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no throwing stones by my TULIP friends, please...

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#1
L10

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How can a reformed Arminian share that grace is Not irresistible? Ok, not even sure the boards will let me jump away from my junior status in less than 24 hours from 100th post, but I have had the meat and potato talks plenty. I do this with no offense to my brothers in Christ, much as it should be done. Let me explain part of something that many of my Calvinist friends just never want to start to listen to. First, recently it has appeared that these discussions get more heated, and stones get thrown, hence my thread title. So, let me provide some moderate theology; not systematic.

All Arminians hold that people can resist God's saving grace. Divine grace doesn't act like some massive tidal wave, overwhelming the sinner's will in it's wake. Making any sense yet? Most will already protest if they are Calvinist educated... but listen on for a few. God's grace works thru suasion, influencing sinners, drawing them toward God, enabling them to respond in faith.
YET, when peope respond in faith and repentance, it is truly THEIR response, one that might have been otherwise !! The reason for this is that God works with his human creation in light of the creature's personhood. God's grace is thus resistible grace, from the start to finish, both before and after salvation.

#2
L10

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Paul says that the grace of God comes to all men~ Titus 2:11.
John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me." Let me elaborate upon these with a shared discussion with a Calvinist friend.
C~ "If all are enabled, and all are drawn, then Universalism must surely result - all would be saved."
A~ "Yes, if God's grace were irresistible Grace". God can Sovereignly choose that his salvation is not going to proceed along the deterministic lines; the cause and effect relationship. Rather, He is going to allow the sinner to resist the grace He has sovereignly enabled the sinner to accept.

What Jacob Arminius says to why God would do such a thing~~ Arminius states: ... beside his own omnipotent and internal action, God is both able and willing to employ the following argument: "God justifies no persons except such as believe: Believe therefore, that thou mayest be justified." With respect, then, to this argument, faith will arise from suasion... In his omnipotent act God employs {for uses} this argument; and by this argument, when rightly understood, He efficaciously produces {operates} faith. If it were otherwise, the operation would be expended on a stone or a lifeless body, and not upon the intellect of man"

So, we sorta see things as a "influence and effect" as you may be seeing things as a "cause and effect".

This is a compelling subject to me, as if one were to note that grace is resistible; then full Calvinism; essentially OSAS could not exist.

Now, I have thoroughly enjoyed my time on this forum, and have no put on some bigger britches, though the Spiritual warfare section is certainly worthy of good attention.
Let me also add that I have never noted one reason for a "C" to alter their opinion off a simple post. I ask you to ponder for a while, rather than simply respond with your first inclination of schooling. I am not Pelagian, Semi Pelagian, and have sincerely only noted that I have known more than just one sincere Christian that walked away from the faith to another, or worse. It was not good enough for me to hear the Pastor tell me that He was not truly saved. I heard the same Pastor say this person is indeed a Christian at this very moment (the time of his salvation years before), for He has professed with his mouth, and believed in his heart.... ! It was not enough several times over, and even though I know that God possibly predetermines the Elect, we as Humans can not see it that way. We react to a calling? Yes. It is a free will to us, and to call it otherwise would be sorta presumptuous. Hey, thanks for bearing with me. Be kind back, and I will as well. Love you all, just wanting to share some things that may clear up that Arminians are not WORKS based. Further discussion soon. Happy New Year to you all too.

Edited by L10, 31 December 2012 - 05:39 AM.


#3
Tinky

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You will find that though they don't admit it, most every believer has some things they feel God is in total and complete control.



Yes. Everything.

#4
L10

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That is sorta odd that not many Calvinists are not here, but It is welcomed by me. Yes, it is about the Lord, and I felt that possibly a few things that normally get thrown in my face could be explained with some ease. I do realize that the other forums I was on were more about equipping for apologetics, and it got sorta nasty. Good things are nicer here, way good.

#5
ENOCH2010

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Could somebody kindly tell me what I am,I excepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour of my life 40 years ago, I don't think I can do anything in my life to separate me from Jesus, nor do I believe that I can do anything to add to my salvation. I have sinned several times since I was born again,but I hope and pray Jesus' blood covered those sines when his Blood cleansed me the first time, 40 years ago.

#6
L10

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Could somebody kindly tell me what I am,I excepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour of my life 40 years ago, I don't think I can do anything in my life to separate me from Jesus, nor do I believe that I can do anything to add to my salvation. I have sinned several times since I was born again,but I hope and pray Jesus' blood covered those sines when his Blood cleansed me the first time, 40 years ago.

Probably fairly simple answer, and you know it in your heart and confess it with your mouth, right? ....,, so it adds up with some logic too. Once saved = Always believer ? Maybe not, but your belief is intact, Jesus is your savior. The resistible grace that I shared was only to share the perspective. Is it possible? Many think it is not, but if only one person in history debunks Once saved Always believer (saved), then it is certainly possible.
That would sorta be a silly question to ask... at least I feel. Our faith is paramount in having a present standing, don't you believe. Not casting out ideas like " if we sin we have fallen", I know, many have. Peace, love, and truth to you.

#7
Tinky

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Could somebody kindly tell me what I am,I excepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour of my life 40 years ago, I don't think I can do anything in my life to separate me from Jesus, nor do I believe that I can do anything to add to my salvation. I have sinned several times since I was born again,but I hope and pray Jesus' blood covered those sines when his Blood cleansed me the first time, 40 years ago.



If you have repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone for your salvation, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, are covered by the blood. :heart:

#8
L10

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Could somebody kindly tell me what I am,I excepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour of my life 40 years ago, I don't think I can do anything in my life to separate me from Jesus, nor do I believe that I can do anything to add to my salvation. I have sinned several times since I was born again,but I hope and pray Jesus' blood covered those sines when his Blood cleansed me the first time, 40 years ago.



If you have repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone for your salvation, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, are covered by the blood. :heart:

Tinky, not to get into this too deeply, but if any person in history was once saved, and then became unbelieving; then died. This misnomer puts a nasty spin on John Calvin's idea that if you "repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone... All sins are forgiven past present and future". To make this a theologically correct position, let me ask you if we had any will to repent, or was that an absolute drawing? My point is that "repented" and "faith in" only need to be a present action. A repentented heart will not always repent dozens of years later. Yes, the Holy Spirit will convict us, but it up to us to repent. Again, I only share this with kindness and scriptural proof as well. Did Jesus ever want us or anyone to only do something one time for him?? Or, did He want us to go on living with fruits. Look at what happened to the branch that got cut off from it's one time nurturing; it withered up and dyed,, tossed into flames. Did He actually even ask the two people that gave a lot of their money if that was all of it? They were believers, repenters, but fell short then. Simply put, keep on believing, keep on repenting, keep on praying.

#9
Parker1

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Yes, keep on believing, keep on repenting, keep on praying.That is how you keep receiving the blessings from GOD. As you said, Tinky, "If you have repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone for your salvation, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, are covered by the blood. :heart: " Nothing more is required. Good works are done to show appreciation to GOD for your salvation, not as a means to keep it.

#10
Bold Believer

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Think of it as ULTIMATELY IRRESISTIBLE. A person whom God intends to save may resist, right up until the Holy Spirit enlightens his or her mind to believe, but if God has it in His mind to save that person, they cannot ultimately resist.

#11
gdemoss

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1Jo 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

#12
Butero

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Having read Calvin's views, I don't consider myself a Calvanist. Many things he teaches I don't agree with, but I do believe our being saved or lost is completely in God's control. I didn't use to believe that, but the more I have read the Bible, the more obvious it has become. God knew us before he formed us in the womb, according to Jeremiah. God created Jeremiah to be a prophet. He created Moses to be the deliverer. And then, he created Judas Iscariot to be his betrayer. Did these men have free will? Yes and no. In their way of thinking, of course they did. They got up each morning and made numerous decisions each and every day. At the same time, God made them a certain way, with certain desires, certain ambitions, certain personalities, and he placed them with a certain family in a certain nation, at a particular time where he knew exactly what they would become. In that way, they really had no choice. Take Peter for instance. Remember that question Jesus asked his disciples? He wanted to know who they believed him to be? Peter responded in Matthew 16:16
Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
What did Jesus say to him? Blessed art thou Simon because you chose to believe in me? Of course not. He told him,
Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
If the Father hadn't revealed it to him, he couldn't have believed, just as Judas Iscariot never truly believed. So, where I am coming from is that if you choose to accept Christ as your personal savior, and you die, you shall be saved. There is no question about that. You won't go to hell because you were predestined lost. At the same time, if you were predestined lost, you won't die having been saved. If you do get saved, you will fall away before you die. That is where Paul spoke of the need to make your calling and election sure. We don't have assurance we were chosen to be saved, so we need to walk carefully each and every day down that straight and narrow pathway that leads to the strait gate and eternal life. I don't consider myself a Calvanist because I don't follow Calvin and I don't agree with many things he has to say, but I do believe the Bible and what it teaches about pre-destination and election.

#13
Willamina

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God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

My Baptist pastor used to say that from God's perspective it is foreknowledge and predestination, but from our perspective we
must repent and choose Jesus, which seems to be free will at the time. Later we usually find that God set us up.

Perhaps the answer is that we need fellowship and each others prayers. We need to stay tender to the Lord and not harden our
hearts like the children of Israel did in the wilderness. That means repenting a lot and not resisting His grace.
. Again, it is God Who grants repentance and faith by His grace. So we cling to Him and His grace, our assurance of salvation. We rely on Christ. His Spirit has sealed us and we have many promises that He will keep us.
So it is a which came first, the chicken or the egg, thing. Of course, God came first. It is all His doing.
But I don't believe that God predestined anyone to hell. And I believe that Christ died for the whole world so that believers might be
saved.
The whole thing is dizzying and I don't pretend to completely understand. I just agree to disagree with the tulip people.
The bible says in several places that grace is resistable as in when Jesus ,grieved over Jeruselem, and the afore mentioned stiff necked children in the wilderness thing in Hebrew 3 or 4.
Perhaps according to His foreknowledge He predestins the humble to faith and eternal life. 1 Peter 1:2-5

#14
L10

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God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

My Baptist pastor used to say that from God's perspective it is foreknowledge and predestination, but from our perspective we
must repent and choose Jesus, which seems to be free will at the time. Later we usually find that God set us up.

Perhaps the answer is that we need fellowship and each others prayers. We need to stay tender to the Lord and not harden our
hearts like the children of Israel did in the wilderness. That means repenting a lot and not resisting His grace.
. Again, it is God Who grants repentance and faith by His grace. So we cling to Him and His grace, our assurance of salvation. We rely on Christ. His Spirit has sealed us and we have many promises that He will keep us.
So it is a which came first, the chicken or the egg, thing. Of course, God came first. It is all His doing.
But I don't believe that God predestined anyone to hell. And I believe that Christ died for the whole world so that believers might be
saved.
The whole thing is dizzying and I don't pretend to completely understand. I just agree to disagree with the tulip people.
The bible says in several places that grace is resistable as in when Jesus ,grieved over Jeruselem, and the afore mentioned stiff necked children in the wilderness thing in Hebrew 3 or 4.
Perhaps according to His foreknowledge He predestins the humble to faith and eternal life. 1 Peter 1:2-5

Coming from a Baptist minister; that is pretty free will opinioned. I have also seen it as God knowing who is saved, who is resisting, thus not going to be. We have our own concerns to worry about, and can not fully know all God knows. We must approach things as though a person is not saved, maybe was not fully saved, or is even deceived; this being if they are living way off track. Yes, they can repent, believe. We could argue and circumanavigate this for eons, and opinions are going to vary. I just know that I firmly have seen people that have totally walked away from what appeared to be a very lengthy salvation walk; picked up their cross. Were they saved? I don't know, but I do know they are speaking up for atheists right now. James 5:19 lets us know that we save a sinner from horrible things by putting them back on the path. So, I won't say salvation is absolutely kept, as God does know that. But he also knows what we are not capable of "Were they vainly going thru the salvation things, or for hope". God alone knows. Calvin does not know, and we can't assume to know either. I agree strongly with the above post; keep on believing, Keep on repenting. One repentance, one time believing; not good enough for Jesus Christ; never did he hint to a person to just repent this one time, and believe; thus it will always be done. That is my belief on this, and it sways Arminian. I understand a few of you do not see it this way, but I do respect and love you. Hey, we will do our best to rebuke gently, keep our own cross picked up. And like the broadcasted program/ Be followers, not fans.

#15
L10

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Read the Parable of the sower, and the description of that by Jesus. It shows very clearly that the message not only falls on some and is plucked away very soon, but that many receive it fully, but other things happen. Wonder why that is made such an emphasis. The weeds, the thorns... all sincere troubles for a believer. Yet, I know a strict Calvinist will use their trained understanding to say that those people amongst the weeds or thorns are actually not shown to be saved. Really now, how much of a more clear parable are you going to find?

#16
Parker1

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Those who receive it fully but other things happen - they just fail to mature. They remain "babes," never growing to become useful to the Kingdom.

#17
Butero

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I normally agree with you on most things. I have also studied, and very hard at this very subject. I find a very honest God showing us who He is and what He knows and does not know.


This is the question Brother Mike. Is there anything God doesn't know? When we vote for a person for President, and they turn out to be a dissaster, we are surprised, but when God installs a King, and he turns out bad, was that really a surprise to God? We know God chose people like Jeremiah, Moses, Peter and Paul, to be his servants, but did he choose people to do bad things to bring about his purposes? The more I have read the Bible, the more convinced I am than ever that God is not ever surprised by anything? Yes, he does speak of it repenting him that he made Saul King, but wasn't it his plan to make David King from the beginning, after Saul failed? If there are things God doesn't know the answer to, then I would have to agree that predestination and election in the way I presented it is not true, but I don't think that is the case. I believe God is all knowing, and nothing happens by accident.

#18
His_disciple3

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Could somebody kindly tell me what I am,I excepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour of my life 40 years ago, I don't think I can do anything in my life to separate me from Jesus, nor do I believe that I can do anything to add to my salvation. I have sinned several times since I was born again,but I hope and pray Jesus' blood covered those sines when his Blood cleansed me the first time, 40 years ago.



If you have repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone for your salvation, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, are covered by the blood. :heart:

Tinky, not to get into this too deeply, but if any person in history was once saved, and then became unbelieving; then died. This misnomer puts a nasty spin on John Calvin's idea that if you "repented and placed your faith in Jesus alone... All sins are forgiven past present and future". To make this a theologically correct position, let me ask you if we had any will to repent, or was that an absolute drawing? My point is that "repented" and "faith in" only need to be a present action. A repentented heart will not always repent dozens of years later. Yes, the Holy Spirit will convict us, but it up to us to repent. Again, I only share this with kindness and scriptural proof as well. Did Jesus ever want us or anyone to only do something one time for him?? Or, did He want us to go on living with fruits. Look at what happened to the branch that got cut off from it's one time nurturing; it withered up and dyed,, tossed into flames. Did He actually even ask the two people that gave a lot of their money if that was all of it? They were believers, repenters, but fell short then. Simply put, keep on believing, keep on repenting, keep on praying.


we must live by every Word, being tossed into flames, may not mean hell as you would have us to assume, and as you have clearly stated that you believe being tossed into the flames means hell. another term "to die or death and/or dead, is not always in scpriptures a spiritual death. it can simply mean a physical death, Jesus said that John merely baptised with water, But I will baptize with Fire (this fire is not hell). scriptures says that our works are tried by Fire, the good works are brought forth as a reward, the bad ones are burned up, But the man himself is saved this fire is not hell, and concerning death, 1 cor. 5:5 that God will turn us over to satan for the destruction of the flesh(death) that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, so if a Borned again christian turns from God and dies in that state does not mean they were sent to the flames(hell) as you would assume, But that God gave them to satan as He did Job, but with restrictions that satan can destroy the flesh only, But God will save the spirit.


1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

as you should see here that Fire is not alway torment, or Hell as you have assumed in the past, hope this has been a help.

ask yourself a question, for I am not here to judge you. but examine your own Heart, do you really believe that God can save you by grace through FAITH, regardless of who you were or what you have done. if so here is the only difference between me (being OSAS) and you, I believe that God has saved me by grace through FAITH, regardless of who I was and what I have done as well as what I will be and what I will do. your FAITH covers your past sins. My FAITH covers all my sins. another thought you should consider is, In your church how many people are perfect and without sin, now we are not to judge people, but we have to have knowledge of right and wrong so we should judge sin. but with your churches teaching on salvation is based on our remaining perfect, then you have to judged the ones that you know that has slipped and sinned as lost people, your own doctrine goes against judged not least ye be judged by the same condemnation, which is scriptures. Now one more thought I really want you to consider, Have you since coming to the knowledge of God and His grace remained perfect and without sin?
and if your honest answer is no, why would you want to put that yolk or burden on anyone else, to say at least, to make a babe in Christ, think that they can do no wrong, to remain in His mercy and grace? no my friend teach them as I tell you, the Mercy of God endures FOREVER!

#19
His_disciple3

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to the OP and all others who have responded to this post; I am free will but also see election in scriptures. and I have spent countless of hours discussing my side and with scriptures why I believe what i believe, in these Christian forums, But God took me away from these forums for awhile, and as my first post was ready once again armed with scriptures to state why I believe a Sovereign God gave me Choice or Heaven or hell, life or death. then God Spoke with A question, and i leave you (either side of this issue) with the same question God asked me. Does it really matter when God wrote our name, or why He wrote our name, or even how He wrote our name? or should we be saying, God I don't understand when You wrote my name or how you wrote my name, God I don't even understand whY You wrote my name, I am just praising you for writing my name and rejoiceing that my Name is written in heaven!

#20
His_disciple3

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From the foundation of the World is mentioned many times in the NT. It was called a mystery, or something revealed. One has to ask themselves at what period was this? We have to compare each scripture. Did God hand pick everyone from the foundation of the world that would make it, and pick the rest to roast in Hell?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb was not Slain from the foundation of the World. This scripture throws some off. We are missing a comma here but has to be read like the Greek should be read. Those names not written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world who was slain.

We have the book of Life starting from the foundation of the World. So names have been added to that book since the Earth was formed. When though?

1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ;
1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Jesus had been with God from the start, before the creation of the Earth. This does not indicate he died or atoned from anything back then. The scripture said he had only been revealed for our sake during these last days. So any work or help would have come when God sent his son to the Earth. The plan has always been for use to have fellowship with the son, the scripture does not say the plan was that he had to shed his blood, it's just that He did. God made everything for his son, even the Worlds.

(Note: the KVJ mistranslates or does not use the best English word for one Greek word making Jesus the creator in two scriptures, then forgets to stay consistent with Heb 1:2. Other translations do not make this mistake.)

So the plan the whole time was to introduce to the World the Lord Jesus. The only begotten Son of God. Nothing here about picking and choosing people to roast in Hell, or not roast in Hell.


if Scriptures in the KJB states that Jesus is the Creator, and the others ( you should specify which others, so we could know the ones to stay away from ) Then the KJB is only confirming what the Old testament teaches, The Holy Trinity, is found in the first three verses of the Holy Scriptures, God the Father created the heaven and the earth

side note: one can also know that they have a true translation by checking the very first verse in scriptures, For God can not lie, so thus if a translation says "Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and earth, then that is a bad translation, For God created the Heaven and earth, then later created the other two heavens as explained in scriptures, if a translations says heavens it is a lie, and we all know that a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, so if you start with a lie, you are off to a bad start concerning a translation that is inspired by God.

now back to the Holy Trinity, and His Spirit moved acoss the waters ( this is the God the Holy Spirit) then God said let there be light( this is not the sun, it was not created until later as well, but this Light was God the Son, which was not created Himself at this time, however was made light of the World, and then this verse alone would make a translation wrong if that translation denies Jesus as creator, For God said "LET US" make man, if your suggested translation denies Jesus as Creator then You may have a tough time proving who "US" is from scriptures, but I can say from scriptures that "US" is the three beings mentioned in the first three verses of scriptures as One God, all having a part in Creation,

so thus one can only conclude that, if the New Testament in the KJB is going hand and hand/ confirming Old testament , then this would be a good translation, where as your so called correct New testament translation would be proven to contradict, the old testament, so which should we recommend the Word confirming it self, or the word contradicting itself, to be a better translation, oh and as far as your greek confirming your new testament there was several greek texts as well, and not all were, should we say inspired by God

Edited by His_disciple3, 26 January 2013 - 01:24 AM.





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