Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Magic

- - - - -

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
61 replies to this topic

Poll: Magic (15 member(s) have cast votes)

Is Magic evil?

  1. Voted Yes (14 votes [93.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 93.33%

  2. No (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. It can be either good or evil. (1 votes [6.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  4. None of the above. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote

#1
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts
Nowadays the theme in many books and movies is centered around "magic". I have a question which I believe to be very relevant to Christians today: Is magic or the theme of magic evil in of itself, or can it be used to glorify God or both?

#2
Bold Believer

Bold Believer

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,628 posts
Alex, when you read this, you might think I'm nitpicking. I'm not. I think you mean "magick". The occultists spell their 'craft' with a 'k' at the end. Magic (most properly) is the slight of hand that we see stage magicians do to awe audiences, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Magick is occultism and that is what these movies you speak of are promoting. By their intentionally leaving the 'k' off the end of magick, those who are into such evil slip it past the unsuspecting. Magick is most definitely evil, doesn't glorify God and should be avoided by Believers.

#3
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Alex, when you read this, you might think I'm nitpicking. I'm not. I think you mean "magick". The occultists spell their 'craft' with a 'k' at the end. Magic (most properly) is the slight of hand that we see stage magicians do to awe audiences, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Magick is occultism and that is what these movies you speak of are promoting. By their intentionally leaving the 'k' off the end of magick, those who are into such evil slip it past the unsuspecting. Magick is most definitely evil, doesn't glorify God and should be avoided by Believers.


The Encyclopaedia Britannica says this about "magic":


magic, a concept used to describe a mode of rationality or way of thinking that looks to invisible forces to influence events, effect change in material conditions, or present the illusion of change. Within the Western tradition, this way of thinking is distinct from religious or scientific modes; however, such distinctions and even the definition of magic are subject to wide debate....

The magic to which I refer is "a concept used to describe a mode of rationality or way of thinking that looks to invisible forces to influence events, effect change in material conditions". This "magic" is found in the Harry Potter books and films, several of C.S. Lewis' books including the Chronicles of Narnia (several have been made into movies) and many other books and films. Are these representations of "magic" evil?

Is "magic" evil? - is the "concept of a mode of rationality or way of thinking that looks to invisible forces to influence events, effect change in material conditions" intrinsically evil?

The Oxford Dictionary of English defines "magic" as:

magic
noun
  • the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
According to this definition, the Christian God often works using "magic", as do many characters in the Bible and other Christian writings.

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 03:27 PM.


#4
Bold Believer

Bold Believer

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,628 posts
Absolutely, using invisible forces to influence events is evil.

#5
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Absolutely, using invisible forces to influence events is evil.


God and most believers use invisible forces to influence events every day! God is invisible (usually, at least to us - see 1 Timothy 1:17), and he influences the visible universe with invisible forces constantly and Christians pray every day, appealing to the invisible God to influence the universe using invisible and visible forces.

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#6
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts

Nowadays the theme in many books and movies is centered around "magic". I have a question which I believe to be very relevant to Christians today: Is magic or the theme of magic evil in of itself, or can it be used to glorify God or both?


Are you trying to say that Magic can be used for good AlexanderJ?

I think there is a difference between magic (or magick) and creativity would you agree?

#7
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts
Of course, magic can be evil and occult - I would never deny this. I would simply propose that it is not intrinsically good or evil, like most everything else in the universe. I think that C.S. Lewis illustrated this eloquently in many of his writings including but not limited to the "Chronicles of Narnia" and "The Space Trilogy".

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 03:48 PM.


#8
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts


Nowadays the theme in many books and movies is centered around "magic". I have a question which I believe to be very relevant to Christians today: Is magic or the theme of magic evil in of itself, or can it be used to glorify God or both?


Are you trying to say that Magic can be used for good AlexanderJ?

I think there is a difference between magic (or magick) and creativity would you agree?


Yes, I do think that Magic can be used for good as well as evil, especially in light of its definition.

What do you mean by "creativity"? Could you elaborate a little more?

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#9
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts

Of course, magic can be evil and occult - I would never deny this. I would simply propose that it is not intrinsically good or evil, like most everything else in the universe. I think that C.S. Lewis illustrated this eloquently in many of his writings including but not limited to the "Chronicles of Narnia" and "The Space Trilogy".


Interesting. I like C.S. Lewis and Tolkein personally. Yet to me these are just fantasies or a made up world. I would never promote actual use of magic for any purpose. God's Holy Spirit is our guide and it is through His power alone that miracles/wonders occur.


What do you mean by "creativity"? Could you elaborate a little?


My question is though what about Harry Potter, the Twilight Saga, etc.?

Creative writting is one thing. Writtings based on the occult is something completely different would you agree?

#10
other one

other one

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,653 posts
I don't believe I personally would consider the workings of God as magic/k. To not separate the two blurs a dividing line that should never be blurred.

#11
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Writtings based on the occult is something completely different would you agree?


Of course. If a writing supports evil and the occult (the Forces and Principalities of Evil) it is of course, evil.

However, Magic, by definition is "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces". Both God and the Devil use invisible and supernatural power. The power is not evil in of itself, it is how it is used, wouldn't you agree?

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.


#12
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts

I don't believe I personally would consider the workings of God as magic/k. To not separate the two blurs a dividing line that should never be blurred.


I agree. I don't think I'd call God's workings magic(k). There is good and there's evil.

#13
Bold Believer

Bold Believer

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,628 posts
For one to use 'invisible forces' whose motives are evil to influence events is evil.

#14
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts


Writtings based on the occult is something completely different would you agree?


Of course. If a writing supports evil and the occult (the Forces and Principalities of Evil) it is of course, evil.

However, Magic, by definition is "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces". Both God and the Devil use invisible and supernatural power. The power is not evil in of itself, it is how it is used, wouldn't you agree?


God's unlimited power is 100% good. Satan and his minions limited power is 100% evil. There really is no comparison in my mind.

God's unlimited power = miracles/wonders = 100% good

Satan's limited power = evil/magic(k) = 100% evil

#15
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts

For one to use 'invisible forces' whose motives are evil to influence events is evil.


Of course! But the Power in of itself is not evil, is it?

#16
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts

God's unlimited power is 100% good. Satan and his minions limited power is 100% evil. There really is no comparison in my mind.


I agree wholeheartedly. However, I was not trying to compare God and Satan (that would be blasphemy); I was simply pointing out that both use invisible and supernatural power, both of which fall within the definition of "magic".


God's unlimited power = miracles/wonders = 100% good

Satan's limited power = evil/magic(k) = 100% evil


Except for the conclusion that "magic" is synonomous with evil, I agree 100%.

If magic is intrinsically evil, then C.S. Lewis' books are not only mistaken but blasphemous, since Christ is symbolized by the Lion, who uses and speaks well of certain magic in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". Also, the "Emperor" who symbolizes God the Father, uses magic as well (I quote from the "Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" by C.S. Lewis):

"Oh, Aslan!" whispered Susan in the Lion's ear, "can't we - I mean, you won't, will you? Can't we do something about the Deep Magic? Isn't there something you can work against it?" "Work against the Emperor's Magic?" said Aslan, turning to her with something like a frown on his face. And nobody ever made that suggestion to him again.

Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 04:34 PM.


#17
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts
1. Forms of Magic:

Divination: occurs when a person learns information by supernatural means.

Transmutation: occurs when a person or object is transformed either subtly or obviously.

Evocation: occurs when a person manipulates energy to create something out of nothing.


***The focus of magic is what a person can do and not what God can do.***


2. What is the source (authority) of power from magic?

Authority is important. Jesus was questioned regarding His authority.

Matt. 21:23
23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”



Yet we know that Jesus’ authority came from God and it was God who was doing the miracles/wonders.

John 14:10-11
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.



Casting out demons – A house divided cannot stand. He is who is not with Jesus is against Him.

Matt. 12:22-30
22
Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f] the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

In the world there are two sources of supernatural power: Power that comes from God and power that comes from His enemies (Satan and his demons). In the Bible there is clear condemnation of mediums, spiritists, sorcerers, soothsayers, etc. because they didn’t receive their power from God but from His demonic enemies.

#18
GoldenEagle

GoldenEagle

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,464 posts
3. What are the results of magic?

The Bible says you will know a tree by it’s fruit. A person will be known by what they do.

Matt. 7:16-20
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


What does magic result in? Galatians 5 gives us a good starting list…

Galatians 5:19-21
19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

What about the results of those who love God, accept Christ as their Savior, and follow Him? Galatians 5 also speaks to this.

Galatians 5: 22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Your thoughts?

#19
AlexanderJ

AlexanderJ

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 305 posts
1. Forms of Magic:

Divination: occurs when a person learns information by supernatural means.

Transmutation: occurs when a person or object is transformed either subtly or obviously.

Evocation: occurs when a person manipulates energy to create something out of nothing.


***The focus of magic is what a person can do and not what God can do.***


The source of all good as God. A person, through the power of God can do the supernatural and the impossible. I would say that the focus of evil magic is exactly as you described "what a person can do and not what God can do" but I would say the focus of good magic is "what God can do through person who believes in him".

A believer can learn information and manipulate the visible world by and from supernatural means. This happens all the time the Bible, and is supported by it as well (as an example, see Samuel 3, Matthew 21:21, Hebrews 11:33). This power, of course, comes directly through and from God.

An unbeliever can also obtain information from supernatural means and this is where mediums and astrologers come in. They receive their power and information from the devil and his minions.

The fruits of all supernatural power that is derived from God are good and the fruits of all supernatural power that comes from the devil and his minions are evil. My point is that magic ( defined as: the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.) Is not evil in of itself.

What are your thoughts on what I wrote earlier?:

If magic is intrinsically evil, then C.S. Lewis' books are not only mistaken but blasphemous, since Christ is symbolized by the Lion, who uses and speaks well of certain magic in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". Also, the "Emperor" who symbolizes God the Father, uses magic as well (I quote from the "Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" by C.S. Lewis):

"Oh, Aslan!" whispered Susan in the Lion's ear, "can't we - I mean, you won't, will you? Can't we do something about the Deep Magic? Isn't there something you can work against it?" "Work against the Emperor's Magic?" said Aslan, turning to her with something like a frown on his face. And nobody ever made that suggestion to him again.


Edited by AlexanderJ, 12 December 2012 - 05:01 PM.


#20
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts

However, Magic, by definition is "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces". Both God and the Devil use invisible and supernatural power. The power is not evil in of itself, it is how it is used, wouldn't you agree?


Something to consider, though -


What would you call "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using [God]".?

Can God be "used"?


What would you call "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using [faith]".?

Is our faith "our" power to "use" at will for purposes or our deaming?




Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network