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Israeli state in 1948

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#1
Babbler

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Israel became a state in 1948. So when is this generation suppose to end (Matthew 24). It is now 2012, sixty-four years since Israel became a state. I guess Hal Lindsey's book of the seventies, The Late Great Planet Earth, was wrong. No rapture, no tribulation and no anti-Christ. What did he call everybody when they disagreed with him when citing 2 Thessalonians 2.Confusion comes from where? What will be the argument in another sixty-four years and the second advent has not occurred.

#2
joi

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Let that be a lesson to the date setters!

#3
OneLight

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A few things to consider. First, we have no idea how long a generation really is and secondly, some say that it is 1967 when Israel took back Jerusalem as the beginning of the clock.

#4
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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the english language today.

#5
OneLight

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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation loosely meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the english language today.

Then when it was mentioned that this generation will not pass, what race was He referring to?

#6
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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation loosely meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the english language today.

Then when it was mentioned that this generation will not pass, what race was He referring to?



the jews, of course.

#7
OneLight

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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation loosely meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the english language today.

Then when it was mentioned that this generation will not pass, what race was He referring to?



the jews, of course.

Yes, of course. So, using this line of thinking, the Jewish race will cease when He returns?

#8
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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation loosely meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the english language today.

Then when it was mentioned that this generation will not pass, what race was He referring to?



the jews, of course.

Yes, of course. So, using this line of thinking, the Jewish race will cease when He returns?






You're using greek binary thinking.


He doesn't say anything about when they will end. He just says that they won't "pass" before that happens.

Have they?


Where are the Samaritans, the Edomites, or the Romans?

#9
OneLight

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Usually Jesus had reason to make such statements, otherwise there would be no purpose in His words. I am sure He said that this generation shall not pass for a reason. What do you feel His reason was?

#10
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Usually Jesus had reason to make such statements, otherwise there would be no purpose in His words. I am sure He said that this generation shall not pass for a reason. What do you feel His reason was?




I already said that but I'll repeat.


He was saying that the jewish people would not disappear from the earth. Basically he's repeating what Jeremiah said earlier (chapter 33) about God watching over Israel when they were about to go into captivity. In that case, they were about to be carried off to Babylon, yet Jeremiah made the bold prediction that they would return by buying field (indicating there would be a future crop grown on it)

Yeshua was, in like manner, saying that they would go through some very hard times but would not pass away. That might not seem like a big deal to you now, but when you consider all that they've been through since then, it is pretty amazing.



But think about it this way, if Spalding comes out with a new generation of golf clubs, they are saying these are unique from what came from them before, and that they are also different from what Wilson or Sears produces.... but it has nothing to do with how long they will last necessarily.
It's simply referring to a specific "race" of golf clubs.

#11
OneLight

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Thanks for repeating yourself because I have a hard time following you sometimes. Can you point to where in Jeremiah you are referring to so I can see the likeness? I must admit, this is the very first time I have heard such an explanation like what you present.

#12
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Thanks for repeating yourself because I have a hard time following you sometimes. Can you point to where in Jeremiah you are referring to so I can see the likeness? I must admit, this is the very first time I have heard such an explanation like what you present.



With pleasure!


In chapter 33, Jeremiah is confined and Israel is about to go into captivity. Jerusalem is under seige and it looks like all hope may be lost. A betting man might laugh at Israel surviving another month.





For this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says about the houses in this city and the royal palaces of Judah that have been torn down to be used against the siege ramps and the sword 5 in the fight with the Babylonians[a]: ‘They will be filled with the dead bodies of the people I will slay in my anger and wrath. I will hide my face from this city because of all its wickedness. 6 “‘Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security. 7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity[b] and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.’

10 “This is what the LORD says: ‘You say about this place, “It is a desolate waste, without people or animals.” Yet in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted, inhabited by neither people nor animals, there will be heard once more 11 the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, saying,

“Give thanks to the LORD Almighty,
for the LORD is good;
his love endures forever.”

For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,’ says the LORD.

12 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘In this place, desolate and without people or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,’ says the LORD.

14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it[c] will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.’

17 For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 “This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”

23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 24Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms[d] he chose’? (Hmmmm.....where there christians back then?) So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not made my covenant with day and night and established the laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes[e] and have compassion on them.’”



#13
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And by comparison, when you look at Matt 24, Yeshua is talking about something called "Abomination that leads to desolation".


Desolation means it's over. All hope is lost.

Yet He promises that the elect will be saved. This is important because that is what the Messiah was expected to do. He was telling the audience, who believed He was the Messiah that would deliver them, that they will not pass away and that means they will return to their land after it becoming "desolate".


He will, in fact, deliver them....but we have 20/20 hindsight and now understand that it wouldn't happen like they thought.

#14
OneLight

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Please be patient with me as I ask for more clarification. According to you, Jesus had no intention to place any timetable at all on His message in Matthew 24 when He said "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place", but only said this to reflect to what was said in Jeremiah 33, supporting Israel forever. How can you make such as leap? I don't disagree with anything in scripture, but I have a hard time accepting that this was what Christ was referring to. I just don't see the link between Matthew and Jeremiah.

#15
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First of all I don't claim infallibility on this, ok? I'm just saying that this is how I read it.


Did you understand the "Spalding golf clubs" comparison? A generation of anything is a specific group that is different from another. Yes, we usually mean the term in english to describe a specific age bracket that grows up in a time frame together but I see no reason to limit a "people group" to any specific length of time in this particular passage like the time-setters have done, since Yeshua didn't speak modern english or greek...and we aren't exactly sure of what He would have said in hebrew or aramaic which got translated into jewish-greek for the NCS (Newer Covernant scriptures)


So..... Jeremiah is speaking after Israel had already been taken away by the Assyrians into captivity and, for all practical purposes, disappeared. Now it was Judah's turn. All hope was certainly lost by this time yet Jeremiah told them that Judah and Israel would return someday. This race of people were promised their survival was as sure as the stars in the heavens, though there was absolutely no reason to believe they would even last out the month.

By comparison, Yeshua is speaking to the disciples who asked when the Kingdom would be RESTORED TO ISRAEL. They are referencing ALL of the Prophets by asking this question because that is the hope of the ages. Instead of what they expected to hear, He goes into a discussion about how the Temple would be destroyed and everyone would flee to the mountains but that wouldn't be enough. There would be a horrible time when no flesh would be saved, had those days not been shortened. Do you see the similarities in their situation?

So after saying basically that Israel was going to be destroyed, He then tells them that this "generation" of people (Jews) would survive even that...and by extrapolation confirming what Jeremiah had said about the people of Israel existing as long as the sun, moon, and stars do.

#16
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Is there a difference between Jews, Israelis

and remnants of the twelve tribes?

#17
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Is there a difference between Jews, Israelis

and remnants of the twelve tribes?




Not since the days of Ezra and Nehemiah.


In the Newer Covenant scriptures, "jews, israel, circumcision, and hebrews" are all interchangable terms.

#18
Babbler

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I have always thought of a generation as 40 years, due to how long the Israelites wandered the desert after leaving Egypt. As far as the generation in Christ's prophecy concerning the temple, in his Olivet discourse, I do not apply that to any end time prophecy.

#19
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I looked up "generation" in Strongs and the word in hebrew is "dowr" (Strongs #1755) which does mean a "revolution of time" that is an age..... and also a "dweliing"

However, in Greek the word has a wider definition. Strongs #185 is the root word, "genos". This is the word from which we get "gene" (which determines a person's race) and it means "kin" and has the definition of - born, country(man), diversity, generation, kindred, nation, offspring, stock.


So it can be used to describe one's "kin" without necessarily putting a time frame on it.

#20
Bold Believer

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I would say 1967 is where a clock should start, but "generation" in an english translation has a different meaning that what Yeshua meant, I believe.


I think he was only saying that the Jews (generation meaning "race") would not disappear before this happened. it has been 2,000 years since He said that and no other people or nation in history has survived without a country like that. I have always doubted that God sat down and averaged life-expectancies of people living in the 21st century to arrive at a specific age that equals a generation, as defined by the English language today.


The word used was genea, the primary meaning of which was generation, not race. There was approximately 40 years from the time of the statement to the destruction of Jerusalem, however, if they were already within the span of that generation, it could be longer. All Jesus said was that the current generation (remember, he was addressing a crowd of people who lived in that generation) would not pass (i.e., it would not have ended) until all of the things He spoke of took place.

Pre-millennialists are not reliable eschatologists because their eschatology depends upon certain events occurring. When the events don't occur, they have to revise everything. The dispensionalists in general are still playing 'pin the tail on the antichrist', and they will be until they realize that John was not speaking of an end time dictator personality. They will search in vain for "Mr. 666" and Nero will continue to roast in Gehenna. He's dead. He will be until the Last Day.




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