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Should the Bride of Christ Return to its Hebrew Roots?


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Should the Bride of Christ (the Church) Return to its Hebrew Roots?

I'm also interested in Scripture that backs this line of thinking.

In Christ,

Jon

Ground Rules:

Let us remember humility, as Believers we are heirs of God with Christ. (Philippians 2:3; 1 Peter 5:5, Romans 8:17) Remember we are to seek restoration with a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 6:1) We are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. (Ephesians 5:32)

Edited by GoldenEagle
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Should the Bride of Christ Return to its Hebrew Roots?

Please Excuse Me Beloved Jon But Did You Mean To Ask

And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. Jeremiah 3:11

Should The Nation Of The Hebrew

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

Return To Her Husband

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:25-26

Her KING

I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17

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Should the Bride of Christ (the Church) Return to its Hebrew Roots?

I'm also interested in Scripture that backs this line of thinking.

In Christ,

Jon

Ground Rules:

Let us remember humility, as Believers we are heirs of God with Christ. (Philippians 2:3; 1 Peter 5:5, Romans 8:17) Remember we are to seek restoration with a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 6:1) We are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. (Ephesians 5:32)

That would depend on what you mean by returning to it's Hebrew Roots.

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Interesting thoughts Joe… Thanks for sharing. Glad you should ask other one. :)

I submit returning to Jewish roots is not the answer for the Church. Gentiles are not called to live as Jews. At least from a Biblical perspective as evidenced by the following:

I. The Jerusalem council’s decision regarding circumcision and Christians following Jewish custom as seen in Acts 15 set the precedent.

Do you disagree with this passage regarding Gentiles? Are we Gentiles called to become Jewish again?

Acts15:28-29

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

II. Paul addressed this in the letter to the Galatians… Was his labor in vain to teach them the Gospel he wondered?

Galatians 4:10-11

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

III. Paul also addressed this in the letter to the Colossians:

Colossians 2:16-17

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

IV. Before we go there when Paul called on the Corinthians to "keep the Passover" in 1 Corinthians 5, he was clearly speaking of this in spiritual terms. Do you agree or disagree?

V. Regarding Feasts... What do you think of these three pre-suppositions? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree please list reasons with Biblical backing.

(1) Celebration of the biblical feasts is not a means for a Gentile believer to "become Jewish." Jews and Gentiles have equal standing in the Lord, and Jews are not called to become Gentiles nor are Gentiles called to become Jews. (See Gal 3:28 and Col. 3:11)

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

(2) Jesus must be central in everything we do (this cannot be overemphasized.) We are free in Christ. (See Gal. 5:1 and Rom. 8:2)

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

(3) Celebration of the feasts is not commanded in the New Testament and should not be practiced in a binding or legalistic way. (See above passages)

VI. Is the Church the new Israel or are grafted into Her as Christians are adopted into God’s family?

Still need to research this last point.

I am open to discussion and correction if I am not presenting Scripture correctly.

Thoughts anyone?

In Christ,

Jon

Edited by GoldenEagle
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This discussion at this point is all physical. Eat, drink ,live. Jesus was so much of the time speaking spiritually and the people thinking physical. "You must be born again", "How can a man climb back into his mothers womb?"

It's obvious in scripture that we as gentiles have no obligation to live in the manner of the law since these things all pointed to and were fulfilled in Messiah. We are in Him. But "spiritually", biblical understanding wise, we should have never left our Hebrew heritage.

The scriptures are middle eastern literature. Hebrew scripture with a Hebrew mindset. There is nothing wrong with taking part in and celebrating passover as a memorial but there is something wrong with not understanding the messianic typology of the passover. The roots support the tree. No root, no tree.

Understanding there was a second temple period rabbinical school of learning and they handled scripture a certain way helps us to understand more clearly what was really happening in the Gospels. Also Paul being well taught from these schools and the other writers being of that era used the same type of biblical approach Read Jude.

And helps to understand how Peter when reading in the spirit could use this text;

Pour out thine indignation on them,

and may thy burning anger overtake them.

May their camp be desolate;

May none dwell in their tents.

For they have persecuted him whom thou thyself hast smitten,

and they tell of the pain of those whom thou has wounded. Psalm 69:24-26

and this one;

Appoint a wicked man over him;

and let an accuser stand at his right hand.

When he is judged let him come forth guilty;

and let his prayer become sin.

Let his days be few;

let another take his office. psalm 109:6-8

and clearly see this was speaking of Judas.

Acts 1:20

"For it is written in the book of psalms,

'Let his homestead be made desolate, and let no man dwell in it';

and, 'His office let another take.

Some of our rules of interpretation would say you just can't pluck scripture out of context like that and put it together, so what was Peter doing? The Psalms are saturated with messianic typology.

The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms. We need to take things further.

So yes, the bride needs to return to her Hebrew roots.

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. . .

The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms.

Well spoken!

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Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write out the responses your questions deserve, so please forgive the brevity and lack of references.

I. The Jerusalem council’s decision regarding circumcision and Christians following Jewish custom as seen in Acts 15 set the precedent.

Do you disagree with this passage regarding Gentiles? Are we Gentiles called to become Jewish again?

Acts15:28-29

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

No, Gentiles are not required to become Jews. (Just as Jews should not be required to become Gentiles - I know that's another debate, but this is how 'the Church" has treated the Jews the past 1900 years.)

However, there is no indication the original congregations (where the Gentile-believers came from the group of "God-fearers" who sat in on the Synagogue meetings) did not honor such things as gathering on the Jewish Sabbath, celebrating the Feasts of the Lord, . . . basically worshiping God as the Jews did.

II. Paul addressed this in the letter to the Galatians… Was his labor in vain to teach them the Gospel he wondered?

Galatians 4:10-11

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

There is a difference between the obligation to the Law and that of free-will celebration.

I've participated in a few Passover Seders, and the parallels of the ceremony elements to the sacrifice/death of Jesus and hope for His resurrection and return are quite remarkable - even the traditions that had developed over the years (i.e. the Hidden Matza).

It was also an eye-opener to discover that "Pentecost" is the Greek word used for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, the feast celebrating the Giving of the Law. The parallel being that 50 days after Jesus rose, the New Law was given. :) (The prophecy of writing the Law on our hearts.)

Then it was pointed out to me how Jesus died at the same time the the Passover Lamb was sacrificed at the Temple.

And Jesus rose from the dead on the day the Jews were celebrating the Feast of First Fruits.

Can you see that these Feasts were designed by the Lord for His people to join into His Passion?

III. Paul also addressed this in the letter to the Colossians:

Colossians 2:16-17

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Yes, a shadow of things to come. most Christians don't understand how exactly they are a "shadow of things to come" though. (See my above point.)

Now compare how the Feasts prophecy the death and resurrection of Messiah and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to all flesh with what our traditional Christmas and Easter celebrations symbolism do or do not or reflect.

I say, having done both, there is a difference between becoming an active participant in the remembrance of Passover and that of sitting in a pew listening to a sermon or watching/listening to an artistic demonstration and singing a few songs.

IV. Before we go there when Paul called on the Corinthians to "keep the Passover" in 1 Corinthians 5, he was clearly speaking of this in spiritual terms. Do you agree or disagree?

I believe it to be both.

...Cont. below...

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V. Regarding Feasts... What do you think of these three pre-suppositions? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree please list reasons with Biblical backing.

(1) Celebration of the biblical feasts is not a means for a Gentile believer to "become Jewish." Jews and Gentiles have equal standing in the Lord, and Jews are not called to become Gentiles nor are Gentiles called to become Jews. (See Gal 3:28 and Col. 3:11)

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

I agree.

(2) Jesus must be central in everything we do (this cannot be overemphasized.) We are free in Christ. (See Gal. 5:1 and Rom. 8:2)

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

I agree.

(3) Celebration of the feasts is not commanded in the New Testament and should not be practiced in a binding or legalistic way. (See above passages)

I personally believe the original Gentile followers were celebrating the Feasts, worshiping the Lord God as the Jewish believers did (and not following the ways of worship practiced by the Pagans and Philosophers of their cultures.

Thus there was no need for Paul to command or not command such activity. He only commanded not to celebrate them as a means to holiness or whatever. Basically, celebrate them as a celebration, not as an obligation.

VI. Is the Church the new Israel or are grafted into Her as Christians are adopted into God’s family?

Still need to research this last point.

Every time I read Romans 11, I read we are grafted into the already standing olive tree. I do not see we were ever made a new tree.

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Increasing our understanding of the Hebrew mindset behind the Word is a good thing. It certainly can't hurt. Just beware of Judaizing.

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@ Nebula I'm going to have to pray about what you've posted. Some good thoughts. I will try to reply tonight or tomorrow.

Increasing our understanding of the Hebrew mindset behind the Word is a good thing. It certainly can't hurt. Just beware of Judaizing.

I agree to a certain point. Care to expound on the concept of Judaizing?

Edited by GoldenEagle
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Thank you Nebula and Selene, sometimes I brace myself for comment on what I've written not knowing if it will be taken in the spirit in which is was intended, and it's always good to know something we've said makes sense.

Praise the Lord.

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Should the Bride of Christ Return to its Hebrew Roots?

Please Excuse Me Beloved Jon But Did You Mean To Ask

And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. Jeremiah 3:11

Should The Nation Of The Hebrew

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

Return To Her Husband

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:25-26

Her KING

I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17

Touch'e, touch point.
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Interesting thoughts Joe… Thanks for sharing. Glad you should ask other one. :)

I submit returning to Jewish roots is not the answer for the Church. Gentiles are not called to live as Jews. At least from a Biblical perspective as evidenced by the following:

I. The Jerusalem council’s decision regarding circumcision and Christians following Jewish custom as seen in Acts 15 set the precedent.

Do you disagree with this passage regarding Gentiles? Are we Gentiles called to become Jewish again?

Acts15:28-29

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

II. Paul addressed this in the letter to the Galatians… Was his labor in vain to teach them the Gospel he wondered?

Galatians 4:10-11

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

III. Paul also addressed this in the letter to the Colossians:

Colossians 2:16-17

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

IV. Before we go there when Paul called on the Corinthians to "keep the Passover" in 1 Corinthians 5, he was clearly speaking of this in spiritual terms. Do you agree or disagree?

V. Regarding Feasts... What do you think of these three pre-suppositions? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree please list reasons with Biblical backing.

(1) Celebration of the biblical feasts is not a means for a Gentile believer to "become Jewish." Jews and Gentiles have equal standing in the Lord, and Jews are not called to become Gentiles nor are Gentiles called to become Jews. (See Gal 3:28 and Col. 3:11)

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

(2) Jesus must be central in everything we do (this cannot be overemphasized.) We are free in Christ. (See Gal. 5:1 and Rom. 8:2)

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

(3) Celebration of the feasts is not commanded in the New Testament and should not be practiced in a binding or legalistic way. (See above passages)

VI. Is the Church the new Israel or are grafted into Her as Christians are adopted into God’s family?

Still need to research this last point.

I am open to discussion and correction if I am not presenting Scripture correctly.

Thoughts anyone?

In Christ,

Jon

Woot, Woot. Thumps in the upward position, Golden Eagle.
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If I have the fulfillment, why in heaven would I walk in the foreshadow. If I have the substance of reality, why in heaven would I walk in the type - in remembrance - not I.

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Should the Bride of Christ (the Church) Return to its Hebrew Roots?

Selene, the OP talked about Hebrew Roots, not you have included the Book of the OT, which is it. Of course the OT books are extremely useful for us today, it contained knowledge, wisdom, and instructions. The OT is anointed, it is God's word. Paul told Peter, "if thou liveth as do the Gentile [believers]", so if Peter lived as do the Gentile saints, I am not going to live as do the Jews.

It is knowledge of Hebrew customs and mindset, not our playing it out in our lives today, I might carry something heavier that a dried grape on the Sabbath. The Torah wasn't meant for me in that way, but it is meant for me in some other way, but not it the doing of it.

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What act of Judaism do you want Christians to obey. Christ is everything to me, I am complete in him. Help me understand what you mean.

Welcome to the board, btw.

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I think we are in agreement, just there is ambiguity (is that the word), there is confusion. I see the validity of knowing the world that the Hebrews lived in, their culture and customs, very much so. We should be able to tell the months in the Jewish calendar, and explain the feast type and fulfilment, we should know the marriage custom, the whole nine yards.

You are correct in this.

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I think we are in agreement, just there is ambiguity (is that the word), there is confusion. I see the validity of knowing the world that the Hebrews lived in, their culture and customs, very much so. We should be able to tell the months in the Jewish calendar, and explain the feast type and fulfilment, we should know the marriage custom, the whole nine yards.

You are correct in this.

With regards to the Feasts, the Knowledge makes more sense when it is lived.

Note, I'm not asking for a requirement to celebrate (if you can), just a recommendation.

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By the way, there is a prophecy about the Feast of Tabernacles being celebrated by all the nations after Messiah rules and reigns from Jerusalem.

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I think we are in agreement, just there is ambiguity (is that the word), there is confusion. I see the validity of knowing the world that the Hebrews lived in, their culture and customs, very much so. We should be able to tell the months in the Jewish calendar, and explain the feast type and fulfilment, we should know the marriage custom, the whole nine yards.

You are correct in this.

With regards to the Feasts, the Knowledge makes more sense when it is lived.

Note, I'm not asking for a requirement to celebrate (if you can), just a recommendation.

:taped:
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Not sure what you mean by that?

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Not sure what you mean by that?

I am protecting myself from getting in trouble with the staff. Right, it is better not to post if you fear you will write something inappropriate, I have to think things out, or move on.
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So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

How do YOU rationalize your sin?

I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.

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So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

How do YOU rationalize your sin?

I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.

We have a fight-picker in our midst. Fight, Fight! :clap:
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Tracker Jack, your a newbie here and you are already accusing us of sin, not a way to fit in, and make friends.

Have you heard of the Grace of God?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Roman 8

God doesn't condemn us of sin, yet you in your exalted cleanness and purity do. :-)

I am sorry Tracker Jack, for being so nasty and I am sorry, Golden Eagle, for bringing nasty to your thread.

This is one offense of mine that the Mod's should have caught, i called Jack a Newbie, I have been a member since 20006 and that doesn't make me anything, we are all accountable.

I tried my best to make amend's.

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