Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

* * * * * 1 votes

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
145 replies to this topic

#1
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts
Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


#2
FresnoJoe

FresnoJoe

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,453 posts

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


It's

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

About

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark 13:27

Israel

For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
Jeremiah 31:7-11

And Her KING You See

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?


Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joel 2:10-18

#3
BlessedByTheBest

BlessedByTheBest

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 819 posts
the second coming.


verse 29: events occurring that signify the leading up to the very end of "The Great Tribulation", or the leading up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

--------------------------------

verse 30: Christ in all His glory accompanied by those who have long since been "raptured".

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


also, further along in this very chapter, the Son of man plainly states that there will be no warning.

Matthew 24:36-44
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


it's obvious that the moon will not be blood red, stars falling, etc. for the initial departure. :biggrin2:

also, how could verse 30 allude to the rapture, when we know that Scripture says it will be instantaneous?

1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


​--------------------------------

verse 31: it seems to me that the elect described here refers to those left behind, who during the tribulation have gained salvation.

love to you and God bless.

#4
Guest_man_*

Guest_man_*
  • Guests

Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?


Both.

#5
LOVE SONGS

LOVE SONGS

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,130 posts
I think it is both. For Jesus said when He comes back....He spoke of it as a one time coming.
He didn't say , I will come back to get my bride and will back come again . Not His coming twice. My opinion.

#6
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts
So far, I have:
one - second coming,
one - unidentified, and
two - both (rapture & 2nd coming),
but no one going very deep into why they believe what they believe here.

Anyone else want to take a shot at this?

#7
other one

other one

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,813 posts
Thunder, to me it doesn't really matter. As long as I have the Holy Spirit within me guiding my life, He will either take me away before the trib, or keep me safe during the trib, or give me the strength to get through the trib, or give me the strength to die well. I try my best to not dwell on it one way or another and just take things one day at a time.
If there isn't a rapture till he resurrect us at his second coming, then if he wants to spare me the pain and agony of it all he could just stop my heart at any beat..... that would work for me.

I just don't see scripture that lets me define for myself when we are taken out of this world...... at one time or another I've convinced myself of pre/mid/post.... so like some here I'm a pan-trib now..... Leave it to the Holy Spirit and it will all pan out in the end. Only thing I'm really sure about is that He is coming back and we'll be here when he does no matter if we're here, or meet him halfway, or just come with him...

And ten thousand years from now i doubt any of us will really care.

#8
ENOCH2010

ENOCH2010

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 425 posts
Put me down for both, the rapture and second coming are the same event.

#9
nChrist

nChrist

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,996 posts
It's about the Second Coming of Christ - not the Rapture. The "Mystery" of the Church which is the Body of Christ was not revealed in Matthew. The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. At the Rapture, Christ catches His Church Up to meet Him in the air, and He doesn't come all the way down to earth. Jesus Christ comes all the way down to the earth at His Second Coming. Further, the Twelve Apostles knew nothing about the Church which is the Body of Christ until the Apostle Paul taught them. Those taken away in Matthew 24 are evil and taken away to judgment, and those who are left will enter the Millennial Kingdom set up by Jesus Christ. This is debated elsewhere in the forum and I have no intention of debating it. I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Second Coming of Christ is pretty obviously at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation Period.

#10
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts
Very interesting!

I can certainly understand why the pre-trib believers think this is the second coming. They are forced to believe it, because, obviously, they wouldn't be pre-trib if they didn't.

Two say it's the second coming (possible pre-tribbers?), but only one says why he believes this is the second coming.

But there are several that believe it is both, the rapture and the second coming. These appear to be classic post-trib believers, as they believe the rapture and second coming will happen simultaneously, but I'm unsure of why they believe it is both after examining the given passage of scripture.

Do we have anyone here that believes Matt. 24:29-31 is describing the rapture only, without the second coming?

#11
BlessedByTheBest

BlessedByTheBest

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 819 posts

Thunder, to me it doesn't really matter. As long as I have the Holy Spirit within me guiding my life, He will either take me away before the trib, or keep me safe during the trib, or give me the strength to get through the trib, or give me the strength to die well. I try my best to not dwell on it one way or another and just take things one day at a time.
If there isn't a rapture till he resurrect us at his second coming, then if he wants to spare me the pain and agony of it all he could just stop my heart at any beat..... that would work for me.

I just don't see scripture that lets me define for myself when we are taken out of this world...... at one time or another I've convinced myself of pre/mid/post.... so like some here I'm a pan-trib now..... Leave it to the Holy Spirit and it will all pan out in the end. Only thing I'm really sure about is that He is coming back and we'll be here when he does no matter if we're here, or meet him halfway, or just come with him...

And ten thousand years from now i doubt any of us will really care.


lol @ "pan-trib".. cool bro. :thumbsup:

#12
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts
No doubt, the rapture has become a very controversial subject today, even among believers. But it's sad that it has come to this, because this is our blessed hope. We were told to comfort and remind each other of this blessed hope, so I'm glad that some of you want to discuss it further, even though I disagree with most on this subject.

I guess I'm going out on a limb here, because everyone so far, believes there is at least some connection to the second coming in Matt. 24:29-31.
Pre-tribbers believe this is the second coming, while post-tribbers believe it is both, the rapture and the second coming.

As a former pre-tribber, myself, I went along with the second coming concept for years, but after a deeper, more diligent study, I no longer accept it.

Post-tribbers also believe it's the second coming, but only because they believe it's both, the rapture and second coming happening simultaneously. That's like having your cake and eating it, too. I'll give them credit for being half right, but good luck to anyone trying to convince me that it speaks of both. I may be standing alone here, but Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the rapture alone. It's Christ' glorious appearing and every eye will see Him.

Matt. 24:30-31 corresponds to 1 Thes. 4:16-18, which is known as our blessed hope and/or the rapture. This meeting and/or gathering takes place in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Christ is coming in the clouds, where believers are being caught up, to meet Him in the air. Nothing is said here about returning to the earth.

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Here again, Christ comes in the clouds, then dispatches His angels to gather His elect. Both passages mention the trumpet sounding, but nothing about returning to the earth.

#13
bornagain2011

bornagain2011

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 545 posts
I guess I would be pan-trib too, because I really don't care anymore! He is coming, and that is what I know. I am prepared to suffer in the tribulation. And I would also be very happy to be raptured out before then. But like the bison said, will we really care in 10,000 years?

Shalom,

Natalie

#14
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts


No doubt, the rapture has become a very controversial subject today, even among believers. But it's sad that it has come to this, because this is our blessed hope. We were told to comfort and remind each other of this blessed hope, so I'm glad that some of you want to discuss it further, even though I disagree with most on this subject.

I guess I'm going out on a limb here, because everyone so far, believes there is at least some connection to the second coming in Matt. 24:29-31.
Pre-tribbers believe this is the second coming, while post-tribbers believe it is both, the rapture and the second coming.

As a former pre-tribber, myself, I went along with the second coming concept for years, but after a deeper, more diligent study, I no longer accept it.

Post-tribbers also believe it's the second coming, but only because they believe it's both, the rapture and second coming happening simultaneously. That's like having your cake and eating it, too. I'll give them credit for being half right, but good luck to anyone trying to convince me that it speaks of both. I may be standing alone here, but Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the rapture alone. It's Christ' glorious appearing and every eye will see Him.

Matt. 24:30-31 corresponds to 1 Thes. 4:16-18, which is known as our blessed hope and/or the rapture. This meeting and/or gathering takes place in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Christ is coming in the clouds, where believers are being caught up, to meet Him in the air. Nothing is said here about returning to the earth.

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Here again, Christ comes in the clouds, then dispatches His angels to gather His elect. Both passages mention the trumpet sounding, but nothing about returning to the earth.

Mattew 24
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

As I have shown many times, ALL SCRIPTURE is what the LORD has given to be written ,it is ALL what the LORD tells us ,,

,too much of the time people look for a passage or 2 and want to say that it says it all,,the biggest mistake is that much scripture is ignored leading to a false interpretation

In Matt 24 Jesus is asked of when will he return , asking when is your coming; it is the2nd coming to earth,
very simple and he tells us what things will happen just before he returns to earth,

several scriptures tell us that when he comes that he will bring With him the believers in HIM stated in various ways , holy ones , saints etc etc Matt 24 is Jesus describing His return and what must happen before his return and how his return will be seen easily and plainly , how a person cannot see this clearly is shocking When scripture speaks of Jesus coming ; it is to earth , not mars or venus or anywhere else, it is speaking of coming to earth to establish HIS Kingdom on earth

When Jesus returns the saints are WITH Him, WITH Him, WITH Him

it is those who do not want to accept this FACT that creates arguments , a resurrection has happened and those who return with Jesus already have their immortal glorified ,incorruptible bodies , they rule and reign WITH Jesus in His kingdom on earth,

The 1000 year time frame begins when satan has been thrown into the pit unable to deceive the nations , which happens when Jesus returns then satan is released near the end of the 1000 years, Jesus returns AFTER the man of sin has made the temple desolate and declares himself to be god and demands everyone worship him,

ALL scripture is GOD breathed , not just what some people choose to include or ignore

Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


Jesus aspostles are asking the same question again , and the Jesus ascends into heaven and the angels tell them that Jesus will return the same way he left, ,, going up into heaven in the clouds,,
Notice where where Jesus is when he leaves; it is the Mount Olivet,, same place where he returns to
Every time people choose to omit important scripture a false interpretation will result

Zechariah 14
A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.


Daniel,

I do realize that sometimes people do string two or three verses together trying to create something that's not really there. But with all due respect, brother, you're doing the same thing here yourself. You are fetching other passages that do relate to the second coming, however, you are trying to force them into Matthew 24, simply because you believe Matt. 24 is referring to the second coming. You're going on and on about feet touching down on the mount of olives, returning with the Lord and ruling and reigning with Him 1000 years, but none of this is even in Matthew 24. I do believe we will return with Him at the second coming as well, but we don't see any of this in Matthew 24. You're simply reading more into it than is there.

There are several other scriptures that reiterate this same message, that Jesus will return to earth with the saints and they will rule & reign with him, and this happens during the time that the Man of sin , Son of perdition, has sat in the temple and put and end to the sacrifices and declares to the world that he is god and demands that all peoples all of earth worship him and he decrees that Israel be destroyed , Jesus comes and saves Israel from total destruction and establishes His Kingdom in Israel

I must disagree with you here. We will not be returning with Christ after the abomination of desolation, for this is when the tribulation begins, in the middle of Daniel's 70 th week. Jerusalem will then be trampled for 42 months.

#15
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts
Here's one reason I believe Matt. 24 shows the rapture, not the second coming. This is often overlooked, but Jesus mentions signs in the sun, moon and stars. Let's take a look:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened. This may signify that it will be dark or night time in Jerusalem, but the moon not giving light and the stars falling is very telling. This tells us that the sky will be clear enough to see stars falling, yet the moon will not be shining. This would seem to indicate that the moon is in its "new moon" phase (not visible). This is exactly the way the moon would appear just before the feast of trumpets begins. Then when the first sliver of the moon is witnessed the feast begins. This seems to fit the rapture scenario more than the second coming.

#16
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts


Here's one reason I believe Matt. 24 shows the rapture, not the second coming. This is often overlooked, but Jesus mentions signs in the sun, moon and stars. Let's take a look:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened. This may signify that it will be dark or night time in Jerusalem, but the moon not giving light and the stars falling is very telling. This tells us that the sky will be clear enough to see stars falling, yet the moon will not be shining. This would seem to indicate that the moon is in its "new moon" phase (not visible). This is exactly the way the moon would appear just before the feast of trumpets begins. Then when the first sliver of the moon is witnessed the feast begins. This seems to fit the rapture scenario more than the second coming.

It is always so strange when I show people that in order to understand what God is telling us through HIS word is you must accept the fact that the entire bible must be used, that way you have all the message , because you choose to ignore it is why you go off the wrong track,
Why you cannot see that there is a conversation taking place between Jesus and His apostles and they point blank ask when is your return and he describes the events taking place during the time of his return because he is not saying what year or day, It is really as if someone asks you when are you coming to dinner and your response is that you must first get off work; pick up the kids from school, then go to the grocery, then wash clothes , then after those things happen you can come for dinner.

The scriptures states “AFTER Those days “ now look how those days are described ,the description is from Matt 24 verse 5 and continues to Matt 24 verse 26
, it is about when Jesus returns to earth ,,

You have to understand that the scripture does not contain every word of the conversations that were said , just an overview as it would be far too long to include everything that was said by everyone

Reread what you just said ……yes the abomination that makes desolate happens at the mid of Dan 70th week …then at the end of the 70th week at time when Israel is about to be destroyed from all the attacking nations , then Jesus returns and saves Israel from destruction and we are with him when he does
Zechariah 14
A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem,
12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.


Scripture is quite specific of what THAT day will be like when Jesus returns ,,,
We are with him when he returns
A close deep study of exactly and precisely who the ‘holy ones ‘ are or who the saints really are will show explicitly that they are people who have accepted Christ Jesus as personal Lord & savoir
They are WITH Jesus when he returns

The scriptures that describe the rapture itself do not go into detail of any earthly events nor events in the sun or moon or stars ,, the rapture is just a command from God to call us up into the air , it happens in a splitsecond 1 atom of time ,,in the twinkling of an eye, caught up to be with the LORD and so shall we always be with the LORD

Think about this as
If you read Matthew you can learn who Jesus is and some of his ministry,,
Does Matthew talk about who The WORD is? Does Matthew tell us that the WORD was God? There are many facts about Jesus that we would not know if the book of John was not in the bible as it contains info that is not found in Matt ,Mark or Luke ,,they all speak of the same Christ ,,it is just more info
about the same person that provides us with all we need to know ,,a fuller deeper understanding than just one of the 4 books of the birth and ministry of Christ
The rapture is called a Mystery something that is not completely revealed but only enough to know it will happen, no specific details just that in a moment the twinkling of an eye it happens , we are told why it will happen but no details of any time frame of when except scripture reveals it is before Jesus returns to earth and we are WITH Him when he does return
The return of Christ , which is known as the 2nd coming; Christ himself tells us what events on earth and in the stars , moon will be happening just prior to and during his return

When you say : I do believe we will return with Him at the second coming as well, but we don't see any of this in Matthew 24. You're simply reading more into it than is there.

Explain like this….If you have 7 conversations with a person and in 1 or 2 conversations you tell the person that you will attend Christmas dinner with them at their house you have stated that you will be at their house for Christmas dinner..it is NOT necessary to tell a person in every conversation that you will be there for dinner,,,

same as in scripture it is not necessary to tell us the same thing 66 times over ,,Most of scripture is God telling us His plan God tells us in HIS Word what he will do , His word always reaffirms what has already been said , it does not have to same the exact same words in the exact same way over and over,,
In Genesis 3 there is the very first prophecy about the Messiah coming, but does not contain the name Jesus but that is who it refers to


Daniel,

Once again, you are adding more into Matt. 24 than is there. It's clear that your perspective and mine are not the same, which also leaves each of us with a different interpretation of things.

Sorry bro but you seem to be experiencing a case of not seeing the obvious
A the very beginning of Matthew 24 the apostles ask the question…when will you return what are the signs?

Matthew 24
Verse 3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Luke 21
5 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Mark 13:24
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[a]
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

No one will ever see the rapture, it just happens and those who will remain will be wondering what happened
At the 2nd coming everyone on earth will see Jesus returning

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, perspective and interpretation, but it's clear to me that you're not only reading more into something than what's there, but you're also overlooking things in the verses you are quoting yourself. I'll return shortly and discuss what the disciples were asking Jesus in Matthew 24:3, even though my perspective is completely different than yours.

#17
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts

Sorry bro but you seem to be experiencing a case of not seeing the obvious
A the very beginning of Matthew 24 the apostles ask the question…when will you return what are the signs?

Daniel,

You are reading more into Matt. 24:3 than is there also. The disciples did not ask Jesus, "when will you return what are the signs?"

Sometimes we believers can focus on the things that matter least. Lets take a look.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

They are not just asking when the time of His coming, and the end of the world is. Take a closer look at the passage above.
First they asked Him (when) the stones of the temple would be thrown down?.. Then they asked what the (sign) shall be of His coming and of the end of the world.

In His Answer, Christ did not tell them (when) the temple was going to be destroyed, but we know that it happened about 40 years or so later, in AD 70. However, He did provide them with the (signs) of His coming and the end of the world (age).

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


So Christ is not telling them about His second coming in Matt. 24. Instead, He is giving them exactly what they asked for, which are the (signs) that will precede His coming. First, He told them about the (sign) of the sun, moon and stars in verse [29], but then He gave them another (sign) that follows in the very next verse:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is Christ' glorious appearing. Most scholars assume that Matt. 24 is describing the second coming, but they don't mention the sign of the Son of man, probably because they don't know what it is. So what exactly is the sign of the Son of man? That's a very important question.

We know that the rapture will happen suddenly and very unexpectedly. It won't have a sign, but when it happens, the rapture, itself, will be a (sign) for the Jews, and they will lift their heads and know that their long awaited Messiah's coming and their redemption is very near.

The next verse is a dead give away!

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the rapture, which will be the sign of His second coming and the end of the age. There's no mention anywhere in Matthew chapter 24 of Christ' physical second coming to the earth, no Christ and His army returning riding on white horses, no feet touching down on the mount of Olives, no judging the nations and no separating the sheep from the goats. This can only be the rapture, His glorious appearing!

#18
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,011 posts
Daniel


Amen

In Christ
Montana Marv

#19
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,038 posts



Sorry bro but you seem to be experiencing a case of not seeing the obvious
A the very beginning of Matthew 24 the apostles ask the question…when will you return what are the signs?

Daniel,

You are reading more into Matt. 24:3 than is there also. The disciples did not ask Jesus, "when will you return what are the signs?"

Sometimes we believers can focus on the things that matter least. Lets take a look.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

They are not just asking when the time of His coming, and the end of the world is. Take a closer look at the passage above.
First they asked Him (when) the stones of the temple would be thrown down?.. Then they asked what the (sign) shall be of His coming and of the end of the world.

In His Answer, Christ did not tell them (when) the temple was going to be destroyed, but we know that it happened about 40 years or so later, in AD 70. However, He did provide them with the (signs) of His coming and the end of the world (age).

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


So Christ is not telling them about His second coming in Matt. 24. Instead, He is giving them exactly what they asked for, which are the (signs) that will precede His coming. First, He told them about the (sign) of the sun, moon and stars in verse [29], but then He gave them another (sign) that follows in the very next verse:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is Christ' glorious appearing. Most scholars assume that Matt. 24 is describing the second coming, but they don't mention the sign of the Son of man, probably because they don't know what it is. So what exactly is the sign of the Son of man? That's a very important question.

We know that the rapture will happen suddenly and very unexpectedly. It won't have a sign, but when it happens, the rapture, itself, will be a (sign) for the Jews, and they will lift their heads and know that their long awaited Messiah's coming and their redemption is very near.

The next verse is a dead give away!

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the rapture, which will be the sign of His second coming and the end of the age. There's no mention anywhere in Matthew chapter 24 of Christ' physical second coming to the earth, no Christ and His army returning riding on white horses, no feet touching down on the mount of Olives, no judging the nations and no separating the sheep from the goats. This can only be the rapture, His glorious appearing!

You can believe whatever you want to , but you are so far off base that you are not even in the ball park of accuracy
The rapture is NOT a sign for Jews, still today the majority of Jews are of the same mindset as the Jews that hung Christ on a cross , they do not accept Jesus as Messiah , the Jewish apostles were beheaded by other Jews simply for teaching about Jesus , scripture does not support your flawed ideas. Only a tiny fragment of Jews accept Jesus as savoir.There are so many facts that you do not seem to understand, one big reason the LORD is permitting persecution and chaos in Israel is because they reject Jesus as Messiah , The LORD is telling us what will happen to Israel because they refuse to repent and accept Jesus as LORD!!!!!!

Zech 14
Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Israel still mostly rejects Jesus and will pay a price up until Jesus returns
you have no idea what is really meant by "nd they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

That refers to a whole different thing that is derived from the Jewish culture that is much to long to describe now

I don't mean all Jews, but rather those that are living in Judea or around Jerusalem in Israel.

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Christ comes in the clouds, not down to the earth. Verse 30 shows His appearing when every eye will see Him. Verse 31 is the rapture and will happen in the twinkling of an eye (split second). The rapture itself will be so quick that it won't be visible, but their gathering will be visible in the clouds immediately afterwards. Nothing said about Christ returning to the earth here. This next passage shows the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Christ is coming in the clouds, where believers are being caught up, to meet Him in the air. Both passages mention the trumpet sounding, but neither mentions anything about returning to the earth at that time. The rapture takes place at His appearing:

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:




This is the rapture:
The Greek word Harpazo is the word used to describe the rapture
definition:
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, to snatch out or away

Rapiemur is derived from the root verb rapio, which means to carry off or to seize someone or something. The English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this Latin verb. Therefore, the English term “rapture” was appropriately borrowed from the Latin Vulgate as a description of what will happen at that moment based on


1 Thessalonians 4

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:17.
The Greek term for “suddenly caught up” is harpazo, which means to seize or snatch up something suddenly with great force without the consent of the owner. The specific usage of the verb in I Thessalonians 4:17 is harpagesometha, the future passive indicative tense. Compare the transliterated Greek to the English translation below:
I The 4:17 epeita hemeis oi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha [suddenly
caught up] en nephelais eis apantesin tou kuriou eis aera kai houtos pantote sun kurio esometha
I The 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up [harpagesometha] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52
(NIV)
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52
(KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The word “moment” is from ATOMUS in the Greek and it is the smallest conceivable quantity, the smallest division of time ;it can’t be cut or divided any smaller!

Also, it will happen in the twinkling of an eye as the trumpet sounds., the twinkling of an eye is the time it takes for light to hit the surface of the eye till it hits the retina. Sometimes we see a twinkling of an eye shown in video as like a tiny momentary little sparkle in a persons eye , lasting only a moment

The point I am elaborating on is that the rapture is something that no one can see with the vision of an eye , like a flash of lighting it starts and finishes in a flash , lasts no longer than an instant; a flash , it is not possible for it to last longer than an instant, start to finish the entire length of the rapture only lasts less than 1 second, therefore it is impossible for it to be referenced about coming on a horse or anything else ,

The rapture is nothing more than the action , a snatching away, or dragging away by force, to remove and take to another place and only born again believers experience this event, there are no scriptures that refer to the return of Christ that describe any Christians being snatched away by force as they are already with Jesus when he returns

You can believe whatever you want , but you are in dire need of further deeper studies
What Jesus says are signs of His return are his own description in
Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Zechariah 14
A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.


Matthew 24
Verse 3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Luke 21
5 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Mark 13:24
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[a]
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

No one will ever see the rapture, it just happens and those who will remain will be wondering what happened
At the 2nd coming everyone on earth will see Jesus returning


Christs glorious appearing is when he appears to everyone on earth, His Glorious return to earth, His 2nd coming!

your biggest mistakes is ignoring everything that the LORD tells us in HIS word He wrote it on the hearts of the men who put it in writing ,you have a lot to learn

Spare me, please. I know what the rapture is.

#20
nChrist

nChrist

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,996 posts
Matthew basics:

Some may need to read all of Matthew to understand what Matthew 24 is talking about.

The Church which is the Body of Christ was still a "MYSTERY", and Christ didn't teach anything about His Church. This "MYSTERY" would not be revealed until the Apostle Paul revealed it and taught the Twelve about it. If Christ's Church was still a "MYSTERY", certainly the same is true of the Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ.

The followers of Jesus Christ in Matthew recognized Christ as Messiah and King and asked questions about when He would set up the Promised earthly Kingdom. The answers were given in Matthew 24 - at His Second Coming. That Earthly Kingdom will become a reality after the Second Coming of Christ. If you want to know about the Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ, you won't find it in Matthew. You'll have to read the writings of the Apostle Paul. Hint: as Christians, we are members of an already existing Heavenly Kingdom, and MUCH changed at the Cross.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 NASB 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

Revelation 3:10 NASB 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.





Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network