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Everlasting Covenant

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#1
hippias

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In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.
Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).

#2
Willamina

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He was not replacing the Abrahamic Covenant but the Mosaic covenant. The Abrahamic covenalnt was dependant solely on the work of God and the faith He was to give us. The Mosaic Covenant was dependant on the Jews keeping the Law. Therefore the new covenant was to be to all to whom God was to give faith and not dependant on anything man would or could so. It was built on better promises. The Abrahamic Covenant was an everlasting covenant. The Mosaic covenant was dependant on man keeping the law, which we can never do--only God in Christ could do. So it was not an everlasting covenant. You are confusing 2 different covenants.

#3
FresnoJoe

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In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.
Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).


I Believe The Marriage Covenant Between Jesus And His Israel Was Never Annulled
And Even Now As We Fellowship Over His Promises, Israel Is Being Restored
And It Will Be Finished As Jesus Descends Back Down To Jerusalem


O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Hosea 14

Covenant

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 12:1-3

Covenant

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7

Covenant

O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
1 Chronicles 16:13-18

Covenant

He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
Psalms 105:7-11

Covenant

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Isaiah 61:6-11

Covenant

And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;
Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jeremiah 32:36-42

Covenant

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Ezekiel 37:21-28

Covenant

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 11:26-27

Beloved, I Pray This Is Maybe Of Some Help

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:28-29

Love, Your Brother Joe

#4
FresnoJoe

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He was not replacing the Abrahamic Covenant but the Mosaic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was dependent solely on the work of God and the faith He was to give us. The Mosaic Covenant was dependent on the Jews keeping the Law. Therefore the new covenant was to be to all to whom God was to give faith and not dependent on anything man would or could so. It was built on better promises. The Abrahamic Covenant was an everlasting covenant. The Mosaic covenant was dependent on man keeping the law, which we can never do--only God in Christ could do. So it was not an everlasting covenant. You are confusing 2 different covenants.


Amen~!

#5
gdemoss

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An everlasting covenant that is broken is a broken covenant. A broken covenant is of no use. It is everlasting as in it would never be retracted. Consider that the same God who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" also wrote out and gave a bill of divorcement to the northern kingdom of covenant breakers (Jer 3:8). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Prove your own selves and see if you be in the faith and not of a reprobate mind that causes you to do that which is not convenient.

I encourage you to read the Hebrews text closely and prayerfully. Their was nothing wrong with Gods covenant with Israel. The covenant itself was faultless. It says he found fault with them not the covenant. They could keep it but did not, otherwise God would be unrighteous for punishing someone for not doing something they could not do anyway. That is nonsense. They could but chose not to in unbelief. We are warned in Hebrews 4 about not doing the same though we be under a new covenant. But it is true that the new covenant is built on better promises. The promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of us as we are the temple of God as well as the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years in glorified bodies! And not to mention the promise of internal inheritance...

Let us always remember:

Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

Take heed how you hear. Be of good cheer! God loves us.

#6
shiloh357

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An everlasting covenant that is broken is a broken covenant. A broken covenant is of no use. It is everlasting as in it would never be retracted. Consider that the same God who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" also wrote out and gave a bill of divorcement to the northern kingdom of covenant breakers (Jer 3:8). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Prove your own selves and see if you be in the faith and not of a reprobate mind that causes you to do that which is not convenient.

I encourage you to read the Hebrews text closely and prayerfully. Their was nothing wrong with Gods covenant with Israel. The covenant itself was faultless. It says he found fault with them not the covenant. They could keep it but did not, otherwise God would be unrighteous for punishing someone for not doing something they could not do anyway. That is nonsense. They could but chose not to in unbelief. We are warned in Hebrews 4 about not doing the same though we be under a new covenant. But it is true that the new covenant is built on better promises. The promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of us as we are the temple of God as well as the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years in glorified bodies! And not to mention the promise of internal inheritance...

Let us always remember:

Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

Take heed how you hear. Be of good cheer! God loves us.


An everlasting covenant that is broken is oxymonoric. That means, it was not everlasting to start with ;)

Ciao

- viole

Good thing it was never broken, right?

#7
BlessedByTheBest

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An everlasting covenant that is broken is a broken covenant. A broken covenant is of no use. It is everlasting as in it would never be retracted. Consider that the same God who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" also wrote out and gave a bill of divorcement to the northern kingdom of covenant breakers (Jer 3:8). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Prove your own selves and see if you be in the faith and not of a reprobate mind that causes you to do that which is not convenient.

I encourage you to read the Hebrews text closely and prayerfully. Their was nothing wrong with Gods covenant with Israel. The covenant itself was faultless. It says he found fault with them not the covenant. They could keep it but did not, otherwise God would be unrighteous for punishing someone for not doing something they could not do anyway. That is nonsense. They could but chose not to in unbelief. We are warned in Hebrews 4 about not doing the same though we be under a new covenant. But it is true that the new covenant is built on better promises. The promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of us as we are the temple of God as well as the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years in glorified bodies! And not to mention the promise of internal inheritance...

Let us always remember:

Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

Take heed how you hear. Be of good cheer! God loves us.


An everlasting covenant that is broken is oxymonoric. That means, it was not everlasting to start with ;)

Ciao

- viole

Good thing it was never broken, right?


lol :thumbsup:

#8
GoldenEagle

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In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.
Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).


I. First what is a Biblical Covenant?

A Biblical Covenant is an agreement between God and humanity recorded in the text of the Bible.

II. Second what are the three primary Covenants in the Bible?

A. Abrahamic Covenant: – Gen. 12, 15, & 17 (New Covenant)

1. Who was it given to?
Exclusively to Abraham and his descendents through Jesse (Is. 11:1-2). All the families of the earth would be blessed by this covenant. (Gen. 12:3)

2. What was the promise?
God promised to Abraham a land, a great nation, a great name, and a blessing that would include all the families of the earth.

Gen. 12:1-3
Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.


It is important to note that this covenant was unconditional. It is explained that Abraham was looking for a better, heavenly land who’s builder is God. (Heb 11:8-16) This seed was Jesus Christ. (Gal. 3:16)

3. To who or did/does the promise apply?
All of Abraham’s descendents and those adopted as children of Abraham into God’s family through the price paid at the cross Jesus Christ and His resurrection. (Gen. 17:17, Gal. 3:7, 26-29)

4. How long would it last?
It is an everlasting covenant. (Gen. 13:15) It is not replaced by any later covenant. (Gen. 17:17) It was to replace the Mosaic Covenant. (Heb. 8:13)

5. Who was the mediator between God and Mankind?
Jesus. (Gal. 3:7, 1 Tim. 2:5)

6. How does it work?
Again, this New Covenant could not be broken and was unconditional. The focus is on God’s grace and mercy. Make no mistake – salvation is absolutely free to mankind (John 3:16) but extremely costly to God (1 Jo. 4:9, Rom. 5:8 - His Son Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross). Abraham accepted by faith God’s promise. So this covenant is based on faith in God’s promises. "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Gen. 15:6) Jesus Christ who was Messiah foretold (Gen. 12:3, Dan. 7:13, Is. 7:14, Is. 9:6) in the OT died for all people that all should no longer live for themselves but for God through Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 5:14-15) God revealed that those who Believed in Jesus Christ would be grafted into the promise made to Israel. (Rom. 1:16) The Uncircumcised (Gentiles - (Eph 2: 11) are now a part of the Circumcision (God’s chosen people of promise - Israel) through Christ’s atonement sacrifice of blood (and his life) for our sins at the cross (Eph 2: 13).

Jesus didn’t abolish the law but instead to fulfill the law. When Christ gave the summary of the law (Matt. 22:36-40), Jesus didn't do away with it. Jesus said specifically that on all the rest of law and the prophets depend on the two great commandments (Love God, Love people). He got to the heart of the issue - motivation and inner transformation. (Rom. 12:2)

Matt. 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


7. What is the sign of this covenant?
Circumcision was the outward sign of Israel (Gen. 17:10) but physical circumcision had to be matched with circumcision of the heart or the internal sign. (Deut. 30:6, Jer. 4:4) Christians lives are the testimony to God’s grace – a sweet aroma or fragrance of gratefulness to God. (2 Cor. 2:15) Jesus Christ’s sacrificial love is the standard. (Matt. 22:36-40 - Love God, Love people; John 15:13; 1 Cor. 13)


B. Mosaic Covenant: Exodus 19-24 (Old Covenant)

1. Who was it given to?
Moses and the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai. (Ex. 19:2)

2. What was the promise?
This covenant is a conditional (If Israel obeyed, then God would bless them) covenant.

Ex. 19:3-6
“Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

3. To who does or did the promise apply?
This applied to the people of Israel. (Ex. 19:3-4)

4. How long would it last?
The Mosaic Covenant was a temporary, conditional covenant (Ex. 19:5-6), and was broken by Israel. The Mosaic Covenant was to end with the coming of the Messiah. This covenant was completed in and through Jesus Christ. (Lev 6:1-39, Deut. 28, Mal. 3:5.)

5. Who was the mediator between God and Mankind?
Moses. (Ex. 19:3-4) Moses says “We will do it all.” (Ex. 19:8)

6. How does it or did it work?
This Mosaic Covenant was to end with Christ. (Heb. 8:13) The focus is on God’s holiness (A consuming fire – Ex. 24:17) and mankind’s need of a true mediator in Messiah – Jesus Christ. Moses was the mediator between God and mankind. Israel was to obey all the law as set forth in the 10 commandments on tablets of stone. (Ex. 24:17) Moses was delayed so the people fell into idolatry by making a golden calf to worship. (Ex. 32:1-6) Moses broke the first tablets when he got mad at Israel for following after idols. (Ex. 32:19-20) Moses goes back up to Mt. Sinai so God can write His laws upon the tablets of stone. (Ex. 34:1-2)

The Mosaic covenant was ratified as Moses recounted the law, people said “we’ll obey,” built an alter, set up 12 pillars, sacrificed to God, the covenant was read, the people again say “we’ll obey,” Moses sprinkles blood on the book and the people, there was a Mosaic covenant meal, and then the people went up. (Ex. 24:3-8)

7. What is the sign of this covenant?
Circumcision was the outward sign of Israel. (Gen. 17:10) The Law of the 10 Commandments was the standard.

C. Covenant To Israel:

(See http://www.worthychr...ing-grafted-in/)

Your thoughts on the covenants? Does this clarify some things?

God bless,
GE

#9
hippias

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You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians. A Jew would say the Christian belief is false and vice versa. Hence He can't be the God of both types of believers as a Jew is not Christian and a Christian not a Jew. So whether Paul refers to the covenant with Abraham or Moses, His relation to mankind changed (from the Christian viewpoint).
And before Jesus His devotees assumed that He is their God and will be with them forever but with Christ that was altered. How sure can we be that this won't happen again or already has happened?

#10
FresnoJoe

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You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians. A Jew would say the Christian belief is false and vice versa. Hence He can't be the God of both types of believers as a Jew is not Christian and a Christian not a Jew. So whether Paul refers to the covenant with Abraham or Moses, His relation to mankind changed (from the Christian viewpoint).
And before Jesus His devotees assumed that He is their God and will be with them forever but with Christ that was altered. How sure can we be that this won't happen again or already has happened?


There Are Jews Who Are In Love With Their Messiah

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:1-5

And Increasing There Are So Called Christians Who Hate The Jews

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1 John 4:20

I Wonder Who Belongs To The KING OF THE JEWS

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35

Is It The Jew Hating Christian

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:31-33

Or The Christ Loving Jew

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:29-31

Your Choice

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

~

Believe


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Love, Joe

#11
GoldenEagle

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You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians. A Jew would say the Christian belief is false and vice versa. Hence He can't be the God of both types of believers as a Jew is not Christian and a Christian not a Jew. So whether Paul refers to the covenant with Abraham or Moses, His relation to mankind changed (from the Christian viewpoint).
And before Jesus His devotees assumed that He is their God and will be with them forever but with Christ that was altered. How sure can we be that this won't happen again or already has happened?


Which passage in Hebrews are you referring to Hippias?

I would say that God is still the God of the Jews. God has not changed his mind on the matter - God chose Israel as His people. Christians are grafted into the promise made to Abraham. Many Jews have rejected God's Messiah - Jesus Christ. God does not break his promises. Would you agree?


See this site for more: http://www.hebrew4ch...ael/israel.html

This graph gives us a good picture of where Jews and Gentiles relate to the Church. Grafted-in Gentiles and Remnant Jews are saved by Jesus Christ. Ethnic Jews are ethnic Israel and Gentiles are the rest of those who are not saved.

Posted Image

Picture of grafting...
Posted Image

God bless,
GE

#12
shiloh357

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You are all right. But what I don't understand is this: God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, viz. the Jews, promising that He shall be their God forever (Gen. 17:7). Yet according to Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, God is no longer the God of the Jews but that of the Christians.

No, it doesn't. God's Covenant with Abraham in Gen. is still in force and has never been rescinded. Furthermore, there is nowhere in the book of Hebrews that says that God is no longer the God of the Jews. I don't know where you are coming up with that, but it isn't there. The rest of your post is based off of that false premise.

And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God." And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
(Gen 17:7-9)

God never breaks His promises or goes back on His word. The problem lies in how you are reading and interpreting the text.

Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD of hosts is his name: "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."
(Jer 31:35-36)

Last I checked, the fixed order of the moon and stars is still operating in the heavens. So, God has not cast them off from being His nation/people. Becareful that you don't end up assaulting God's integrity by claiming He has decided to rescind what He said He wouldn't rescind.

#13
gdemoss

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An everlasting covenant that is broken is a broken covenant. A broken covenant is of no use. It is everlasting as in it would never be retracted. Consider that the same God who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you" also wrote out and gave a bill of divorcement to the northern kingdom of covenant breakers (Jer 3:8). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Prove your own selves and see if you be in the faith and not of a reprobate mind that causes you to do that which is not convenient.

I encourage you to read the Hebrews text closely and prayerfully. Their was nothing wrong with Gods covenant with Israel. The covenant itself was faultless. It says he found fault with them not the covenant. They could keep it but did not, otherwise God would be unrighteous for punishing someone for not doing something they could not do anyway. That is nonsense. They could but chose not to in unbelief. We are warned in Hebrews 4 about not doing the same though we be under a new covenant. But it is true that the new covenant is built on better promises. The promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling each of us as we are the temple of God as well as the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ 1000 years in glorified bodies! And not to mention the promise of internal inheritance...

Let us always remember:

Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise

Take heed how you hear. Be of good cheer! God loves us.


An everlasting covenant that is broken is oxymonoric. That means, it was not everlasting to start with ;)

Ciao

- viole


Great observation viole. The truth about the word 'everlasting' used here versus the modern understanding of everlasting must be understood in order receive what the text is saying. Here is a direct statement about the 'everlasting covenant' being broken.

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

About the word used here, Solomon also used it when he built the temple.

1Ki 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

We can choose to seek to understand what is actually being said or we can simply reject what has been said based upon our own ideas of what we believe something is saying in an oxymoron way. Your call. I simply accept what I see and seek to understand what is truly being said.

Gary

#14
hippias

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shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:
My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

In any case I will review the Epistle to the Hebrews, it might very well be the case that I have misunderstood something in it. Yet the above still puzzles me.

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

#15
shiloh357

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My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.


Note that your reasoning is based on what makes sense to YOU. You have erected a standard that requires the Jews to accept Jesus in order for God to be their God. The Bible erects no such standard. So the confusion lies with carnal reasoning and not with any implied internal inconsistencies in Scripture. God can be the God of whomever He chooses and and He doens't have make sure that it makes sense to you.



P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.


Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.

#16
GoldenEagle

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P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.


Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.


To add to the discussion and shed light on Shiloh's response...

Jeremiah 31:35-36
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,

Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever
.”


God bless,
GE

#17
GoldenEagle

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In any case I will review the Epistle to the Hebrews, it might very well be the case that I have misunderstood something in it. Yet the above still puzzles me.


See the following passage:

Hebrews 8:8-12 (Reference to Jeremiah 31:31-34)

A New Covenant
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”


God bless,
GE

#18
GoldenEagle

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shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:
My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.


Jehovah God is still the same right? I believe so. He revealed Himself to Abraham and chose for Himself a people (Israel) correct? That is what is evidenced in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that God has disowned Israel (Jews) completely? See Romans 11. Israel's (The Jews) rejection by God is not total (Rom. 11:1-10) nor is it final (Rom. 11:11-36).

Regarding this question in bold... Because a non-Christian rejects Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ no longer Messiah? Has God changed His name? Has God rejected His very own Nature? No I don't believe so.

Because many Jews have rejected God and His Messiah in Jesus Christ does that mean God is still not Himself? I would say no. God's promises and nature are the same.

God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. (Ez. 16:60-63)

Ezekiel 16:60-63
60 Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’”



God will bring honor to His name. It is not for the sake of Israel that God has restored Israel – but for God’s holy name and honor. God has chosen Israel (Jews) for His names sake not for the sake of Israel (Jews). (Ez. 36:22-25, 28, 32)

Ezekiel 36:22-25, 28, 32
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice verse 17 in Galatians 3. God’s law does not annul the covenant and promise that was made to Abraham. (Gal. 3:15-18)

Gal. 3:15-18
The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i] who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Your thoughts?

God bless,
GE

#19
FresnoJoe

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shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:
My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.


Jehovah God is still the same right? I believe so. He revealed Himself to Abraham and chose for Himself a people (Israel) correct? That is what is evidenced in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that God has disowned Israel (Jews) completely? See Romans 11. Israel's (The Jews) rejection by God is not total (Rom. 11:1-10) nor is it final (Rom. 11:11-36).

Regarding this question in bold... Because a non-Christian rejects Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ no longer Messiah? Has God changed His name? Has God rejected His very own Nature? No I don't believe so.

Because many Jews have rejected God and His Messiah in Jesus Christ does that mean God is still not Himself? I would say no. God's promises and nature are the same.

God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. (Ez. 16:60-63)

Ezekiel 16:60-63
60 Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’”



God will bring honor to His name. It is not for the sake of Israel that God has restored Israel – but for God’s holy name and honor. God has chosen Israel (Jews) for His names sake not for the sake of Israel (Jews). (Ez. 36:22-25, 28, 32)

Ezekiel 36:22-25, 28, 32
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

Notice verse 17 in Galatians 3. God’s law does not annul the covenant and promise that was made to Abraham. (Gal. 3:15-18)

Gal. 3:15-18
The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i] who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Your thoughts?

God bless,
GE


Amen~!

~

Because The Christian God IS The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob


Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

And Because The Christian God Is Faithful And True

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:28-29

Israel Will Be Saved

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

And So The Christian Prays

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6

And Sings To Jehovah, Thank You LORD For Saving My Soul And Thank You LORD For Blessing Your Zion
And Bless You LORD For Their Salvation Who Will Come Back Down Through The Clouds
And I Love You LORD Jesus, I Love You My KING, I Love You
And I Bless You My Holy Holy Father
And Thank You For Yeshua
Come Quickly LORD
Maranatha~!
And Amen
Joe


#20
hippias

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My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.


Note that your reasoning is based on what makes sense to YOU. You have erected a standard that requires the Jews to accept Jesus in order for God to be their God. The Bible erects no such standard. So the confusion lies with carnal reasoning and not with any implied internal inconsistencies in Scripture. God can be the God of whomever He chooses and and He doens't have make sure that it makes sense to you.



P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.


Wrong. The stars have fixed order and that order is completely predictable. Astronomers would be unable to make scienific predictions unless there was a uniform and predictable order to the movement of the stars.

The three hour eclipse was supernatural event and God is able to manipulate nature to do as He pleases and still maintain the order of things. The order of the stars has not changed and thus God has not cast off Israel as his people.

shilo357: I just could use the same argument about the order of the stars: You are just refereing to an order that makes sense to YOU. But no one knows what order was referred to in that biblical verse. If the order means they remain at fixed positions relative to each other, then there is no order, because they move, meaning the star-signs today don't necassarily look the same as 2000 years ago.

However, that supernatural eclipse that occurred at Jesus's death, is an event that clearly depends on an alteration of the order of the world. So if one wants to interpret it thus, one could say at this point of time God changed the order of the moon, stars etc. And the longer I think about it: this particular time, the death of Jesus, would be a more than apropriate time to end the covenant with Abraham - IF God wanted to. And what sould this eclipse signify? In context to the verse you quoted, it would make sense.




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