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Opinion? Fact? Which is it?

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24 replies to this topic

#1
John Robinson

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I'm still fairly new here to Worthy, and I've been noticing something disturbing (and to be fair, not just here, but on other Christian sites as well). It's this: on every non-salvic topic that comes up, invariably there will be people who show up to contest it. And that's fine, iron sharpens iron, after all. But the problem is frequently they do it in such a snotty manner.

For instance, let's say someone wants to discuss a pre-trib rapture (and in the interests of full disclosure, I started thinking about this when a rapture thread here was recently closed due to tempers flaring). It's a fair enough topic; until the day we're taken out of here (or not, depending on which view one takes) this theme always engenders lively banter. That is, until somebody pops up with a version of "the rapture is a LIE from HELL" (with the unsaid conclusion being "and if you think it's true, you're an idiot"). I'm using this only as an example; any hot-button topic will do.

So the question is, why is it so hard for people to soften their words with the addendum, "in my opinion"? As in, "in my opinion, the rapture theory has some problems; let's discuss that", or "I understand you still believe in miracles, but I've been taught those days are over. I'm open to talking about that."

Let's face it, NO ONE has all the facts on everything. I mean, say I believe in a pre-trib rapture (which I do), that God still does miracles (ditto), the gifts are still in operation today (yowza!) ... any number of things that go crosswise of what some of my brothers and sisters in Christ believe. None of these issues are salvic, so why do some folks become so heated when they're discussed. Has the lack of civility we see in the world crept into the church to such a degree that people get so daggone mean when their views are challenged?

Edited by John Robinson, 14 December 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#2
OneLight

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I have been wondering the same myself for some time and have concluded that it is the flesh. The flesh produces pride and arrogance, amongst other attributes, which can do much damage.

#3
Sevenseas

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I've gotten hot under the collar myself a few times...mostly when scripture gets really taken out of context (like let's add to it and that sort of thing) but
I prob have refrained from calling someone an idiot...at least in the forum, eh? A few times a mod has asked me to kindly tone it down (via pm)
and I have tried and recently some things upset me...so yeah, but I agree some remarks are obviously over the top...but if you notice, they will
usually be coming from a person who is relatively new and needs to have an 'adjustment'

For me, I find the best thing is to chill...go do something else (actually a mod suggested that during my last 'episode' :help:
and it works....I really like using...reading and writing...on Christian forums and at the moment only belong to this one
but do read others, so, it makes sense to adjust yourself to the one you are on and respect the TOS

and yes folks, we do have a special button here that can work until y'all calm down...'ignore'

#4
nebula

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The problem is we are emotionally attached to what we believe, and we focus on our belief (which we are certain is "the truth" and if the other person doesn't believe "the truth" then they are in deception, and it is our job to free them of this deception!!!) rather than the person we are conversing with.

Actually, it isn't just a "here" thing. Most people are like this everywhere, the only difference is in "here" we don't have the element of body language, and without seeing the other person it is like we are debating a belief rather than a person, which is easier to tear down.

#5
Sevenseas

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Would also like to add....I didn't used to, but now, when a post really irritates me I won't respond or think they need my 2 pennies worth....whereas
I used to post pronto....and then the diatribe was on LOL!

There are some people who are just going to irritate you no matter what....and some of those people are Christians, so, you have to ask yourself
how you can get along and it seems this is a lesson we are all asking all the time

#6
enoob57

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I've gotten hot under the collar myself a few times...mostly when scripture gets really taken out of context (like let's add to it and that sort of thing) but
I prob have refrained from calling someone an idiot...at least in the forum, eh? A few times a mod has asked me to kindly tone it down (via pm)
and I have tried and recently some things upset me...so yeah, but I agree some remarks are obviously over the top...but if you notice, they will
usually be coming from a person who is relatively new and needs to have an 'adjustment'

For me, I find the best thing is to chill...go do something else (actually a mod suggested that during my last 'episode' :help:
and it works....I really like using...reading and writing...on Christian forums and at the moment only belong to this one
but do read others, so, it makes sense to adjust yourself to the one you are on and respect the TOS

and yes folks, we do have a special button here that can work until y'all calm down...'ignore'

for me the really unique thing is to sense the love the Spirit of God places within me for people here
that disagree with one's formed beliefs... I believe God 'IS' applying our hearts toward change as none
of us have it perfect! Love, Steven

#7
gdemoss

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

#8
enoob57

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

That because you press harder on the keys then other times :happyhappy:

#9
gdemoss

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

That because you press harder on the keys then other times :happyhappy:


That is just so depressing

#10
enoob57

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

That because you press harder on the keys then other times :happyhappy:


That is just so depressing

Oh nay nay... impressive

#11
gdemoss

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

That because you press harder on the keys then other times :happyhappy:


That is just so depressing

Oh nay nay... impressive

Your leaving quite the impression on me Steven.

#12
enoob57

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I have noticed that others have perceived me as being angry when I was not even the slightest frustrated. I have watched carefully as I read others posts, seeking to discern their true countenance but it is difficult, as Nebula said, without the aid of body language etc. When someone perceives you as being angry with them, it is that much easier for them to fall into the trap of retaliating against an inaccurately perceived response. I meditate daily on the nine fruits of the Spirit seeking to have them about me at all times but even Jesus who did possess them always was told that he was a Samaritan that had a devil. We live in a very difficult world.

That because you press harder on the keys then other times :happyhappy:


That is just so depressing

Oh nay nay... impressive

Your leaving quite the impression on me Steven.

Love ya brother... :thumbsup:

#13
OneLight

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D'OH!

Posted Image

#14
enoob57

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D'OH!

Posted Image

:24: awesomly perfect response

#15
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If everyone would just accept that I'm always right we'd never have to be frustrated again!

I have (almost) learned to stay out of threads on the rapture, the trinity, Martin Luther, Creation, Calvin, baptism, drinking, dancing, music, and all other topics where christians have an opinion. I'd prefer a hot political arguement than risk someone stumbling over the truth in a debatable issue. The truth matters but not all matters are worth fighting over.

I notice that those who are weak in faith have particular hot-button issues where they are insecure and the slightest hint of doubt will cause their whole world to crumble.

Admittedly, I also get angry (surprise!) but it's usually over someone who is willfully twisting the truth in a life-and-death issue. Otherwise, I don't want weak people to know that I don't care what they think about my liberty from legalism.

#16
FresnoJoe

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If everyone would just accept that I'm always right we'd never have to be frustrated again!

I have (almost) learned to stay out of threads on the rapture, the trinity, Martin Luther, Creation, Calvin, baptism, drinking, dancing, music, and all other topics where christians have an opinion. I'd prefer a hot political arguement than risk someone stumbling over the truth in a debatable issue. The truth matters but not all matters are worth fighting over.

I notice that those who are weak in faith have particular hot-button issues where they are insecure and the slightest hint of doubt will cause their whole world to crumble.

Admittedly, I also get angry (surprise!) but it's usually over someone who is willfully twisting the truth in a life-and-death issue. Otherwise, I don't want weak people to know that I don't care what they think about my liberty from legalism.


Some Folk Just Major

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

In The Majors

O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise, even with my glory.
Awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early.


I will praise thee, O LORD, among the people: and I will sing praises unto thee among the nations.
For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds.


Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: and thy glory above all the earth;
That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me.


God hath spoken in his holiness; I will rejoice, I will divide Shechem, and mete out the valley of Succoth.
Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;
Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia will I triumph.
Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom?


Wilt not thou, O God, who hast cast us off? and wilt not thou, O God, go forth with our hosts?
Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man.


Through God we shall do valiantly: for he it is that shall tread down our enemies. Psalms 108

#17
Omegaman

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When you see someone get angry about a topic, or start to degrade other brothers and Sisters in Christ "The rapture is the fly away doctrine, A lie from hell, A cowards doctrine."

Then you know that by the spirit they listen to and operate under, it's their Doctrine that is wrong.Right Doctrine always is confident, walks in love, and is kind.


That sounds good Mike, but it is a non-sequitur. With that understanding, we would either have to conclude, that the calmist person is most likely right, or that most all doctrines are wrong, becuase you can always find a passionate person arguing any position. The are plenty of people who are wrong and quite confident. Look in any cult, you will find confidence, and unless all cults and religions are equally true (and contradictory things cannot all be true), then we have to conclude that while being correct might make you confident, being wrong can make you confident as well.

Perhaps it would be better to say, that a lack of confidence tends to make one more prone to the name calling that is bred of uncertainty, but I can assure you that people who are confident, are quite capable of letting their emotions get the best of them. I think much of the time in that case, it is not uncertainty, but the frustration of not being able to make what seems obvious, obvious to others. What do you think?

#18
Butero

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The only answer I have to the question in the OP is that we all know that we are the one who is right, and others are wrong, and we are trying to save everyone from false doctrine. This creates a lot of friction. I used to get real heated in similar debates, but I realized that God didn't call us to convert everyone. How can he expect us to make everyone see the truth the way we do. All we are called to do is repeat what God showed us, and each person is accountable to accept or reject that truth.

As I say this, someone is probably already taking it like I am saying I have all truth. That is not the point I am making. What I am saying is that all of us feel we have the truth, and it is settled on a particular topic. We know we are right. It can be a debate on the rapture, Bible translations, sanctification, predestination, legalism, anything. I am right (every individual posting) and everyone else is wrong. If we didn't believe that, we wouldn't be pushing our views. I am not saying this is wrong. We should be confident in what we believe, but at the same time, the frustration comes in when we think our very life depends on making everyone else see things as we do. That is not possible. Only God can change a heart, so rather than getting angry over what I perceive to be false teachings, I just give my opinions, listen to what others say, and accept the fact we will never all agree. I wish we could get along, because being able to speak freely without the personal attacks can be useful, in learning why people believe what they do, and perhaps in coming to new conclusions ourselves.

#19
Fez

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I have never been hurt by that which I have not said.....

There are some subjects that I just steer clear of. I will react if I see what I think is false teaching, but some stuff like gun control, education, most politics, it is not worth the hassle of getting into protracted discussion. Am I going to change someone's mind? Probably not.

I am old and have learned to pick my fights carefully. Always having some sort of escape route....

Like now......


#20
gdemoss

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There is a purpose for heresies in the church:

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Hitler saw Jesus as a warrior who went into the temple tossing over tables. A mans man who withstood the Pharisee's, scribes and lawyers to the face calling them hypocrites, and explaining to them in simple terms that they were headed for hell. One who spoke poorly of the Jews of his day. His perceptions of who Christ was led him to do some pretty terrible acts.

The issue here is that many who do these things do them believing that what they are doing is right in Gods eyes. Saul drug Christians out of their homes, arresting them and throwing them into prisons in the name of God.

God's ways are higher than our ways. He tries our hearts with what he allows in our lives including those who are character assassins seeking to destroy ones credibility through false accusations. We are promised that if we endure temptation we will receive a crown of life. We are told straight forward that the man of God should not strive but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach and patient. That he is to meekly instruct those who set themselves in opposition to that which is truth.

Before Paul had his encounter with Christ, he could not espouse such a view. He had a zeal of God but not according to knowledge. Those of us who have truly received Christ by faith and have taken Peters advice to add to that faith knowledge, and the other things he said, should easily be able to understand the position of such a one who is full of angst and zeal, who uses their sword so clumsily that all they end up doing is cutting off the ear of those they think they are helping, leaving them deaf until Jesus restores their hearing. Our job is to pray for them as Paul prayed for his countrymen and their zeal that was not according to knowledge.

It is only if one takes the attacks personally and allows pride to bring about contention, having the necessity to set the other straight, that we loose. Just as there was a certain sect of the Pharisees who believed and came in saying it was needful to circumcise the gentiles and command them to keep the law of Moses, there will be every error under the heaven brought into the church for the purpose of causing those who are approved to stand out. We need only have the shield of faith to stave off the fiery darts of the wicked.




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