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rollinTHUNDER

MISCONCEPTION: The Seven Year Tribulation

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I believe their will be a full 7 year tribulation.And yes it will be Jesus Christ who is coming back for the Church in the Rapture.

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Shalom, Montana Marv.

Roy

I take neither as the covenant which is strengtened. In 2 Sam 7, David's Covenant Forever. v12 - I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. v13b - and I will establish the throne of his kingdom Forever. v25 - And now, Lord God, keep Forever, the promise you have made concerning your servant (David) and his house.

If the Davidic Kingdom is to be Forever as was told to Nathan by the Lord. Forever then does not need to be strengthened. I will establish the throne of his kingdom Forever. This is a very, very, very, very strong, strong, strong, strong statement. This is Absolute.

BTW, Christ will not be sitting on the Throne of David until after Christs Second Coming. This will be Forever.

I don't buy what you are trying to reveal.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Aw... be honest. You just don't UNDERSTAND what I'm trying to reveal. That's okay; I get it.

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About when the rapture will occur is not simple at all and very unclear in scripture to us all, that is until once decides for themselves what they are going to accept as the answer, then to them, it is simple.

I personally do not believe the rapture will occur before the 7 years begin. There is just too much scripture showing His church still being active after the beginning. I see this event sometime after the first 3 1/2 years to the end of the 7 years. Exactly when, I admit that I do not know. What I do know is that we need to be ready to be with Him always, for we don't know when we will die.The only time anyone will be able to say with certainty when the rapture occurred is after it occurs.

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What you think we have to suffer because the Blood did not cover enough

That sure is a negative way to look at His protection through times of trouble. You say you have studied the Mid and Post trib camps, then what is it they say about the trials and tribulation of the 7 years? How do they believe they will go through it unscathed, since they also agree that we are not meant to receive Gods wrath?

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Onelight:

That sure is a negative way to look at His protection through times of trouble. You say you have studied the Mid and Post trib camps, then what is it they say about the trials and tribulation of the 7 years? How do they believe they will go through it unscathed, since they also agree that we are not meant to receive Gods wrath?

Brother, You have already read what I said about this. There is absolutely no place your gonna hide when that first trumpet is blown. I don't see the Wrath of God as some inconvenient weather patterns on the earth. God literally wipes most of mankind from the face of the earth. Now where you plan to hang out?[ Who knows. There would be absolutely no reason for you to hang out during the Tribulation. Nobody here preaches the gospel, the church is not even mentioned from Rev 3-21. You have 144,000 that carry the testimony of Jesus, one angel the tells of the good news, but warns of the impending doom. We are not even used.

Have you noticed when the first trumpet is blown? Between the 6th and 7th seal is when the 144000 are sealed and John is shown a great multitude of people that nobody can number from the great tribulation. Scripture places the trumpets toward the very end of the tribulation. As I had stated before, I am not a pre trib believer. I believe we are taken somewhere toward the end, but if we remain through the trumpets, God will protect us.

Hide? Are you so afraid that He cannot protect His people from His wrath that you think we need to hide? Did the Hebrews hide from the plagues that came upon Egypt or were they affected by them? Did Noah have to flee from the flood or did he, out of obedience to God, find deliverance? We are his vessels to do His work here until He returns. Is He so weak that He will not protect His own during the times He brings wrath to those who reject Him? We will not feel Gods wrath nor need to hide from it..

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

His wrath is for the unrighteous.

Colossians 3:5-7

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Ephesians 5:5-7

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

We can't be under the hand of Satan. The Mark of the beast. The gates of hell don't stand against God's full anointed Church. We have delivered from the powers of darkness. Greater in us, is greater than any devil. The only thing holding back complete lawlessness is that where sin abounds, Grace abound more, and it abounds more because we are the current light on the planet. The light needs to be removed, for the Antichrist to function.

2 Thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

There is no mention of any people being taken out of the way, but that God instructs "He who now restrains" ( who I believe is the Holy Spirit) to allow the lawless one to be reveled. It is my belief that the pretrib understanding of this verse is incorrect. They take this to mean that the church is raptured then, but this is half way through the 7 years. By the way, you are moving backwards in time with your explanation.

Brother, I know you believe that somehow God just puts a bubble around 3 billion Christians, but Revelation never mentions this. It does mention who is protected and when, like those that received the seal from the angle on their forehead are protected from those flying stinging creatures. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, not angel, and not on our foreheads.

A bubble? This seems to be a habit of yours to degrade what others believe He will do when you disagree with humor. Was there a bubble around the Hebrews in Egypt or Noah? I really do not find your attempt at humor funny at all.

The locus were to to harm all those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. It seems that is going to happen at the very end of the 7 years. See above

There is a belief though by most post-trib people that they have to face some wrath of big, bad Satan. Some type of proving or testing like the Catholic purgatory. I am not saying your in that group. I am just saying that the period of Tribulation is far worse than anyone can imagine and you don't have to watch it from Earth.

I am not of this group. I refer you to my first reply.

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Well said Onelight,the only place I disagree is with the one who restrains, I think this to be the Arch Angle Michael not the Holy Spirit

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Well said Onelight,the only place I disagree is with the one who restrains, I think this to be the Arch Angle Michael not the Holy Spirit

The Greek says "THE one-DOWN-HAVING" where some do not capitalize "he" while other refer to the restrainer as "He". It really is not clear who He or he will be, but I do not believe it is the church. Neither do I believe that this is the time our ticket is punched or that the restrainer will be taken up to heaven, but just moved to allow the lawless one to be revealed.

The idea that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit derives from which bible you use. Those who follow the KJV use He, where the capitalized "H" would make the restrainer part of the Trinity. Those who use other bible versions see it otherwise. I noticed that in the Greek the word "one" is not capitalized either, so you may be correct.

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OneLight

My attempt at humor seems to fail every time when used with you. No matter though, I truly am not trying to put anyone down. I am trying to make a point, one you just won't agree with. That's fine, I don't know everything. I accept that.

I like humor when it is use to bring laughter, not when it is meant to belittle others. To me, that is not humor. What you say is not lost on me, but I see yoru words in a different light than you do. Ecclesiastics tells us there is a time for everything. Perhaps understanding when these times are would benefit all?

Hide? Are you so afraid that He cannot protect His people from His wrath that you think we need to hide? Did the Hebrews hide from the plagues that came upon Egypt or were they affected by them? Did Noah have to flee from the flood or did he, out of obedience to God, find deliverance? We are his vessels to do His work here until He returns. Is He so weak that He will not protect His own during the times He brings wrath to those who reject Him? We will not feel Gods wrath nor need to hide from it..

Ok, we both agree that we are delivered from the Wrath of God, God is more than able to protect us.

We don't have to worry about the Antichrist the greater one is in us and we have authority over him. The gates of hell won't make it. Not against the anointed Church.

We are told to resist Satan steadfast in faith, and he won't touch us. Just bring the Armor of God, keep it on, Being delivered from all powers of darkness.

I am confused by the above statement you made. We are talking about God protecting us against His wrath or judgments, not about Satan. If one refuses the mark, then they may be put to death. Revelation 20 speaks of those who are His and died instead of taking the mark. God never said He would protect us against Satan in such a manner, just that the church will not fall, for the church is His true body and belong to Him.

So I guess My next question is. Why the heck you want to hang around? The gospel is preached all over the World then the end comes. We did our job, time to go home. Let those that rejected the Gospel face the wrath of God, and what pathetic effort Satan gives.

Because of the lost. If it means that I have to live in this miserable world so one person could hear the truth of Christ and His salvation, it is worth it to me. He asked us to be His ambassadors, to do His will until He returns. He never said it was going to be a walk in the park or that we will be treated like kings. He only promised to supply what we needed, to guide us, to teach us, to change us to be more like Him. Jesus suffered more than we ever will. He set the bar to follow.

Revelation never mentions us doing anything. No Gospel of Christ, no Holy Spirit exploits, ZERO. God reserves 2 men in Rev chapter 11 to harass the Antichrist. Why are we not there throwing rocks at him or taking some shots?

Just because the focus is not on us does not mean we are not there. That is a mistake to think this way. Revelation is about Christ Jesus, not the body. He is showing us what He has planned for the world in the future, not what He has for the church. We have all the Gospels and Epistles to learn about how we are to be. Is that not enough?

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Did Noah have to flee from the flood or did he, out of obedience to God, find deliverance?

There you go. Noah. Peter compares this horrible tribulation period to the days of Noah. So does Jesus. God did deliver Noah.

God brought Noah through the times of the flood, making a way for Noah and his family to survive. God did not take Noah to heaven as will happen in the rapture. There is a difference between the two.

]Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This is how we are delivered. One take, one left. Just like the days of Noah when everyone was having a great time, knew nothing until Noah and his family entered the boat. Same with us, nobody knows a thing, where is Jesus, things continue as before, the we are taken.

You are trying to tie what it was like during the days of Noah, the sin, to how Noah was given protection. Jesus is talking about how people lived in the days of Noah and is telling us that the last days people will live just like them. That is the only comparison there is between Noah's days and the end times.

So I guess the issue is............... we disagree on when we are taken. Is there 31/2 years of some peace and then the first trumpet sounds. God gets us out of the way 3 years or so into tribulation. The first trumpet covers the earth with fire, and hail mixed with Blood.

Is this the hangup? I can't say exactly when that first trumpet sounds. Do we have 3 1/2 years before God pours out his wrath? If you think that, then I can't say your wrong, as I don't know when that trumpet sounds.

I brought in Revelation 7 where it tells us that between the 6th and the 7th seal, the 144,000 are sealed, and right after that, John is shown the following:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,

Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,

Be to our God forever and ever.

Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

It seems very clear that the Great Tribulation will be well on it's way , if not already at an end, before the first trumpet is blown.

The only other focus then would be to find scriptures to prove we get removed before the Antichrist shows up. That puts us at pre-trib and not somewhere in the middle.

I am sure you will not find anything solid about a pre-tribulation rapture. For many years after salvation, I believed in the pre-trib rapture. Then after some false prophecy on the subject, I was moved to search why what I was led to believe did not take place. This is when God opened my eyes to His truth about what I had believed. He pointed me to what I have shared with you that shows that He has not promised to catch us up before any tribulation starts. At the same time, I did not find any proof to any specific timing, just scripture telling me what to watch for. After awhile, I was able to understand more about His timing of events.

Onelight, I think you have some great points I hope others read. What you say is right, but we disagree on time. Which has always been the issue with these discussions.

Onelight:

It really is not clear who He or he will be, but I do not believe it is the church.

Angel? Glad you answered that one... The HE is Jesus, and his Body. With Jesus and his church here, where sin abounds, grace abounds more. Sin must have full course for the Antichrist to operate his lawlessness. Jesus steps out of the way, when He opens the first seal to reveal the White Horse rider.

So, let me make sure I understand you. You believe that we will be raptured before the man of sin is revealed, around the 3 /12 year mark? That is when the man of sin will be revealed for scripture stated that in the middle of the 70th week, Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

The Holy Spirit still has work to do on the earth during tribulation.

I agree!

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...Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

Amen.

'Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.'

This gives a specific time of 'seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks' and also a sign 'unto' the Messiah - this should have been clear to those who were living at the time, they observed God's times and seasons and had the date of the dedication of the second temple recorded Ezra 6:15.

'And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.'

This states that after the time period translated as 'threescore and two weeks' the covenant (Isa 42:6) would be cut, complete in its terms and that this would be marked by the sign 'the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary'. Accordingly it was the actual destruction of the second temple and the sanctuary which was the sign that the new covenant was complete, was cut, all the terms determined and confirmed.

'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.'

This is referring to the new covenant promised Jer 31:31-34. Whether it refers to the confirming of the Son by the Father or the confirming of the new covenant to the people by the Father, or the confirming of the new covenant to the people by the Son, ALL glorify God.

The word 'cause' is important, the sacrifice of the Son was the cause for the animal sacrifices and the meat offerings to be made to cease. The sacrifices and oblations continued because the people rejected their Saviour, rejected God's new covenant. The word 'for' is important, the temple was destroyed, the daily sacrifice made to cease by the Romans and an abomination placed there but this was not a permanent fixture over the Holy of Holies, this cannot be the abomination prophesied here 'overspreading' (on the west wing of) the temple since this abomination was prophesied to remain until 'that determined shall be poured upon the desolate'.

And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan 12:11-12

I believe the punctuation deceptive and consider days as years, the 'thousand two hundred and ninety days' marks an event that has happened since the abomination was set up.

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You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

I agree with you Parker a on assuming. To put it simply. One can look through and research the bible for a million years and they will never find where the word of God says "There will be seven years of tribulation". Why? Because those word are not written anywhere in the bible. The whole idea of a seven year tribulation is nothing more then the assumptions of men. One doesn't need other endtime scholars to agree that an assertion is true, one only needs the word of God.

If it is not written in the word of God then it is not.

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As far as other biblical/end times scholars that are well known, I don't know that my book has reached any of them yet. My editor says it's usually a very slow process, and even more so when you are unknown. With so many thousands of books that are being published every year, it's hard to get book stores to carry your book until there starts to be a demand for it. There are people that are excited about my book, but probably no one that you would know. I'd guess that there's only about 200 copies in circulation so far, and probably about 90% of those were bought locally, in my neck of the woods.

I have been thinking of sending a copy to some other end times scholars, because so far, I've noticed the ones that do get excited about it are the ones who have some knowledge about the end times. The book is very challenging and thought provoking, no matter what rapture theory you happen to believe in. It will make you want to question why you believe what you believe. Do you have any suggestions of which scholars I should send a copy to?

Sending a book to other end time theologists is one way of getting an idea, yet I have not even thought about this at all, so I can not offer any names. I was just wondering if you knew of any end time teachers who have the same theories you have, or close to it. It almost sounds like you have something completely new.

Pat Robertson on the 700 club does.

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I believe in a Seven Year Tribulation.I guess we will have to agree to disagree.I know who knows how it will all fall in place.We will just have to wait and see.

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Yeah, leave it to scholars to run the church...great job so far ;) I'll trust the One Who leads us into all truth and His anointing (1John 2). The very fact that Scripture is being interpreted so many ways only proves that you need the Spirit's insight - especially when it comes to these kind of passages that are not plain.

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(Pay attention, Brother Mike; here's some humor you can use.)

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

Well said Onelight,the only place I disagree is with the one who restrains, I think this to be the Arch Angle Michael not the Holy Spirit

Forgive the levity, but is the Arch Angle Michael the "Great Right Angle?"

(Sorry, ENOCH2010, but I just couldn't resist a great misspelling!)

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:help: I have an excuse Roy,I'm a hillbilly :calicon17:

:24:

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Actually I did not read the whole op, or any of the dialogue in between, but I think if you look to Daniel, as Jesus said to do in Matt 24, you will see the 70th seven there, the 7 years in question. But I would not refer to it as a 7 year, or the seven year tribulation, though at one time, i might have.

If you read what Jesus said in Matt 24, you will see that the period is not the tribulation. Tribulation is something that these 7 years possibly contain within them (v9), and that great tribulation, is definetly contained in the second half of the seven years (v21).

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