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Limited Atonement

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55 replies to this topic

#1
Tinky

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?

#2
Jayyycuuup

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Hello TInky,
Christ came to bear the sins of ALL mean, we get this implication in 1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."

#3
nebula

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"Many are called, but few are chosen."

The atonement is for all people, but only those who receive are covered by it.

#4
GoldenEagle

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


If Christ didin't die for all people and pay the price for all sin how could He judge righteously the nations when He returns? Curious.

God bless,
GE

#5
GoldenEagle

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"Many are called, but few are chosen."

The atonement is for all people, but only those who receive are covered by it.


I agree Neb. :thumbsup:

#6
shiloh357

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


It is for all people. Some say that God has elected only some to be saved. But that flies in the face of not only many inclusive references to salvation but even the very types and shadows of redemption in the Old Testament. If Jesus died for only for a select group, John 3:16 should read:

"For God so loved the unconditionally elect that He gave His only begotten Son that only those whom God pre-destined for salvatoin should not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus loves all people, every last one of them, and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, according to Peter.

#7
FresnoJoe

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


For

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

All

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

People

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:25-29

~

Jesus


This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:
And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:
And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:
And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn:
And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer.
Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.
And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even.
And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.
And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.
Numbers 19:2-10

Saves


For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:19-23

For Whosoever

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

Will

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

#8
bigbear

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


If Christ didin't die for all people and pay the price for all sin how could He judge righteously the nations when He returns? Curious.

God bless,
GE

exactly! perfectly put

#9
allofgrace

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


The atonement first demonstrated was when the Lord told Moses to tell the people in Egypt to kill a lamb and take the blood and put it on the door posts and lintel and those that did would not be destroyed when He would strike the land of Egypt. Of course Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God who laid down His life for the forgiveness of sin of all who receive Him. Those are the elect who receive Him just like only those who believed God and put the blood on lintel and the two door posts were spared. No one is effected by Jesus atoning death who does not receive Him as Lord by faith. But what some others have said is about the same. But in effect no one that does not believe and trust Him has any of the benefit of His atoning death. So it all depends on the wording of the question asked. Was it only for the elect, yes. Which would force the next question, who are the elect, but that has created a flood of responses for the last 500 years. :swordfightsmiles: listen to them, I am right, no, I am, no you're wrong, I am not---------------O me!--I'm not going there. :help:

#10
Guest_ninhao_*

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Was Christ's atoning death only for the elect, or for all people?


Even for false prophets and false teachers !

2Pe 2:1 KJV But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

#11
Bold Believer

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The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

#12
shiloh357

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The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect.

The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect."

You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ.

#13
Bold Believer

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The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect.

The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect."

You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ.


The elect are written in the Book of Life from before time. The thing is that WE don't know who they are. The Gospel is available to be heard by all. Read Romans 9, then tell me you don't believe that God has chosen His elect. Man has NO ability to receive the gift on his own, because man is dead in sins. The Spirit enlightens and man responds.

#14
gdemoss

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Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

#15
gdemoss

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The passage was written to those "In Christ" Gary, (Eph 1:1) Believers have all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places available to them, not the unsaved.
What about those not saved yet?

There is no scripture that supports any God picking and choosing who gets born again and avoids hell. God's will is that "NOBODY" perishes.

Jesus Is Lord.


Mike, I simply quoted a verse. You chose to believe what you wanted about my motive for doing such. Amazing isn't it. The verse I quoted simply shows that God did chose some before the foundation of the world for his purpose and those some were the ones that Paul was directly speaking about. I wasn't wishing to imply that it was all encompassing in any way, shape or form. The crux of the matter is seen in perfect versus permissive will of God as many have testified to there being two. The controversial topic one must deal with is 'if God can stop something from happening but doesn't, does that make God responsible for not stopping it?' I don't have an answer. This type of question is too great for me. If a man sitting in a restaurant with a gun in his jacket watches a thief come in and rob the place, killing two patrons in the process but holds his peace and finishes his meal before walking out, is he responsible for allowing the crime to be committed? Should he be held accountable for not doing something when he clearly could have? What if it could be proven that he had an absolute clear shot at the criminal prior to the killing of the patrons without any possibility that the criminal would accomplish his mission? Should such a man be demonized?

Now that I have said all that and opened up a can of worms, I must also say that there is much we do not know about righteousness, justice and God that keeps me from saying that I have an answer to all of it. God has said in his word that his people had limited the Holy One of Israel. God has shown that Satan can move him against one of his own without a cause (but of course you seem to find one when you read it and pin it on Job's fear). I simply don't have enough information to understand these things. They are to great for me. I simply have to conclude that God is righteous and just, and that in the end we will all understand much better than we do today. Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them. It is clear to me either way that God knew before he ever created anything that some would ultimately be lost.

The bible is clear that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. It is equally as clear that Christ himself will judge who does and does not receive the atonement for sin and receive eternal life with him in glory. For this cause we each ought seek to have a good conscience before God and man as Luke wrote of Paul saying. With our limited understanding, let us seek to do good unto all and be made perfect in love that we might have boldness in the day of judgment as perfect love casts out fear.

#16
Guest_ninhao_*

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.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?
Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.

It is clear to me either way that God knew before he ever created anything that some would ultimately be lost.


Yes this makes sense.

The bible is clear that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. It is equally as clear that Christ himself will judge who does and does not receive the atonement for sin and receive eternal life with him in glory. For this cause we each ought seek to have a good conscience before God and man as Luke wrote of Paul saying. With our limited understanding, let us seek to do good unto all and be made perfect in love that we might have boldness in the day of judgment as perfect love casts out fear.


The atonement is sufficient for all but will only save those who apply the Blood of Christ through faith. ( applied the blood to their door posts ) . So Jesus did not apply this blood but the man did?

I hope this isn't incorrect.

#17
gdemoss

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.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?
Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.


What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.

#18
Guest_ninhao_*

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.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?
Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.


What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.


Ok. By this logic you are saying God chooses even when he makes no decision? God chooses not to choose ?

Sorry this does seem a little strange.

Poor God receives the blame either way :(

#19
gdemoss

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.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?
Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.


What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.


Ok. By this logic you are saying God chooses even when he makes no decision? God chooses not to choose ?

Sorry this does seem a little strange.

Poor God receives the blame either way :(


This is the thing I am wrestling with. Yes, it is strange. Can we simply choose not to choose in regards to salvation and be saved by not choosing or is not choosing still making a choice for us?

#20
Guest_ninhao_*

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This is the thing I am wrestling with. Yes, it is strange. Can we simply choose not to choose in regards to salvation and be saved by not choosing or is not choosing still making a choice for us?


Sorry you lost me a few choices ago :D

Ok let me think. Yes there are times when making no choice decides an issue. If you are given an ultimatum and make no response then the conditions of the ultimatum will be effected anyway. So in this situation no decision is equal to deciding in the negative.




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