognize that evolution doesn't suppose that everything came about by pure 'chance'. The process is guided at least by the rules of chemistry and the lower order, at a higher order natural sexual and sexual selection. If you want to effectively respond to the issue I think you are going to need to respond to the actual position, not a strawman of it.

Entropy isn't an issue for evolution. Part of the life cycle is driven by the energy the earth's surface gets from the sun on a daily basis. Plants transform that energy into something usable for their growth, which in turn animals eat. You could also talk about the internally generated eat from the core. The point is this, the surface of the earth is not an insulated system, it's one in which heat is being added. In such a situation entropy can decrease.

The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed.

Pahu,

Re the entropy issue, please see my post above yours. I addressed that exact thing when I responded to Stephen.

Whether or not there are an infinite number of events that is possible is an interesting question. My first response is, suppose you have a B theory/eternalist account of time, that is, you think that every moment in time exists equally to another. That there is a passage from past to present with future 'in the front' is an illusion. I think this position is supported by relativity anyway. On that account the problem dissipates entirely since moments are not crossed at all. The second response is, assuming that A theory is right/presentism, and that only the present is 'real' and there is passage through time there is still a solution. Do we agree that there can be an infinite number of events in the future? I think we all want to say yes, there can be. If that is so, then we are stuck also agreeing that there can be an infinite number of past events as well because the two problems are symmetric. The same arguments you want to run against the possibility of an infinite number of past events can be run against the possibility of an infinite number of future ones. It is an interesting question though.

Obviously it's important to concede that stuff *can* exist forever, because God does. If we say that God exists outside time, that is equivalent to invoking an eternalist account.

also t hat makes me re-ask my question. Could God have, forever, been responsible for the creation of some forever existing stuff? If so, and I think so, then none of this could be leveraged against the possibility of God existing.


In

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:15-17

My Bible

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

I Find Dear Brother Pahu Is Spot On

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3

For The Only Reason The Universe Is Not At Its Zero Potential Energy State Is Because Of Jesus Christ

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

For The Only Reason The Universe Exists Is Because Of Jesus Christ

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

For The Whole Reason For The Universe Is Jesus Christ

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

And The Cosmos Will Soon Pass Away

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Before The Face Of Jesus

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:21-24

Amen~!
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#65

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It would seem that the eye is an example of an irreducibly complex biochemical system.


It would seem that it isn't. Actually, its design (if you mean the human eye) is rather suboptimal.

Ciao

- viole


The Strange Thing About Human Eyesight It Seems

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

If One Does Not Use It One Will Lose It

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2 Corinthians 4:3-5

So Keep Looking Up

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:12-15

And Stand Fast

The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 111:7-10

In Wisdom

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe
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#66
Pahu

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Obviously it's important to concede that stuff *can* exist forever, because God does. If we say that God exists outside time, that is equivalent to invoking an eternalist account.

also t hat makes me re-ask my question. Could God have, forever, been responsible for the creation of some forever existing stuff? If so, and I think so, then none of this could be leveraged against the possibility of God existing.


God created everything. God is eternal. The stuff He created is not. It had a beginning when He created it.
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#67
enoob57

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Obviously it's important to concede that stuff *can* exist forever, because God does. If we say that God exists outside time, that is equivalent to invoking an eternalist account.

also t hat makes me re-ask my question. Could God have, forever, been responsible for the creation of some forever existing stuff? If so, and I think so, then none of this could be leveraged against the possibility of God existing.


God created everything. God is eternal. The stuff He created is not. It had a beginning when He created it.

It is as you have said and the why it is so:
God essence the eternal substance of Spirit
Jn 4:24
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
As Spirit is unbounded by all that we have been born into yet creation depicts a point to as witness of what
Spirit 'IS'
Ro 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and
Godhead, so that they are without excuse
NKJV
In Spirit (His presence within) we are not pressed to define, surround, encompass, conquer etc... but
accept in the vehicle of faith! As we are carried about within this vehicle we begin in a sanctification
process that allows us to increase in His Word thus increasing in the faith (the very vehicle we are in)
and this is understood by this verse
Jn 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but
cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who
is born of the Spirit."
NKJV
It also explains the war we are in with these bodies as it demands from it's source this world and no other!
This is why we cannot befriend our bodies or this world~ because we are born of His Spirit and His Word does
increase us-> to where we have not yet been (but) Believe so that we give up this all that we have known in
assurance of that which 'IS' written... His Word effectively becomes our entire foundation of life...
As this is unbounded substance not confined by created event but held in His (God's) good pleasure... Love, Steven
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#68
D-9

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Entropy isn't an issue for evolution.

The very nature of entropy is the digression of all matter/energy moving out of useable status of life as we know it.... yes it is a clock of substantiated law that brings reason into a fact of begin and end by its presence!
Love, Steven

This is exactly the point being! It is a digression... which then logically introduces the presence of a constant of digression present in a system with digressional parameters still in effect thus taking us into the necessity of beginning....
It is uniqueness to me the clarity we are being moved into by this truth and the last days of our exist with the increase of
knowledge... how that people who invest themselves in the program of writing away God by evolution are becoming more
and more ridiculous in so doing.
Love, Steven


I don't know enough to comment on entropy as it pertains to the origin of the universe (albeit I'll make a wild guess that since the QM version of "nothing" can produce "something" as "nothing" in QM is "unstable", a universe may be able to 'spontaneously' appear via entropy, or maybe not, I have no clue), but I do know that entropy is not a barrier to evolution taking place, life, or abiogenesis. You cannot deny that the laws of the universe demand that a closed system, which for all intent and purposes we can view the universe as a closed system as far as I know, always increases in entropy; it always goes towards disorder. As far as I know the best way to increase the entropy of a system is to release heat, again as far as I know heat is the least useful form of energy and the diffusion of heat (unless impeded) requires no extra expenditure of energy and will do so spontaneously.

But while a closed system must always increase in entropy, a closed system can make use of pockets of decreased entropy which in turn produces heat, making the overall system increasing in entropy. If this was not possible our bodies wouldn't be able to make the food/energy each of our cells need to survive and move; IOW if you cannot get pockets of decreased entropy in an overall increasing entropic system we would all die instantly. This is why life is possible; while we are pockets of decreased entropy, we release heat via chemical interactions which will eventually make the universe as a whole more disordered. And given that evolution is what life does permitted that said life is self-replicating with the process imperfect and a selection process (all of which are allowed under the laws of thermodynamics) entropy does not make evolution impossible.

And a final note which Bary touched on, our environment is not a closed system. We get heat from the interior of the Earth, via entropic principles btw, and even more so by the Sun; the Sun is another pocket of decreased entropy which through the laws of entropy spontaneously fuses atoms to make new atoms so long as the reaction can a) be undertaken by said Star (e.g. a more massive star will be able to make more types of reactions as it has a higher core temperature) and b) said reaction is exergonic, meaning that it will release more heat/energy than said process consumes which will increase the overall entropy of the closed system which is our universe. Earth receives the Sun's energy, and through the laws of entropy the biosphere harnesses that energy to sustain life, which will in turn make the universe more disordered in the end.
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#69
Fez

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There are two main sections to Worthy Boards, the Inner Court and the Outer Court. The Inner court is designed for fellowship and discussion among those who know Jesus Christ as Savior. The outer Court is an area where we allow anyone who wishes to learn more about our belief to ask questions and learn. Those who join Worthy who do not claim Christ as Savior will be designated "nonbeliever'. This designation will mean that they will only be able to post in the Outer Court area. They can read every part of the Forums, but their discussions will be limited to one area.


The emphasis being on..

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This thread does neither, and is bordering on a teaching post. teaching that is not based on our belief, nor the intent of the forum.

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