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Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

To answer the OP question, both.

However, I Wanted to reply to this post, because I am somewhat like 'some beleivers' you have talked with. I would rather go through the tribulation than be raptured out ahead of time, but there is a condition to that desire: That it be according to God's will. Our savior is our example, submit to the will of God, even if it is unpleasant for a while.

1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Oh to be able to do just that. I do not love pain of discomfort, but I also am not looking at this through fleshy eyes. I understand that nothing that can befall me in this life is worth worrying over:

16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

I do not see suffering for Jesus to be something to avoided at all costs, I consider it a privelege. Why would I think, that I should be excluded, even from suffering and or death, where so many prophets, apostles, and marthys in the last 2000 years up to this present day, have led the way, to the glory of God?

Those of us who hope to escape unscathed, are those who have their eyes fixed on comfort in this present age, instead of taking Jesus words to heart:

10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Maybe we just want to refuse the extra blessings our Father wants to pour out on His children. I do not need to prove myself to God, He know what I am, and what I am not. I am however, willing to be spent for Him.

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Which is the greater act of worship? Singing a hymm in church, or presenting my body as living sacrifice. Of course, a living sacrifice means to live your life sacrifically for Him, which I think is probably harder that to die for Him. I can think of no greater way to end ones life than to have it be an act of worship:

13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Those who are Jesus friends, are willing to die for Him, and we are called to that attitude.

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Over and over in the New Testament, we are told to expect trouble, and to persevere in trouble. Are those just words? Or do they actually mean something? Aslo we are told that perseverance in tribulation improves the church, why would I not welcome improvement in the church? What benefit is there in escapism? Nothing that I know of, that is not worldy, temporal.

So, speaking for myself, if God wants me to suffer, I volunteer. People in the tribulation will need help, will need the Gospel. I received that gift freely from God, with nothing on my part to deserve it. I can never pay God back for that, but I can offer to be there for those in the tribulation, that God loves just as much as He loves me.

I only wish that I would carry that conviction in everyday life. Every person I fail to tell the gospel to, is another person I have shown contempt for, by not thinking them worthy enough for me to disturb my personal comfort in the hope of saving them from an eternity of suffering. I too, amd fleshly, and I know that in me, I am not obedient enough to do well in the tribulation. If I were to find myself in it, I pray for God's grace to enable me to stand for what I beleive, to stand for Him.

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

To answer the OP question, both.

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

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If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

Hey Rollin,

I know you didn't ask me, but since Oman and I hold a similar position, and my answer to the OP is also both, I thought I would respond.

The marriage supper is an event that takes place in the spiritual realm, so I don't see it being bound by time as we know it, Gods time is not our time. What may seem like hours in the spiritual realm could easily be an instant in earthly time.

There is plenty of time for saints to be martyred as the signs Jesus gave for His coming appear after the sixth seal is broken (Rev. 6:12-14), and the announcement made following the sixth bowl (Rev. 16:15). This is very near the end of the tribulation, martyrs will be killed from the mid point at the very least.

I think the key to the parable of the sheep and the goats is found at the very beginning and at the conclusion.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory."

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The dead are not judged until after satan is defeated, after the millennial kingdom. This parable points to that time, as not everyone from the millennial kingdom will be followers of Christ.

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If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

Hey Rollin,

I know you didn't ask me, but since Oman and I hold a similar position, and my answer to the OP is also both, I thought I would respond.

Hello wingnut,

Very well, then. One post-tribber is just as good as another, I suppose. :mgcheerful:

Well, we both agree that the gathering of the elect in verse 31 is the rapture, so it's good to see we have some common ground in our views. So the issue here is the second coming.

The marriage supper is an event that takes place in the spiritual realm, so I don't see it being bound by time as we know it, Gods time is not our time. What may seem like hours in the spiritual realm could easily be an instant in earthly time.

I don't see any way that we can know how long the wedding supper will last, so I won't even entertain that thought. But just as you see both, the (rapture and second coming), I see it as both, the (rapture and marriage supper of the Lamb).

There is plenty of time for saints to be martyred as the signs Jesus gave for His coming appear after the sixth seal is broken (Rev. 6:12-14), and the announcement made following the sixth bowl (Rev. 16:15). This is very near the end of the tribulation, martyrs will be killed from the mid point at the very least.

I believe that Jesus laid it all out so beautifully and completely, that we don't even need to go outside of Matthew 24 to find the answer about the tribulation. I see where many get confused between the tribulation and God's wrath, so I think going into the book of Revelation here will only bring more questions. Therefore, since we already agree about the rapture, it should be noted that Christ said in verse 29 that it would occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. He also said in verse 22 that those days would be shortened for the sake of the elect.

Most rapture theories have the church being raptured at some point or another. But the Lord has given me a new theory that is not yet as well known, but I believe it is revolutionary nonetheless. Almost everyone knows there will be martyrs, but have you ever noticed that many believe the church will escape the hour of trial that will come upon all who dwell upon the earth, while most of the others believe they will be divinely protected until the second coming? This has been debated for as long as I can remember. However, in my theory, both of these come into play, along with the martyrs. But to properly understand it, it's important to understand the three different parts to a biblical harvest, while also realizing that there are three different rewards for believers works (precious stones/gold and silver/wood, hay and stubble).

Anyway, Jesus warned us in His parables that his servants must be ready. It's easy to see that some won't be, yet we are continuously taught that Christ will someday rapture His church, as if every believer will be ready when He appears. But the bride or church is not complete when the rapture occurs. We know this because the martyrs will also join them at the very end of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4), and they will be returning with Christ as well. God will not avenge their blood until all of the martyrs have been killed, so the bride is not ready until late (Rev. 19). I happen to believe that those who are ready will be raptured and will be attending the marriage supper, while those servants who are not ready will be left and will become martyrs (two in the field, one is taken, the other is left.....). Anyway, that's a long story, but while those who are ready are reclining at the wedding supper, those that were left will become the saints that will be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8).

There will also be men who will want to die, but death will flee from them. We are told in scripture that many will depart from the faith or fall away and I believe these are the ones that will want to die. I believe these are the sheep that will be here to see the second coming. All of their works are burned up, they are no longer saints that will return to reign with Christ, but God will still protect them. They are still counted among the righteous, not because of their works, but by the precious blood of Christ alone. And since God can not lie, and promises to save everyone who believes on His Son, He must honor His word. He can not allow these to die after the martyrs, because the first resurrection is already completed, and the second resurrection is for unbelievers, so He must keep these men alive through His wrath, and they will be the ones to re-populate the earth, along with the one-third remnant of Jews that will also be protected. I believe these are the sheep. Although they are not members of the Church anymore, they still belong to Christ and Satan will not be able to pluck them from His hand.

I think the key to the parable of the sheep and the goats is found at the very beginning and at the conclusion.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory."

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The dead are not judged until after satan is defeated, after the millennial kingdom. This parable points to that time, as not everyone from the millennial kingdom will be followers of Christ.

I don't see where He is resurrecting the dead here, as in the great white throne judgment that will take place after the millennium. He's gathering the nations, those who are alive during His second coming (Joel 3:2). They will gather to fight against Israel, but will then turn against Christ. These and everyone that takes the mark of the beast will be killed and will await the second resurrection (great white throne). The sheep on the other hand, will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom because at some point, they were a blessing to the least of Christ' brothers (martyrs). Of course, I realize this is just a parable so we shouldn't take every detail literal, so it may be that the sheep were church members at one time or at least believers, but we can be certain that they did not take the mark.

Most of Matthew 24 and the parables in chapter 25 were given as an answer to His disciples question in 24:3, about the signs of His coming and the end of this age. At this point, the disciples had no knowledge of the 1000 year reign or the second resurrection and great white throne judgment. This knowledge didn't come until years later, after John penned the Revelation of Christ on the Isle of Patmos near the end of the 1st century. I believe the other disciples were already dead by that time, but John escaped.

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Hello wingnut,

Very well, then. One post-tribber is just as good as another, I suppose. :mgcheerful:

Well, we both agree that the gathering of the elect in verse 31 is the rapture, so it's good to see we have some common ground in our views. So the issue here is the second coming.

Technically my position isn't post-trib, the way I see the sequence is more in line with pre-wrath, although I personally don't care for the chosen title. One of the things I find interesting about these events is the wording involved, which seems like a small technicality but as a writer I find the choice of words to be telling. What I'm referring to is the phrase, "Second Coming", this implies during the return to me, not the arrival. We know that the world will see this happen, what we don't know is how much time passes before He actually arrives on the mount of olives.

I don't see any way that we can know how long the wedding supper will last, so I won't even entertain that thought. But just as you see both, the (rapture and second coming), I see it as both, the (rapture and marriage supper of the Lamb).

I agree with you about the time, and I didn't mean to imply any known amount of time this will take, because I see this as a spiritual event and therefore not necessarily bound by time as we know it. I think in actuality we see the rapture and marriage supper in the same manner, and just expressed it with different words.

I believe that Jesus laid it all out so beautifully and completely, that we don't even need to go outside of Matthew 24 to find the answer about the tribulation. I see where many get confused between the tribulation and God's wrath, so I think going into the book of Revelation here will only bring more questions. Therefore, since we already agree about the rapture, it should be noted that Christ said in verse 29 that it would occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. He also said in verse 22 that those days would be shortened for the sake of the elect.

I also agree with you here, Matthew 24 gives the clearest chronological timeline of events. Revelation is not presented in this fashion, but I think when we compare what we see there we can place certain events in sequence using Matthew 24 as a reference. Such as Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 25:29 as examples which are also included in Revelation.

Most rapture theories have the church being raptured at some point or another. But the Lord has given me a new theory that is not yet as well known, but I believe it is revolutionary nonetheless. Almost everyone knows there will be martyrs, but have you ever noticed that many believe the church will escape the hour of trial that will come upon all who dwell upon the earth, while most of the others believe they will be divinely protected until the second coming? This has been debated for as long as I can remember. However, in my theory, both of these come into play, along with the martyrs. But to properly understand it, it's important to understand the three different parts to a biblical harvest, while also realizing that there are three different rewards for believers works (precious stones/gold and silver/wood, hay and stubble).

Yes I've noticed the many rapture theories, for the majority of my life I held a pre-trib position, it's only within the last few years I realized it didn't align with scripture. I'm glad you mentioned the three parts of the biblical harvest, this factors in to my understanding of the parables in Matthew 25. Three parables, with the same emphasis, yet they contain subtle differences which I believe allude to the three harvests, also placed in chronological order.

Anyway, Jesus warned us in His parables that his servants must be ready. It's easy to see that some won't be, yet we are continuously taught that Christ will someday rapture His church, as if every believer will be ready when He appears. But the bride or church is not complete when the rapture occurs. We know this because the martyrs will also join them at the very end of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4), and they will be returning with Christ as well. God will not avenge their blood until all of the martyrs have been killed, so the bride is not ready until late (Rev. 19). I happen to believe that those who are ready will be raptured and will be attending the marriage supper, while those servants who are not ready will be left and will become martyrs (two in the field, one is taken, the other is left.....). Anyway, that's a long story, but while those who are ready are reclining at the wedding supper, those that were left will become the saints that will be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8).

There will also be men who will want to die, but death will flee from them. We are told in scripture that many will depart from the faith or fall away and I believe these are the ones that will want to die. I believe these are the sheep that will be here to see the second coming. All of their works are burned up, they are no longer saints that will return to reign with Christ, but God will still protect them. They are still counted among the righteous, not because of their works, but by the precious blood of Christ alone. And since God can not lie, and promises to save everyone who believes on His Son, He must honor His word. He can not allow these to die after the martyrs, because the first resurrection is already completed, and the second resurrection is for unbelievers, so He must keep these men alive through His wrath, and they will be the ones to re-populate the earth, along with the one-third remnant of Jews that will also be protected. I believe these are the sheep. Although they are not members of the Church anymore, they still belong to Christ and Satan will not be able to pluck them from His hand.

You present an interesting and thought provoking possibility. From what I gather it appears you see a long span of time from when the second coming begins and when Jesus actually sets down on the mount of olives? I don't disagree with the thinking on this necessarily, personally I see it as a process as well, in other words, not happening quickly.

I don't see where He is resurrecting the dead here, as in the great white throne judgment that will take place after the millennium. He's gathering the nations, those who are alive during His second coming (Joel 3:2). They will gather to fight against Israel, but will then turn against Christ. These and everyone that takes the mark of the beast will be killed and will await the second resurrection (great white throne). The sheep on the other hand, will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom because at some point, they were a blessing to the least of Christ' brothers (martyrs). Of course, I realize this is just a parable so we shouldn't take every detail literal, so it may be that the sheep were church members at one time or at least believers, but we can be certain that they did not take the mark.

Most of Matthew 24 and the parables in chapter 25 were given as an answer to His disciples question in 24:3, about the signs of His coming and the end of this age. At this point, the disciples had no knowledge of the 1000 year reign or the second resurrection and great white throne judgment. This knowledge didn't come until years later, after John penned the Revelation of Christ on the Isle of Patmos near the end of the 1st century. I believe the other disciples were already dead by that time, but John escaped.

I think in many ways we are in agreement, which is why I enjoy these types of discussions. The differences I see we have are very subtle, and may be in how we see the three harvests, and more specifically, how we see the parables in Matthew 25. The day is getting away from me, and I want to think over what you had to say a bit more. In the meantime I want to illustrate my thoughts on the parables and possibly clarify where I'm coming from. This will just be a quick version and I'm only going to touch on what I see as the key points and how I understand them, I look forward to any thoughts others have.

The parable of the ten virgins, or as I see it, the first harvest. To me this points to the rapture of the church, my reasoning is found in these key verses, starting with how the parable concludes.

Matthew 25:13 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 24:42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come."

The verses prior to Matthew 24:42 and those that follow indicate this parable applies to the rapture by my understanding.

The parable of the talents, or as I see it, the second harvest. This one is a bit more tricky, but I see it as a follow up to the parable of the ten virgins, and the servants with the talents representing the unwise virgins. They had another opportunity to take the knowledge they originally had and invest it during the last days of the tribulation. We see that some do this, and some do not. The latter is described as a wicked and lazy servant (Matthew 25:26), instead of letting their light shine, they hid it. Whatever amount of belief they had was not enough to pick up their cross and follow Him, and so He will allow them to give into their wickedness.

Matthew 25:28 "Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This passage indicates these individuals have no more time to change, they are being discarded into darkness and will not get any more opportunities. The reference to weeping and gnashing of teeth means physical death, or hell, not to be confused with the second death also known as the lake of fire. It places this harvest after the rapture, but not yet at the end of the age.

The sheep and the goats, or the third harvest. This parable points to the end of the age, the conclusion. I alluded to this in my previous post, and believe the keys are found at the beginning and the end.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on the throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Was our inheritance this earth or the millennial kingdom? According to scripture, no.

Revelation 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him that is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

It's also notable that in the parable Jesus is placed on the throne, but the other key is the conclusion of the parable.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This verse points to the end of the age, and the ushering in of New Jerusalem. Eternal punishment is the second death, the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation 20:14

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

To answer the OP question, both.

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

e

Sorry Rolling, I have been avoiding these topics a bit lately, they tend to require such a lot of energy and time. I see the wingnut somewhat responded in my stead, and I am thinkful for that, though as he said we have similar, not identical thinking one these matters.

First, let me admit that even after 30 years of investigating these things, I am not yey convinced that my opinions are fully formed. I think though that it is safe to say that I am pretty certain that there is no pre-trib rapture. Additionally, I admit to being relatively ignorant about many of the things in Revelation, preferring mostly to get my timelines that are more clearly literal and chronological in order. I have never even settle in on a sequence of the seals,, bowls and scolls etc.

For me so far, Revelation is full of unknowns, sybolism and complicated, non sequential timelines are not easy for me to understand. Additionally, I think we need to be ready and aware of everything up until the second coming, after that I think everyone who beleives in a literal catching up to be with jesus, probably agrees that the rest will sort itself out and understanding these things (after the gathering of the elect), is not as critical as understanding the things up until that point. All of this is to say that there are many things you can ask me about what happens after that gathering, that I might not be settled on or able to answer intelligently or with confidence. Now, with those discalaimers aside . . .

First thing I thugh of when I read your questions, was along the same thing that wingnut mentioned, that it is hard to say how much time the wedding supper takes, if it even takes any time at all, things in the realm of the spirit might easily be outside of time altogher. However, even though I believe this is true, I also beleive this can be dealt with even assumming literal time.

Although you sis not say so, I think that much of the problem with timeing here, comes from assumptions we tend to make about the event. For example, many assume that the wedding supper takes place in Heaven during the tribullation. It is easy to understand why that assumption is made, but it is an assumption never-the-less. A literal wedding supper among Jews in those days, took what, a few days? I see no reason to assume that one between Jesus and His bride need take that long or any longer, so certainly nothing like a sever year period is required, so nothing then argues there for a pre-trib rapture - not that I know that that is even your position. You said there does not appeazr to be enough time, well, to you, exactly how much time will that even take?

I don't think that the bible ever actually says that the marriage or the supper take place during the tribulation nor does it even indicate where the wedding takes place, does it?

Looking at Rev 19:7 though:

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

hoti ēlthen ho gamos tou arniou kai gynē autou

"has come" , ēlthen , is aorist indicative active, which might indicate that the marriage is starting soon, not that is has passed. This is also hinted at in the fact that we see the bride is now ready, i.e. still waiting for the event?

Not to read too much into this, or at least no more that others do with differing opinions, let looks also at verse 9:

9Then he said to me, "Write, Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" Speaking of guests who are invited, also sounds as though there is a wedding to take place, not one which has.

So, if it is possible to understand that the guests and the bride are ready for the wedding, and with the next chronicled event in Revelation being the coming, is it really unrealistic to suppose that perhaps the marriage and supper takes place at or after the second coming, and not force it before that?

It is extremly easy to suppose details that are not specified, and import them into the text and then draw conclusions that are not necessarily called for. I think this is especially so in the book of Revelation, which is probably why I am a bit gunshy about it, I actually beleive that for me, if I cannot prove a concept in Revelation without backup from other clearer books of the bible, that my accuracy level might not even reach 50%. Since I immodesltly believe myself to be of at least average intelligence, and at least moderately well read in the bible, and have a grasp of sound, exegetical methodologies as well as assuming no one has a monopoly on the indwelling Holy Spirit, I tend to me as suppicious of other people's theories as I am of my own. When I hear someone say the they got their understanding directly from God (not meaning anyone in particular) here, I am doubly suspicious, lol.

Now, if my suspicions are correct about the marriage supper being after the trib, then of course there is 7 years ( or more specifically 3.5 years) for martyrs to refuse the mark and be killed.

As far as the sheep and goats at the end of Matt 25, I am sorry, I am not seeing the problem, Can you explain the issue in detail?

Again, I apologize for the delay, nice to interact with you again rollingthunder. I know you have written a lot in the forum on these things, and you have a good spirit when you do, I appreciate that. I have noticed you mentioning your book frequently, but to tell you the truth, I still don't have a read on exactly what your position is.

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I should mention maybe, regarding RTs comment that he supposes one post-tribber is as good as another, a comment that made me chuckle,, that there are variations of posties. Some are dispensational posties, I am not one of those, I more along the lines of the historic premillenial camp generally.

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

To answer the OP question, both.

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

Sorry Rolling, I have been avoiding these topics a bit lately, they tend to require such a lot of energy and time. I see the wingnut somewhat responded in my stead, and I am thinkful for that, though as he said we have similar, not identical thinking one these matters.

There he is, just when I thought you were avoiding me. :biggrin2:

Greetings Omegaman. It's okay to be fashionably late sometimes. I agree that some of these topics are very time consuming, especially when we are dealing with long posts, so maybe we should all try to keep them as short as possible.

First, let me admit that even after 30 years of investigating these things, I am not yey convinced that my opinions are fully formed. I think though that it is safe to say that I am pretty certain that there is no pre-trib rapture. Additionally, I admit to being relatively ignorant about many of the things in Revelation, preferring mostly to get my timelines that are more clearly literal and chronological in order. I have never even settle in on a sequence of the seals,, bowls and scolls etc.

I agree with you on the pre-trib bit. I kinda feel ashamed of myself for taking so long to make that discovery myself. I actually went along with it for about 15 years. Then I finally started seeing where things weren't adding up, which got me investigating these things a lot more closely. There are so many assumptions and misconceptions in this field. No wonder Jesus warned us not to let anyone deceive us, or let anyone steal our crown.

For me so far, Revelation is full of unknowns, sybolism and complicated, non sequential timelines are not easy for me to understand. Additionally, I think we need to be ready and aware of everything up until the second coming, after that I think everyone who beleives in a literal catching up to be with jesus, probably agrees that the rest will sort itself out and understanding these things (after the gathering of the elect), is not as critical as understanding the things up until that point. All of this is to say that there are many things you can ask me about what happens after that gathering, that I might not be settled on or able to answer intelligently or with confidence. Now, with those discalaimers aside . . .

You're not alone, my friend. I don't know of anyone that has a good understanding of the entire book of Revelation, even though some will claim they do. I know it's not in chronological order. There are things in it that I may never understand, yet there are other parts where I can glean from and get a pretty good foothold sometimes. I believe it's a book that we will understand more when the time comes for the Holy Spirit to reveal more truth and give more insight to those who are called for that specific purpose.

First thing I thugh of when I read your questions, was along the same thing that wingnut mentioned, that it is hard to say how much time the wedding supper takes, if it even takes any time at all, things in the realm of the spirit might easily be outside of time altogher. However, even though I believe this is true, I also beleive this can be dealt with even assumming literal time.

I was just trying to get a clearer understanding of what you meant by both (rapture & second coming). Some talk about a yo-yo theory, where they go up in the rapture, only to come back down immediately with the Lord. I'm not saying that you are one that believes that, though, which is why I was asking. It's hard to get a read on one word answers.

Although you sis not say so, I think that much of the problem with timeing here, comes from assumptions we tend to make about the event. For example, many assume that the wedding supper takes place in Heaven during the tribullation. It is easy to understand why that assumption is made, but it is an assumption never-the-less. A literal wedding supper among Jews in those days, took what, a few days? I see no reason to assume that one between Jesus and His bride need take that long or any longer, so certainly nothing like a sever year period is required, so nothing then argues there for a pre-trib rapture - not that I know that that is even your position. You said there does not appeazr to be enough time, well, to you, exactly how much time will that even take?

The gathering of the elect takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), which will be cut short for the sake of the elect (Matt.24:22). I agree that a rapture prior to Daniels 70th week is not required, and does not even fit how God usually does things, which reminds me of that old saying: God is never early, but He's never late. Of course that really doesn't prove anything, but the scriptures are clearly laid out and lack nothing. Matthew 24 & 25 give us a clear blueprint of all of the details.

I don't think that the bible ever actually says that the marriage or the supper take place during the tribulation nor does it even indicate where the wedding takes place, does it?

I believe scripture is very clear that it is after the tribulation, but we need to be careful of this word as well, because modern scholars have created for themselves a so-called seven year tribulation, where they have essentially replaced Daniel's 70th week and want us to believe the two are one and the same. However, the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, but Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, unless Daniel was a false prophet, which is not even remotely possible.

No, scripture does not provide an exact location of the marriage supper, but there is enough evidence to know that it's either in the second heaven (clouds) or in the third heaven, where God's throne is. However, only those who are ready when He appears will be attending, as Christ said that He will give them (meat in due season), which is a clue about the wedding supper/rapture (Matt.24:44-45). Then it is made very clear in Luke.

Luke 12:36-37

Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;

[36] And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

[37] Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

[38] And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

[39] And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

[40] Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

[41] Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

[42] And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

[43] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

[44] Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

[45] But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

[46] The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

[47] And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This parable above is very telling!!!

It's time to call it a night. More tomorrow, Lord willing.

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I believe scripture is very clear that it is after the tribulation, but we need to be careful of this word as well, because modern scholars have created for themselves a so-called seven year tribulation, where they have essentially replaced Daniel's 70th week and want us to believe the two are one and the same. However, the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, but Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, unless Daniel was a false prophet, which is not even remotely possible.

It certainly isn't shortened, if anything it's lengthened.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

It's obvious that the great tribulation is shortened based on what Jesus says in Matthew 24, which has been covered here. The 1290 vs. 1335 day period in the second half of the 70th week has had me pondering for a bit.

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I believe scripture is very clear that it is after the tribulation, but we need to be careful of this word as well, because modern scholars have created for themselves a so-called seven year tribulation, where they have essentially replaced Daniel's 70th week and want us to believe the two are one and the same. However, the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, but Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, unless Daniel was a false prophet, which is not even remotely possible.

It certainly isn't shortened, if anything it's lengthened.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

It's obvious that the great tribulation is shortened based on what Jesus says in Matthew 24, which has been covered here. The 1290 vs. 1335 day period in the second half of the 70th week has had me pondering for a bit.

But there is "tribulation for the full seven years (70th week of Daniel). The tribulation for the "tribulation saints', first half. And tribulation for the nation of Israel during the second half. Then there is tribulation upon the whole world during the second half in which the S, T, and B Judgments occur.

Steve

Think of the extra 30 days as the length of the Battle of Armageddon, and the extra 45 days for the time it takes for the birds of the air to eat the flesh of men and horses at Armageddon.

The 70 weeks cannot be shortened (It is Prophecy) But the days are shortened in Rev 8:12. Say a 12 hour day is shortened to an 8 hour day. 1/3 less light.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Looking at Rev 19:7 though:

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

hoti ēlthen ho gamos tou arniou kai gynē autou

"has come" , ēlthen , is aorist indicative active, which might indicate that the marriage is starting soon, not that is has passed. This is also hinted at in the fact that we see the bride is now ready, i.e. still waiting for the event?

Not to read too much into this, or at least no more that others do with differing opinions, let looks also at verse 9:

9Then he said to me, "Write, Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" Speaking of guests who are invited, also sounds as though there is a wedding to take place, not one which has.

Continuing on..... If you take this verse alone, one could assume that the entire church was ready, but this is only the half of it. Remember, Jesus was warning His servants to be ready, and we know that the slothful or lazy servant was not ready, and was left in the field.... So what is to become of those that were left? Now lets take a look at the other half.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

There are two ways to enter into the kingdom of heaven for those that are alive when He comes, and only two ways (rapture/martyr). We have to be ready if we are going to the marriage supper....one is taken, the other left....five were wise, five were foolish. Revelation is not in chronological order, but Matthew 24 is.

So, if it is possible to understand that the guests and the bride are ready for the wedding, and with the next chronicled event in Revelation being the coming, is it really unrealistic to suppose that perhaps the marriage and supper takes place at or after the second coming, and not force it before that?

It is extremly easy to suppose details that are not specified, and import them into the text and then draw conclusions that are not necessarily called for. I think this is especially so in the book of Revelation, which is probably why I am a bit gunshy about it, I actually beleive that for me, if I cannot prove a concept in Revelation without backup from other clearer books of the bible, that my accuracy level might not even reach 50%. Since I immodesltly believe myself to be of at least average intelligence, and at least moderately well read in the bible, and have a grasp of sound, exegetical methodologies as well as assuming no one has a monopoly on the indwelling Holy Spirit, I tend to me as suppicious of other people's theories as I am of my own. When I hear someone say the they got their understanding directly from God (not meaning anyone in particular) here, I am doubly suspicious, lol.

Now, if my suspicions are correct about the marriage supper being after the trib, then of course there is 7 years ( or more specifically 3.5 years) for martyrs to refuse the mark and be killed.

You lost me here. I'm not sure what you mean.

As far as the sheep and goats at the end of Matt 25, I am sorry, I am not seeing the problem, Can you explain the issue in detail?

No problem, I was just curious to see what your thoughts were. You may disregard this if you like, because I'm not sure we have a good enough understanding of each others view to discuss this yet.
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I believe scripture is very clear that it is after the tribulation, but we need to be careful of this word as well, because modern scholars have created for themselves a so-called seven year tribulation, where they have essentially replaced Daniel's 70th week and want us to believe the two are one and the same. However, the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, but Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, unless Daniel was a false prophet, which is not even remotely possible.

It certainly isn't shortened, if anything it's lengthened.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

It's obvious that the great tribulation is shortened based on what Jesus says in Matthew 24, which has been covered here. The 1290 vs. 1335 day period in the second half of the 70th week has had me pondering for a bit.

But there is "tribulation for the full seven years (70th week of Daniel). The tribulation for the "tribulation saints', first half. And tribulation for the nation of Israel during the second half. Then there is tribulation upon the whole world during the second half in which the S, T, and B Judgments occur.

Steve

Think of the extra 30 days as the length of the Battle of Armageddon, and the extra 45 days for the time it takes for the birds of the air to eat the flesh of men and horses at Armageddon.

The 70 weeks cannot be shortened (It is Prophecy) But the days are shortened in Rev 8:12. Say a 12 hour day is shortened to an 8 hour day. 1/3 less light.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good luck trying to prove that, Marv. There is only one tribulation mentioned inside of Daniel's 70th week, and it occurs after the abomination of desolation, also known as the great tribulation. The tribulation saints are merely those believers living at the time of the end (the final generation that will be here to witness these things)....one will be taken, the other left......five were wise, five were foolish.

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Thunder

So you would not consider not being able to buy or sell, because of not receiving the Mark of the Beast, as a trial or tribulation. For this is pre A/D. Being sent into captivity must not be a trial or tribulation for individuals. Starvation is an easy going word. Great distress is discribed in Matt 24:21. This occurs after the A/D is set up, as you say. Trials and tribulations are an ongoing event for Christians and even some non Christians. It has been so since Stephen was killed. And even before that. For that is how we are tested.

We shine or we fade.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to test those who live on the earth. This was written to a first century church, yet it has implications in churchs today, as do the other letters.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Thunder

So you would not consider not being able to buy or sell, because of not receiving the Mark of the Beast, as a trial or tribulation. For this is pre A/D. Being sent into captivity must not be a trial or tribulation for individuals. Starvation is an easy going word.

Yes these are trials for individuals, but they don't happen before the abomination of desolation, nor is it what Christ meant by great tribulation.

There are two applications for the word tribulation in the Bible. The first application speaks of the troubles, persecution and/or trials we go through in life as individuals. These trials and tribulations have existed since the first advent at least. The second application is used when we are discussing the end-times or Bible prophecy, which speaks of distress in the world between nations, such as battles and war. It was Christ, Himself, that first coined the term tribulation, in relation to the endtimes.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Now take a close look at the first verse in the passage above. A great tribulation, unknown since the beginning of the world up to that time, and never shall it be equalled again. In other words, a future great distress or major crisis will develop in the world that has never been seen before in the history of man. It will be much worse than World War I, World War II, the world-wide war on terror and probably far worse than all of the other wars in the world combined. Can you imagine a world crisis in the future that would be far worse than the holocaust under Hitler, when over 13 million people were brutally murdered? The war in the great tribulation will be unbelievable, not millions or even billions, but trillions will be killed. Christ will have to intervene and shorten the days, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Now let's compare Christ' prophecy with Daniel's:

Daniel called it a time of trouble. Christ called it a great tribulation, but there is no mistaking that they were both clearly describing the same endtime event. I’ll post both verses below, so we can compare the two.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

There's no doubt they are both describing the very same event. As an interesting side note, Daniel's next verse shows the resurrection of the dead following the time of trouble (tribulation), where Christ goes on to describe the angels gathering His elect from among the living. This is the first mystery I solved in my book, and when you add these together, it fits perfectly with what Paul said about this mystery, the dead rise first, then those who are alive.... This is actually the increase of knowledge that Daniel was not permitted to know when he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end... Daniel 12 has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, even though most modern scholars believe and teach otherwise.

Zechariah 12:3

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations.

Joel 3:2

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, [2] I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

As you can see, the nations are on trial here, not individuals, in the great tribulation that no nation has ever seen before. We already have a Middle East Crisis, but it's going to get a hundred times worse.

Great distress is discribed in Matt 24:21. This occurs after the A/D is set up, as you say. Trials and tribulations are an ongoing event for Christians and even some non Christians. It has been so since Stephen was killed. And even before that. For that is how we are tested.

We shine or we fade.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to test those who live on the earth. This was written to a first century church, yet it has implications in churchs today, as do the other letters.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes, I agree here. These are trials that individuals will go through, but I don't understand how you are placing it before the AoD.

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The Second Coming.

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Just for clarification RT, so far, I do subscribe to the "yoyo theory" lol. Of course, the yoyo is upside down. Either way, it is a yoyo theory, unless everyone is stuck in the air. The question is: "Is Jesus the yoyo, right side up, or is the church the yoyo upside down?"

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Thunder

Your qoute:

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Now take a close look at the first verse in the passage above. A great tribulation, unknown since the beginning of the world up to that time, and never shall it be equalled again. In other words, a future great distress or major crisis will develop in the world that has never been seen before in the history of man. It will be much worse than World War I, World War II, the world-wide war on terror and probably far worse than all of the other wars in the world combined. Can you imagine a world crisis in the future that would be far worse than the holocaust under Hitler, when over 13 million people were brutally murdered? The war in the great tribulation will be unbelievable, not millions or even billions, but trillions will be killed. Christ will have to intervene and shorten the days, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Now let's compare Christ' prophecy with Daniel's:

Daniel called it a time of trouble. Christ called it a great tribulation, but there is no mistaking that they were both clearly describing the same endtime event. I’ll post both verses below, so we can compare the two.

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

There's no doubt they are both describing the very same event. As an interesting side note, Daniel's next verse shows the resurrection of the dead following the time of trouble (tribulation), where Christ goes on to describe the angels gathering His elect from among the living. This is the first mystery I solved in my book, and when you add these together, it fits perfectly with what Paul said about this mystery, the dead rise first, then those who are alive.... This is actually the increase of knowledge that Daniel was not permitted to know when he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end... Daniel 12 has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, even though most modern scholars believe and teach otherwise.

I also believe that this time of distress discribed in Matt 24 and Dan 12 and the same. But Dan 12 is all about Israel and no one else. So the discription of the multitudes who sleep in the dust who awake, some go into everlasting life, others into everlasting contempt. in Dan 12 2 are referring to Daniels people. So one cannot tie this verse to what Paul says in 1 Thes 4. about the dead in Christ rising first. Two seperate and different events. 1 Thes 4 never mentions of any going into everlasting comtempt. But it can be tied to Christ having his elect (in hevean above and on earth below) gathered at His Second Coming. So no mystery has been solved.

Another qoute:

Zechariah 12:3

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations.

Joel 3:2

In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, [2] I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

As you can see, the nations are on trial here, not individuals, in the great tribulation that no nation has ever seen before. We already have a Middle East Crisis, but it's going to get a hundred times worse.

Joel is not referring to a trial during the last 42 months, but at the onset of the 1000 years. At that time when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, v2. I will gather the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. This has nothing to do with the 70 week of Daniel, but after the Second Coming once Israels fortunes are restored..

In Christ

Montana Marv

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I also believe that this time of distress discribed in Matt 24 and Dan 12 and the same.

Both occur after the AoD, same tribulation, same time, and the same resurrection. The only real difference is that Daniel was told about the resurrection of the dead (whoever's name was written in the book), while Christ told about the rapture of those who were living and ready when He appears.

Another interesting note: New Testament has the book of life. Old Testament has the book of the living, probably the same book (righteous).

But Dan 12 is all about Israel and no one else.

That's what I was always told as well, that the resurrection in Dan. 12 and the gathering of the elect in Matt.24 had nothing to do with the resurrection/rapture. But this is why I spent the first two chapters in my book untangling assumptions and misconceptions and disproving what modern scholars have been teaching. I don't just make wild claims, for everything is backed with scripture. Probably one-third of my book is quoted scripture. One thing that must be realized here is that there is not a separate resurrection for Israel and then another for the church. Both will be joined together in the kingdom of heaven. There is one resurrection for the righteous and one resurrection for the unrighteous or disobedient (just and unjust). They are 1000 years apart, but Daniel had no way of knowing this then.

So the discription of the multitudes who sleep in the dust who awake, some go into everlasting life, others into everlasting contempt. in Dan 12 2 are referring to Daniels people.

Don't forget, it's very important to remember that we gentiles are grafted into the same olive tree (Israel). Those who awake to the everlasting life will go in the first resurrection with the just or righteous. The un-righteous must wait 1000 years, but at that time, Daniel had no way of knowing this. Daniel was given some very telling information, but he could not understand it. The Jews already believed in the resurrection (Job 14:14,Psalm 71:20,Ezek.33:15), but since Christ had not yet come, Daniel wasn't going to get any prophecies about the rapture and other things that weren't revealed until much later. This is why he was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end: many will run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased. Christ came about 500 years later, and then the New Testament, which contained the increase of knowledge that would answer Daniel's question and many other things. Old Testament saints had no way of knowing these things, but today, we New Testament saints know because of the increase of knowledge that came in the New Testament. There's a lot more to this, but I'm not going to be able to list everything here, but look what Daniel was told when he started asking for more information:

Daniel 12:8-9

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

[9] And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The increase of knowledge has nothing to do with modern technology whatsoever. What was shut up and sealed was the very words to this prophecy, which would be continued later.

So one cannot tie this verse to what Paul says in 1 Thes 4. about the dead in Christ rising first. Two seperate and different events. 1 Thes 4 never mentions of any going into everlasting comtempt. But it can be tied to Christ having his elect (in hevean above and on earth below) gathered at His Second Coming. So no mystery has been solved.

From what you have written above, it appears that you believe the New Testament saints will meet in heaven above, while the Old Testament saints stay on the earth, is that right? But actually, both the Old and New Testament saints will meet in the clouds/air. The only ones who will remain on the ground are the one-third remnant of the Jews that flee to the mountains, and the sheep that are separated from the goats at the end of the age, both of which will remain in their flesh and re-populate the earth in the millennium, which will be ruled over by Christ and the saints that return with Him at the second coming.

Here's a couple more passages that should be of interest.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So even though Christ was concealed in the Old Testament, the Old Testament saints were still in Him. They had to be obedient and live by faith and their faith was counted as righteousness. And the Old Testament saints will also be present at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Matthew 8:7-12

[7] Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

[8] The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

[9] For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

[10] When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

[11] I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The unblemished lambs that the Jews sacrificed every year at Passover for the forgiveness of sins were symbolic of what Christ did on the cross. The Old Testament saints were looking forward to the promises, while the New Testament saints are looking back at the fulfillment, but Christ died once, for (all).

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Shalom, RollinTHUNDER and Montana Marv.

Guys, the answer is quite simple to one who has an open mind to change. The problem (as I see it) is that the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9 is so OFTEN equated to the "Tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21).

There's nowhere in Scripture that equates the two. But, if you would take the time to rationally consider the opinion that the "tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse was far LONGER than a mere 7 years, the Olivet Discourse begins to make sense.

You both know that my take on the Olivet Discourse is that it began in the first century, 40 years after the Messiah left this earth in 70 A.D. That much, IMO, is clear from Yeshua`s warning to His then-present disciples on the mount that day that He gave His famous Discourse. He was talking to THEM, not to some group of people 2,000 years off in the future, warning them to "head for the hills" and to stay on the rooftops in order to get out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) over the wall of the Old City. He also warned them that, if they were caught out in the fields when the pressure came, they were NOT to return into the city!

The END of the "tribulation" or the "pressure" (Greek: thlipsis) is not until immediately BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars events that are predicted as accompanying the return of the Messiah by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Therefore, I believe that it is clear from Scripture that this "tribulation" has lasted/will last for about 2,000 years!

And, to answer an objection before it is given, the "shortening of the time" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) has to do with the individual persecutions WITHIN that 2,000-year period: Rather than it being a time that is CONSISTENTLY a time of persecution and pressure (on both the Jews and the believing Gentiles) to the point that their survival is in jeopardy, there would be periods of relief within that period - minor times of truce and prosperity - to lessen their affect on God's people. Thus, they were not persistently hounded throughout history but were hounded at certain points in history: the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Russian pogroms, the Holocaust, the steady, Islamic takeover of the French government. All of these were/are PART of the "Tribulation."

I believe that the "Rapture," as many claim is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is in close conjunction with the timing of the Second Coming proper when the Messiah arrives in the skies above the Holy Land. I do NOT believe that it is "seven years earlier" as the pre tribulation rapturists would say, but then again, it is not in the MIDDLE of the "seven years" nor is it at the END of the "seven years," because the "seven years" or the final Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 is NOT the "tribulation!" These Sevens have their six purposes and those purposes do NOT include the "tribulation of the earth." They DO, however, include "to bring in everlasting righteousness," and that is PRECISELY what the New Covenant is designed to do for the Isra'elis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 33:14-22; Romans 11:26-29) which is in ANSWER to the Davidic Covenant!

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Shalom, RollinTHUNDER and Montana Marv.

Guys, the answer is quite simple to one who has an open mind to change. The problem (as I see it) is that the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9 is so OFTEN equated to the "Tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21).

There's nowhere in Scripture that equates the two. But, if you would take the time to rationally consider the opinion that the "tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse was far LONGER than a mere 7 years, the Olivet Discourse begins to make sense.

You both know that my take on the Olivet Discourse is that it began in the first century, 40 years after the Messiah left this earth in 70 A.D. That much, IMO, is clear from Yeshua`s warning to His then-present disciples on the mount that day that He gave His famous Discourse. He was talking to THEM, not to some group of people 2,000 years off in the future, warning them to "head for the hills" and to stay on the rooftops in order to get out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) over the wall of the Old City. He also warned them that, if they were caught out in the fields when the pressure came, they were NOT to return into the city!

The END of the "tribulation" or the "pressure" (Greek: thlipsis) is not until immediately BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars events that are predicted as accompanying the return of the Messiah by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28.

Therefore, I believe that it is clear from Scripture that this "tribulation" has lasted/will last for about 2,000 years!

And, to answer an objection before it is given, the "shortening of the time" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) has to do with the individual persecutions WITHIN that 2,000-year period: Rather than it being a time that is CONSISTENTLY a time of persecution and pressure (on both the Jews and the believing Gentiles) to the point that their survival is in jeopardy, there would be periods of relief within that period - minor times of truce and prosperity - to lessen their affect on God's people. Thus, they were not persistently hounded throughout history but were hounded at certain points in history: the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Russian pogroms, the Holocaust, the steady, Islamic takeover of the French government. All of these were/are PART of the "Tribulation."

I believe that the "Rapture," as many claim is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is in close conjunction with the timing of the Second Coming proper when the Messiah arrives in the skies above the Holy Land. I do NOT believe that it is "seven years earlier" as the pre tribulation rapturists would say, but then again, it is not in the MIDDLE of the "seven years" nor is it at the END of the "seven years," because the "seven years" or the final Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 is NOT the "tribulation!" These Sevens have their six purposes and those purposes do NOT include the "tribulation of the earth." They DO, however, include "to bring in everlasting righteousness," and that is PRECISELY what the New Covenant is designed to do for the Isra'elis (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 33:14-22; Romans 11:26-29) which is in ANSWER to the Davidic Covenant!

Welcome back, Retrobyter!

We have two completely different views about the tribulation. Here's my take on the tribulation, from my End-Time Blog:

http://roberthunt.ta.../end-times-blo/

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IF you find a good Greek text, you will see that John wrote, (Rev. 1) I John in THE tribulation..." The "THE" is there is every Greek text I have found, yet no translator has dared translate it. It seems in the mind of God, the entire church age is "the tribulation" and parts of it have been "great tribulation." That is why those two words were not enough for Jesus to describe those days following the abmination: He had to add that there never was and never will be such a terrible time as what is coming.

 

Did you ever would WHY the marriage  and marriage supper are in chapter 19, after the entire 70th week is finished? If you notice in John chapter 6, Jesus says over and over that He will "raise them up" on the "last day." This is for the Old Testament saints: they will be raised on the last day. That last day is the same day the 7th vial ends the 70th week. They will be guests for the wedding  - so the wedding MUST wait until they are resurrected. So how long a time after the 7th vial ends the week, until Jesus gets on the Horse? Perhaps it is 30 days....but it is only a guess. Can you see why anyone thinking they KNOW the day Jesus returns are all wet? NO ONE will know the day. It will just be some short period of time after the 7th vial.

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

Edited by iamlamad
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I'm always for letting scripture interpret itself wherever possible, So I would suggest going to the beginning of the passage to get a perfectly clear answer for the context

 

in verse 24:3

 

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 

 

there can be no mistake in identifying the verses 29-31

they plainly describe both the sign and the gathering of those waiting in heaven, (considering Paul teaches the first resurrection and the we who are alive rapture is one after the other), then I conclude the rapture also happens, and as we see His second coming is there, so its pretty conclusive that we arrive with the Lord, as this is how the bible describes His coming

 

Very interesting: Yes, Paul does say that Jesus brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him. But was their gathering in heaven to be a part of the rapture on earth? (Am I following your thoughts here?)  That is a HUGE stretch. I think a better idea is that this gathering has nothing at all to do with the rapture of the bride, but rather is God fulfulling His promise to bring all the Jews (Hebrews) back to Israel.

 

Is. 11:11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

Isaiah 43

 5Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, "Give them up!' And to the south, "Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth--

7Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

 

Jeremiah 31

6For there shall be a day when the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, "arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God."'

7For thus says the LORD: "sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, "O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!' 8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one who labors with child, together; a great throng shall return there.

10"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock.

 

Since the rapture will gather from the EARTH, not from heaven, I think it is very poor exegesis to make this gathering in Matt. a rapture, especially when there are several other verses that explain that God will gather the JEWS.

 

Lamad

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

And what is even creepier is that some think it would be some kind of adventure. :o

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1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14.

2.The second coming occurs after the Great and terrible tribulation(Revelation chapter 6-19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation3;10.

3.The rapture is the removal of the believers from Earth as an act of deliverance 1Thessalonians 4:13-17;5:9.

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Mathew 24;40-41.

4.The rapture will be secret and instant 1Corinthians 15:50-54.

The second coming will be visible to all Revelation 1:7;Mathew 24:29-30.

5.The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2Thessalonians 2:4;Mathew 24:15-20;Revelation chapters 6-18.

The rapture is imminent;it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13;1Thessalonians 4:13-18;1Corinthians 15:50-54.

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Yeah what she said.... :red_smile: ......... :thumbsup:

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