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carlos123

Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

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Yet if I commit murder and I ask you to forgive me do you have capacity? I believe only God would have that capacity. I would argue that perhaps others wouldn't agree.

God bless you.

In Christ,

GE

In my post I stated that if one believed what the gospel says then the person would be able to tell them theirs sin are forgiven. No where in scripture does it say if another person forgives you of something you did to them or someone else they loved and they ask you to forgive them that God goes along with the forgiveness. I made it clear, only God can forgive sin. Not saying you implied I said that, but just wanted to make what I said clear. Have a good day.

I was just clarifying brother. :thumbsup: I understood this in bold from your posts. However, there are quite a few people reading this thread by the thread count that aren't posting. And others have implied or even argued differently than your comment in bold as you are aware.

Some of the things we do on the site as Servants is attempt to help guide those who are new to the faith and struggling regarding God's Word I'm sure you can understand.

God bless you!

In Christ,

Jon/GE

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You didn't, but you didn't address anything I said either, you only posted more of your belief as if what I said meant nothing. The point is, which has to be dealt with, is scripture tells us that forgiveness of sins is only due to the cross through His shedding of His blood. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not shed any blood, only the Son.

As pointed out, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are three entities that are one in every way. Do you agree with the this diagram below?

shield-trinity-scutum-fidei.png

There appears to be an error in your diagram. The part in the diagram that says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God is correct. But the error is that they were never separate. To say that the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and the Son separates them......when they are actually one. In fact, this is what the Bible says:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names).

There is the error of your belief system, believing that God sends Himself as three different entities when there are three entities, separate but one. Thinking that when scripture tells us in 1 John 5:7 they are one, that they are physically just that, one entity, is false. Scripture tells us that they are one in every way, but separate. They think the same, they believe the same, they feel the same, they agree completely, but they are not each other. Who did the Father send to be a sacrifice for sins, Himself? Who did Jesus send when He returned to the Father( Himself?), the Holy Spirit (Himself?) They are three different entities who have a bond that is perfect in every way.

Selene, scripture is very clear that Jesus came to die for our sins, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. They all agreed that this is how it was to be done. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Jesus is the creator of all there is, therefore, the Everlasting Father. He is not the Father as in Jehovah. He is the Son,Yeshua, the Word, who through Him all things that were created was created..

Brother Onelight, if you honestly believe that Jesus Christ the Son is the ONLY Savior and Salvation, then you need to ask yourself why the Bible also calls God the Father "Saviour" (See 1 Timothy 2:3) and that salvation comes from God the Father (Psalms 68:20). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all play a role in mankind's salvation. That is why even the Father is called "Saviour" and salvation comes also from the Father. They are one. They were never separate. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that they were separate. It had always said they were one or in union. I'm now going to sleep. Good night.

1 Timothy does not say God the Father, it says "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". You are adding to scripture to back your personal belief.

You cannot take the way one was saved in the OT and apply it to how one is saved during this age. That is just wrong exegesis. We do not wait in paradise for Christ to come and preach salvation to us. Yet, if you notice, they were not saved until Jesus preached salvation to them, salvation through Him.

John 14:6 states: "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

We also read in John 5:31-23 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." If the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, who else is there that can forgive, for in order to forgive, one has to judge there was sin.

Being one does not mean they do the same things. You are adding this without scriptural backing. You have been shown over and over with scripture that forgiveness and salvation comes only through the Son.

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I believe that Selene is right about God the Father and Jesus both being referred to as God our Savior as in

1 Tim 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Titus 2:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It would be hard to say that both of these verses are not saying that both the Father and the Son are called Savior. The Titus passage is the strongest of the two in its wording but both seem to be pretty clear that both are referred to as Savior, at least to me. V4 says when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior. Not to mention that the OT has several more that I believe would say the same.

Edited by allofgrace
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Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one. They were never separate. Even Christ pointed out that He and the Father are one.

Hello Selene,

This is interesting. Can you explain how Jesus and the Father are presented as being separate( Jesus on Earth Father in Heaven etc ) in many places in the bible. For instance the Father spoke from heaven when Jesus was on Earth.

2Pe 1:17-18 KJV For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

I thought Jesus and the Father being one meant they were united in solidarity and essence etc.

Hello Ninhao,

The Father and Son are never separate. The Bible says that they are one, united, in union, or in a relationship, but the Bible never said nor indicate that they were separate. I think that our concept or idea of "separate" is not the same as God's definition. For example, God always pointed out that husband and wife are one. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say they are separate. Yet, humans see them as separate. The Bible always says that Christ and His Church (His Bride) are one. And when the Apostle Paul persecuted the Church, Christ came to Him and said "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" Christ never said, "Why are you persecuting the Church? - which is really what Paul was doing. But to God, He and His Church are one and not separate.

Isaiah said that the Son to be born will be named "Wonder-Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. The Son is named or called the Everlasting Father, and the "Counselor". Counselor is another name for the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

What should be most interesting is the fact that Isaiah says that the NAME of the Son is "Wonder-Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Prince." To the Jewish people, the name of a person is extremely important. There is a lot of significance in a person's name and their name is a big deal. For example, when God's changes Abram's name to Abraham or Saul's name to Paul, this name change is a significant thing. In fact, the name of God is so significant to the Jewish people that they only pronounce His name once a year - during Yom Kippur. So, for Isaiah to say that the Son's name is "Wonder-Counselor (Holy Spirit), Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace" indicates the nature of the Messiah who was to come. The passage tells us that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not separate. They may be distinct only in that one is the Father, the other the Son, and the other the Holy Spirit.......but all three are one and not separate (as humans tend to see with their limited and fallible vision).

And God's nature was never an easy one to explain. Because the Bible calls the Son and the Father a "Savior", then I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all took part in the entire salvation of mankind......but this is something that cannot be explained easily despite the fact that Scripture calls the Father a Savior. It is just something that comes from "faith." And "faith" needs no explanation.

Ok thank you Selene. From your comparison to husband and wife being "one" now I can understand your perspective. Although they are one they still have separate bodies and can be in separate places. Is this the position you hold concerning Jesus and the Father ? I suppose the crux of my question is do you believe our Father was in Heaven while Jesus was on Earth ?

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1 Timothy does not say God the Father, it says "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". You are adding to scripture to back your personal belief.

You cannot take the way one was saved in the OT and apply it to how one is saved during this age. That is just wrong exegesis. We do not wait in paradise for Christ to come and preach salvation to us. Yet, if you notice, they were not saved until Jesus preached salvation to them, salvation through Him.

John 14:6 states: "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

We also read in John 5:31-23 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." If the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, who else is there that can forgive, for in order to forgive, one has to judge there was sin.

Being one does not mean they do the same things. You are adding this without scriptural backing. You have been shown over and over with scripture that forgiveness and salvation comes only through the Son.

Everything in the Bible is the word of God and that includes the Old Testament. I'm sure that you agree that both the Old and New Testament are the word of God. Also, I never said that they do the same things. I said that all three took part in the entire salvation of mankind. They all took part in the entire salvation of mankind because the Son cannot do anything without the Father.

Everything in scripture is the word of God, but that is not the issues we are discussing. But before we continue, tell me, do you follow all the 613 laws in the OT since it is the included in the word of God and is His commandments?

John 5:19-21 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Why did you stop before the end? The rest of this passage reads, as I posted before:

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." The Father, according to His word, no longer judges. This is plain and simple to understand. They do not do everything, though they are capable. Each has their own purpose, though they are in full agreement. You never addressed the fact that the Father remained in heaven while Christ came to this world. Why do you think that is? IF they both do the same things, why didn't the Father die on the cross instead of the Son? Could it be You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.?

This is why I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not separate. They were never separate. They were always one, united, in union, and always in a relationship. When a person is one and in union with God, they behave as He is. A person separated from God is a sinner. Thus, the Son could never be separated from the Father. This is also the reason why Jesus' name is translated to mean "Yahweh saves." Yahweh is the name of the Hebrew God in the Old Testament.

Nobody but you are saying that people think they are separate in the sense that they have different beliefs. We are saying that they have different things, or responsibilities, they fulfill, and one does not do what the other is doing. I have pointed this out before. Did you not read it?

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Hello Ninhao,

Jesus Christ is God, and the Father is also God. God is everywhere. He is not bound by space. God the Father is in you and in me at the same time. Christ is in you and in me at the same time. The Holy Spirit (who is also God) is in you and in me at the same time. There is nothing impossible that God cannot do.

God bless!

Selene

Ok Selene so the analogy of husband and wife doesn't fit your belief because they can be in separate places, and act independently, while still being one ? Are you saying the Father was in Jesus while He was on Earth as well as being in heaven and vice versa ?

The bible indicates the Father, Son and Holy spirit can be in different places and Jesus once said He didn't know something the Father did.

Mar_13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Your position is too confusing for me to accept but thanks for explaining.

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Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Uhoh :D

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Selene,

Please tell me if I understand what your saying.

When the apostles healed the sick, or rasied the dead, or preformed any other miracle, it was not them doing it but Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit preforming the healing or miracle through the apostle. It was not there words or there power to heal, but Christ's. They were a continuation of His ministry. Jesus Continued his ministry through the 12 apostles. So when they spoke, it was Christ speaking through the Holy Spirit through the Apostles. So when you say, he gave them power to forgive sin, your really saying it is Jesus Christ forgiving the sin through the Holy Spirit through the apostles. For the scripture states the Holy Spirit will not speak his own, but will only speak that which he hears.

Is this what you are saying? Is this YOUR point?

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Selene,

Please tell me if I understand what your saying.

When the apostles healed the sick, or rasied the dead, or preformed any other miracle, it was not them doing it but Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit preforming the healing or miracle through the apostle. It was not there words or there power to heal, but Christ's. They were a continuation of His ministry. Jesus Continued his ministry through the 12 apostles. So when they spoke, it was Christ speaking through the Holy Spirit through the Apostles. So when you say, he gave them power to forgive sin, your really saying it is Jesus Christ forgiving the sin through the Holy Spirit through the apostles. For the scripture states the Holy Spirit will not speak his own, but will only speak that which he hears.

Is this what you are saying? Is this YOUR point?

Yes, firestormx......that is exactly what I have been saying and I even cited this scripture below to support what I say. I actually posted this scripture a few times, but for some reason some people ignored it.

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Ok, Selene

I know of 3 main line of thinking in the christian church today on the subject of the power of God in word or deed.

1st, all healing, miracles and raising of the dead stopped with the death of John. They are not for today.

2nd, That when a believer is called of God, they will reach a point in there walk where God will send his " annointing " on them, then They can heal, they can raise the dead, and they can preform miracles, and they can use whatever gifts they have been given. Because the " annointing " was given to them. It's there's and they are accountable for it. It's there ministry.

3rd, That from the apostles all the way down to today. When a healing, miracle, or raising of the dead is done, it's not the person, but Christ through the Holy Spirit doing it. It's a continuation of the ministry of Christ.

Now, numbers 1 and 2 I don't agree with, because I believe they are unscriptual. I believe number 3. Included with that is the verse you spoke about Mark 13:11. I myself know that Christ through the Holy Spirit can speak through a believer. That it can be God's word's and not our own. An example, A couple years ago, I was with a friend of mine who wasn't a believer, and had never seen the true power of God. On this day, I knew the Spirit of God was present with me very strongly. I had spent the day in prayer before this, but didn't know why. As we were talking, I suddenly started telling her, that she was abused as a child. It felt exactly like speaking in tongues, but I was speaking plain english. I went into some very graphic detail with her about it. It all finished and stopped after I told her that all this would come out into the open in a way the she would not be embaressed but would be told the truth in full. That she would know that Jesus Christ lives, and he loves her. She told me she had no memory of anything like this happening to her and laughed in my face. 6 months to a year later she called me and begged me to come right over. She had been to see her family that day. Her uncle had pulled her aside, and asked for her forgiveness for molesting her as a kid. He had come to salvation in Christ, and felt the need to seek forgiveness from her. The minute he started speaking, she said all the memories came back., as did my conversation with her. In the end every word that come out of my mouth was completely true. Shortly after this event she got saved. She said she never forgot how God spoke to her, and prepared her through me.

I say all that to say this to you selene, I do believe God can speak through a believer, he has done it through me. But why is there no record of this forgiveness of sin through a apostle or believer ever recorded? I understand your saying that it's still Christ forgiving he's just doing it through someone else, but why no record of it. Do you attruibute what happened with paul and the corithanians with there sexual sins to this? Or the book of revelation and the letter's to the churches, where it says, if they don't repent ( parphrasing) there candle would be removed? Can you give biblical backing for this?

Firestormx

Joseph

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Forgiveness of sins was still part of Christ's mission and ministry. And that goes back to the OP, which ask "Christ paid for all our sins - past, present, and future. I disagree with the OP. I believe that Christ forgave our past sins, and the present sins that we confessed to. But there is nothing in scripture saying that our future sins are ALREADY forgiven..

To say they are paid for is different from saying they are all forgiven. All sin was paid for by his death on the cross, but forgiveness comes only once we confess our sins with our mouth and believe in our heart. Then his sacrifice is attruibuted to us. It's like your holding the winning lottery ticket, but If you die without claiming the prize, then you forfiet the prize. Christ has already paid the price for all sin. Jesus doesn't have to pay the price for our sin again. He did it once and is now sit down at the right hand of the Father until his enemies be made his footstool. The responsibility to accept him and his sacrifice is now ours. Christ paying for all our sins past presant and future, is not the same thing as saying all sin for every person is forgiven past presant and future. If that was the case, then every person who ever lived would go to heaven.

Firestormx

Joseph

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Just to add my 2 cents it is hard to answer this question without getting into stuff like once saved always saved, but to answer simply salvation does not come from works alone. When we are saved we want to turn from sin. We will never be sin free while we are here in the flesh, Jesus was the only man and ever will be the only man to walk sin free. But there is a big difference between sinning but trying to stop and resenting that sin, not wanting to sin.. then there is sinning freely without concern or wanting to stop but simply enjoying it and because Jesus covered us and we are good to go so to speak.

It is almost like a child who wants to please his/her parents. Everything the child does he/she does to make the parents proud and happy because the parents mean teh world to the child. The child depends on the parents for everything and loves the parents like no one else. Now kids are kids, and children can't help but to mess up at times. But they mess up because they are kids, they do not do it to hurt their parents on purpose and they feel terrible when they do mess up. When a little child does something that makes the parents upset the child was not thinking at the time "I will do this because I know my parents will forgive me so I will take full advantage of that and do whatever I want" The child was likely taken by a moment of temptation to get into the cookie jar so to speak. I know my little boy loves me and his mom more than words can describe, he always wants to be with us and always wants our attention. I have never seen him want to be by himself, he wants to be right there between us from the time he wakes up until the time he goes to bed. When my wife cleans he wants to help clean. When I tinker at fixing something he wants to tinker too. Whatever we do he wants to do too. I think of a relationship with Jesus like that, there is no time we should say "ok Jesus, I need some time alone to do a few things your not going to enjoy" but rather we want to be with him, we feel a need to be with him always, and we are always trying to please him. But in the moment that we slip because of our sinful ways as humans and put our hand in the cookie jar we feel terrible about it.

I also believe a Christian never stops growing, there is never a point in this life when a Christian says I've reached the peak of my walk with Christ and I am now sin free. I will stop myself here before I get into free will and once saved always saved subjects.

Edited by Psalm25
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There are many things not recorded in the Holy Bible. We know, for example, that after He ascended into Heaven, Christ raised the dead through the Apostle Peter in Acts 9:40, but there was no record of Christ giving that authority to Peter or any of the Apostles to do miracles. After His resurrection, Christ told His Apostles to baptize all nations, preach the Gospel to all nations, and to forgive sins or retain sins. There was no mention of any authority to perform miracles such as raising the dead given. John explains the reason for the absent in scripture best:

John 20:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

We do read of when Jesus spoke in Acts 1:4-8

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Through the power brought by the Holy Spirit does one accomplish such works, as you say.

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Forgiveness of sins was still part of Christ's mission and ministry. And that goes back to the OP, which ask "Christ paid for all our sins - past, present, and future. I disagree with the OP. I believe that Christ forgave our past sins, and the present sins that we confessed to. But there is nothing in scripture saying that our future sins are ALREADY forgiven..

To say they are paid for is different from saying they are all forgiven. All sin was paid for by his death on the cross, but forgiveness comes only once we confess our sins with our mouth and believe in our heart. Then his sacrifice is attruibuted to us. It's like your holding the winning lottery ticket, but If you die without claiming the prize, then you forfiet the prize. Christ has already paid the price for all sin. Jesus doesn't have to pay the price for our sin again. He did it once and is now sit down at the right hand of the Father until his enemies be made his footstool. The responsibility to accept him and his sacrifice is now ours. Christ paying for all our sins past presant and future, is not the same thing as saying all sin for every person is forgiven past presant and future. If that was the case, then every person who ever lived would go to heaven.

Firestormx

Joseph

Hello Brother Joseph,

The Bible says that He paid for past sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paying for our sins means to forgive our sins. That was what His sacrifice on the cross was about because He was the Lamb of God who took away sins. Christ did His part in taking away our sins. Now, we need to do our part in making sure that we confess and repent from our sins. As the Apostle Peter said AFTER Pentecost when the crowd asked what they should do.......Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." The Apostle Peter never said to do nothing because all sins were paid for.

If all sin is forgiven, then everyone goes to heaven.

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Forgiveness of sins was still part of Christ's mission and ministry. And that goes back to the OP, which ask "Christ paid for all our sins - past, present, and future. I disagree with the OP. I believe that Christ forgave our past sins, and the present sins that we confessed to. But there is nothing in scripture saying that our future sins are ALREADY forgiven..

To say they are paid for is different from saying they are all forgiven. All sin was paid for by his death on the cross, but forgiveness comes only once we confess our sins with our mouth and believe in our heart. Then his sacrifice is attruibuted to us. It's like your holding the winning lottery ticket, but If you die without claiming the prize, then you forfiet the prize. Christ has already paid the price for all sin. Jesus doesn't have to pay the price for our sin again. He did it once and is now sit down at the right hand of the Father until his enemies be made his footstool. The responsibility to accept him and his sacrifice is now ours. Christ paying for all our sins past presant and future, is not the same thing as saying all sin for every person is forgiven past presant and future. If that was the case, then every person who ever lived would go to heaven.

Firestormx

Joseph

Hello Brother Joseph,

The Bible says that He paid for past sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paying for our sins means to forgive our sins. That was what His sacrifice on the cross was about because He was the Lamb of God who took away sins. Christ did His part in taking away our sins. Now, we need to do our part in making sure that we confess and repent from our sins. As the Apostle Peter said AFTER Pentecost when the crowd asked what they should do.......Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." The Apostle Peter never said to do nothing because all sins were paid for.

If all sin is forgiven, then everyone goes to heaven.

I agree, which is why I don't think all present and future sins were paid for.

All sin is atoned for at the Cross through Jesus Christ. (One time payment or sacrifice)

All sin is forgiven when there is repentence except for rejecting God's Holy Spirit in denying Jesus Christ. (In time whenever the request is made)

When people ask God to forgive their sins He does so because of the Holy Spirit living in them if they are Christ-followers. (In time whenever the request is made)

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If all sin is forgiven, then everyone goes to heaven.

I agree, which is why I don't think all present and future sins were paid for.

The bible dosen't teach that everyone goes to heaven, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has always been one and never separate. Distinct but definitely not separate. In the same way, Husbands and wives are distinct from each other in that the husband is the head of the house and the wife is not, but they are one. The Bible never says that the husband and wife is separate, but there is a distinction. A distinction is not a separation. I hope that helps in explaining it more.

Ok. Father Son and Holy spirit are all God yes. The comparison to husband and wife is still a little sketchy though. A husband and wife perform different and independent things while being in unison. They are in eachothers presence in essence but not always physically.

I suppose I get you, but I still can't apply that the Father died on the cross this seems specifically related to Jesus. This doesn't line up with what actually happened nor with any analogies I can find in the bible. For instance Abraham offering Isaac on the alter, but God instead providing the sacrifice etc.

We can say God the Son died, but we can't say the Father or the Holy Spirit died. If we die that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit , Jesus , or even the Father in us dies.

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However, the bond between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can never be broken because there is no death for them. So, I think the word "separate" would be the wrong word to use.

Ok Selene I can live with that :) Would "different" be a more acceptable word?

I have heard a saying before " exactly the same but different" :D

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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has always been one and never separate. Distinct but definitely not separate. In the same way, Husbands and wives are distinct from each other in that the husband is the head of the house and the wife is not, but they are one. The Bible never says that the husband and wife is separate, but there is a distinction. A distinction is not a separation. I hope that helps in explaining it more....

Ok. Father Son and Holy spirit are all God yes. The comparison to husband and wife is still a little sketchy though. A husband and wife perform different and independent things while being in unison. They are in each other's presence in essence but not always physically.

I suppose I get you, but I still can't apply that the Father died on the cross this seems specifically related to Jesus. This doesn't line up with what actually happened nor with any analogies I can find in the bible. For instance Abraham offering Isaac on the alter, but God instead providing the sacrifice etc....

We can say God the Son died, but we can't say the Father or the Holy Spirit died. If we die that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit , Jesus , or even the Father in us dies....

.... the bond between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can never be broken because there is no death for them. So, I think the word "separate" would be the wrong word to use....

Totally Synced

And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. Ezekiel 1:19-21

See

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:21-23

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There are many things not recorded in the Holy Bible. We know, for example, that after He ascended into Heaven, Christ raised the dead through the Apostle Peter in Acts 9:40, but there was no record of Christ giving that authority to Peter or any of the Apostles to do miracles. After His resurrection, Christ told His Apostles to baptize all nations, preach the Gospel to all nations, and to forgive sins or retain sins. There was no mention of any authority to perform miracles such as raising the dead given. John explains the reason for the absent in scripture best:

John 20:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

We do read of when Jesus spoke in Acts 1:4-8

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Through the power brought by the Holy Spirit does one accomplish such works, as you say.

And when they did receive the Holy Spirit, the power they received was the "speaking of tongues." No mention of performing miracles such as raising the dead.

That is an assumption because speaking in tongues is what He had them do as a witness to others that the Holy Spirit has come upon them. Consider it in introduction to His arrival, is you wish, but tongues was not all they received. Speaking in tongues is, in fact, a miracle in itself, do you agree?

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