Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Can a Christian swayed so far in losing the Holy Spirit ?

* * * * * 1 votes

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
45 replies to this topic

#41
rjp34652

rjp34652

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 445 posts

Much of the discussion here assumes that the condition of a born again Christian is similar to the Hollywood stereotype of a possessed madman, without the drooling mouth, foul language, and special effects.  There is much that seems to be misunderstood.

 

A Christian is not merely possessed of the Holy Spirit as one might be possessed of a demon.  He or she is one with it - merged, melted together and formed anew.   In addition, being filled with a spirit - any spirit - isn't the same as the second birth either.  There is a special spiritual meaning behind the second birth.  It's more, much more than a simple belief system or even a spiritual possession (manipulation of the body by a supernatural entity).

 

John 3:1-6 is the story of the visit of Nicodemus' evening visit with Jesus.  As you recall, after a tentative statement of faith, Nicodemus hears Jesus hit him dead center in his unasked question.  First Jesus tells him that nobody can see the Kingdom of God without the second birth and then Jesus tells him what it is.  The second birth is perhaps the greatest miracle in the pages of the Bible and one that is least understood today.

 

"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold, new things have come."

- 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

The meaning of Jesus' answer to Nicodemus is mirrored in the passage from Corinthians and tells us that the Holy Spirit is actually joined with the human spirit to create an entirely new spirit.   In the physical body the sperm joins with the egg to create a new creature.  The new person carries the qualities of both parents, but is a unique individual at the same time.   In the same way the born again human spirit carries the qualities of its parent human spirit and its parent Holy Spirit and is created a new spirit being.   This new spiritual being carries the qualities of both spiritual parents, the human and the Holy, and is thus said to be born again.

 

"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins."

- Mark 2:22

 

The corruption of the human soul unto evil is so pronounced as to be irreversible.   The human cannot be saved at all.  Period.   In order to redeem the person, a radical change is necessary.  It is so radical that the first step God must take is to avenge His divine justice by shedding Christ's blood upon the cross.  The payment for sin must be permanent because the second birth is permanent.

 

Being cleansed of sin, the human spirit can then be joined to the Holy Spirit to create a new spiritual entity.   This is the meaning of Mark 2:22.   The entire human spirit must be remade - reborn as the scriptures say.   The scripture even suggests that the process of knowing God might actually destroy the human spirit if it were not first remade/reborn.

 

The flesh remains the same after the second birth except in instances where healings are performed.   The mind is altered in time by the gentle presence and prodding of the new spiritual being that resides with it and becomes like that which influences it daily - the mind of Christ.  One cannot walk with God and be unaffected.   This is also the meaning of the guarantee of eternal life, since that life has already begun in the nature of the second birth.

 

Which brings us to two questions often asked; can one lose one's salvation and can one's flesh be manipulated/possessed of evil? 

 

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

Romans 6:13

 

Not only is it possible for one's members to be manipulated or possessed by the enemy, Christians are warned not to do so -  it is forbidden.

What happens if we do?   There remains the possibility of damage to the mind and body by the unclean entity and there remains the possibility of chastisement or punishment by God if this habit persists.   Scripture goes so far as to suggest that God might even shorten one's life if necessary.

 

Can a man be unborn again?   That's the real question isn't it?  Can one lose one's faith?  Yes.  Can one exit the church?  Yes.  

 

Faith in religious terms is a mental conviction, not a spiritual reality.   I've known people who've been born again and who acted like the devil.   It is not my place to judge such a person, but I will certainly avoid them - as we are told to do in scripture.  Faith in spiritual terms is something else altogether - it is the substance of deep reality and cannot change.  Can one exit the church?  In these times when so many have been betrayed by self-styled leaders, the question seems to be not whether one should exit the church, but when.

 

Finally filling is the action whereby a spirit assumes control over a human body.  This control can be partial (where the human is aware of being manipulated), or total (where the human has no memory of the episode).   On one occasion while swimming in the surf in San Juan I nearly drowned.  I was being carried out to sea by a rip tide when the Holy Spirit filled me and caused my body to swim safely to shore.   I did not have the strength to do so and the experience was one of partial awareness.  My body was manipulated and my mind simply observed.  On the other hand, I have actually witnessed a person become totally occupied by an evil spirit and who did not remember the episode at all after the fact.   When studying the filling of the Holy Spirit (or any spirit), one must remember that such occupancy is both temporary and physical.  The purpose of filling by a spirit is to manipulate or operate the body.  The body is thus owned by or possessed by a different spirit than the one it naturally and normally is operated by.

 

In Summation:

The second birth creates an entirely new spiritual entity.  It is a new creature in Christ.  The spiritual entity cannot be unmade.  There is nothing in the Bible to suggest such a thing is possible.   There is, however, a plethora of suggestions that punishment and early death may result from pet sin in the life of such a person.

 

Filling of a body by a spirit has the purpose of temporarily manipulating the body for some purpose.   If the Holy Spirit, then the purpose is for the greater good of the person and/or the church.  If an unclean spirit, then the body is abused in some unhealthy fashion.   I've heard the experience described as being so vulgar and draining that the afflicted person wants to take a bath or shower and a nap to rid themselves of the nasty sensation.   This is why Jesus usually told people to feed a person freed of an unclean spirit.*   On the other hand, the Holy Spirit leaves one feeling clean and invigorated.  

 

Power comes from the Holy Spirit to the body and spirit.  Power goes to an unclean spirit from the body.  An unclean spirit is a spiritual parasite and one that can indeed afflict a Christian.

 

Let the wise man understand these words and be enriched by them.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

(*) Hollywood assumes the opposite.  As for example in the movie GHOST when Patrick Swayze manipulates a human body.  He, the ghost, is weakened.  The reality is the exact opposite.  The human is weakened because the unclean spirit is sucking energy from the body.   In another example, in the 1920's Edgar Cayce, called the sleeping prophet, allowed his body to be occupied so many times by unclean spirits that the experience actually weakened his body into death. 


Edited by rjp34652, 09 July 2013 - 11:30 PM.


#42
MarkNigro

MarkNigro

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 567 posts

When you are born again, you receive the Holy Spirit and can never lose the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a gift when a person beleives in Jesus Christ. God does not take back that gift.

 

John 7:38-39

 

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

Romans 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

Ephesians 11:30

And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

While a saved person cannot lose the Holy Spirit, they could certainly grieve the Holy Spirit or quench the Holy Spirit in them.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:19

Quench not the Spirit.

 

In fact, we are encouraged to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

Ephesians 5:17-20

 

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;


Edited by MarkNigro, 14 July 2013 - 06:43 AM.


#43
WalkTheWay

WalkTheWay

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

1 Timothy 4:1  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


Edited by WalkTheWay, 22 July 2013 - 11:47 PM.


#44
rjp34652

rjp34652

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 445 posts

There is this lady in my friend's work place that claimed to be a Christian, being baptized many years ago but seldom goes to church anymore. Just given her the benefit of the doubt that she once shown fruits of the spirit in the past, and now turned aggressive, hostile, controlling, jealousy, insecurity, abusiveness and harassing toward her co-workers for the purpose to discredit and mentally destroy them to serve her own selfish ends.

These evil behaviors no doubt are manifestation of the foul spirits inside this person. One of the victims happens to be my close friend who is a devoted Christian who is now in agony and dismay. It makes more sense since any true Christians in hostile territory would be assaulted by the enemies. Anyway,

Back to the topic, and based from these facts, what do you make of it? Most would probably say she never was a faithful servant to begin with. Think outside the box for a second, could one actually lose the Holy Spirit when the rebellious nature of that person goes beyond a certain threshold ?

 

********

I doubt that you are interested in any answer to the primary question in this thread.

What you seem to really want is a suggestion as to how you may help your friend and what advice you may give her.

 

The simple answer to the lead question is NO.   A born again person cannot be 'unborn again' any more than a child can reenter their mother's womb and have the fertilizing sperm removed from the egg.   The second birth is a fusion of the Holy Spirit and the human spirit resulting in an entirely new spiritual entity.  Not for nothing does the NT say over and over again that we are 'new creatures in Christ'.  Do you think those scripture lines are just platitudes and empty phrases?  If they mean anything at all they MEAN that those who are born again ARE NEW CREATURES.  Such a creature cannot be unborn again any more than an adult can be stripped of their DNA.   It might make for an interesting Science Fiction story, but that's all it is - fantasy.

 

With regard to misbehavior of a person who is truly born again, God must be trusted.  He is, after all, able to pluck His own geese is He not?

 

Apart from giving your friend moral support and prayer time, what happens in her office isn't really your business is it?   America is now a breeding ground for lots of little office NAZIs, and neighborhood NAZIs, and bigots of every flavor who believe its their mission in life to make everybody else's life miserable.  Land of the free and home of the brave?  Not any more, dear reader.  We are all proud of the fascist police state we've created.  May God have mercy upon us.

 

The best advice for your friend is to leave her work place immediately.   It is better to live in peace on a crust of bread than to have a well paying job and be treated like a dog.

 

Christ did not die so that we could tolerate slavery.

 

If it was good enough for Moses and Jesus and Abraham Lincoln it ought to be good enough for us.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....


Edited by rjp34652, 03 August 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#45
2404

2404

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 228 posts

 

There is this lady in my friend's work place that claimed to be a Christian, being baptized many years ago but seldom goes to church anymore. Just given her the benefit of the doubt that she once shown fruits of the spirit in the past, and now turned aggressive, hostile, controlling, jealousy, insecurity, abusiveness and harassing toward her co-workers for the purpose to discredit and mentally destroy them to serve her own selfish ends.

These evil behaviors no doubt are manifestation of the foul spirits inside this person. One of the victims happens to be my close friend who is a devoted Christian who is now in agony and dismay. It makes more sense since any true Christians in hostile territory would be assaulted by the enemies. Anyway,

Back to the topic, and based from these facts, what do you make of it? Most would probably say she never was a faithful servant to begin with. Think outside the box for a second, could one actually lose the Holy Spirit when the rebellious nature of that person goes beyond a certain threshold ?

That which is born of God will endure to the end... 1 Jn 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
NKJV

Love, Steven

 

 

Amen

 

God is omniscient.

He doesn't do something just to take it back later.

If she is one of His He will bring her back, one way or another.



#46
bopeep1909

bopeep1909

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,893 posts

Their was a thread a while back about a Christian being put on the shelf.Anyone remember this?Apparently this is from a Christian who has consistently not followed Christ for quite some time.This was an article that Dr.Charles Stanley did.

No the Holy Spirit will never leave the true believer.Although it is possible for our sin to "quence the Holy Spirit" or "grieve the Holy Spirit".Sin has its conseqences with God.Unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with Him and quence quence the Holy Spirit's works in our lives.That is why it is important to confess our sins to God.Even thought the Holy Spirit will not leave the believer the benefits of the joy of the Holy Spirit can depart from us.






Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network