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no throwing stones by my TULIP friends, please...

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#21
L10

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I find the last couple posts interesting, and will only interject a few things at moment. Not sure if the KJB is supposed to mean the KJV, but thinking that is the case. I have noted that the KJV has a few issues, namely with word understanding, even for a scholar. It also has a few areas of concern regarding the earliest manuscripts being exempt; I suppose this is a positive for a KJV only person though. I have been exploring the mutt of all the translations, from formal equivalence ESB thru optimal equivalence Holman, NIV, and even some dynamic equivalent versions. These are an easy read, but many times use the thought phrase primary to the word used.
Any case, not sure that being humbly grateful for being written in God's book of life is suffice for all answers to this. The main reason is that so many Calvinists just attack away at anyone that believes security is conditional upon the persons actual state of being a believer at the time. It also falls right into the situation of irresistible grace also.

Not to switch the direction you guys have gone, but it would be important to know somewhat what is meant by this. Is it possible for any Christian to walk away from a faith that was once current, or has it EVER happened before.
I have read some wonderful explanations for this, and the least not being that salvation was not irresistible before, what makes it such after?

Anyways, I am not as set on saying that Arminian theology is perfect, not nearly as much as sharing the problems with 5 point Calvinism. I have personally seen the conundrum, and that makes things so much harder for me.

In my nearly 50 years of life I have seen a few amazing Christians totally walk away from their Jesus talk, their Bible,and even go into cult directions. One friend whom I looked up to shared this with me when we became facebook friends. And, not so sure anyone could say that this guy was not saved at the time. He was a OSAS baptist at one point.
More rancid in my sight has been the suicide decrees. I have been the person that has saved two of my dear friends, and it is tough. I have also been the person that has heard the cries of a OSAS friend (once saved always saved), and this person believed that God was going to fully understand their suicide, for they were secure in eternity. It went much deeper, but namely it also involved some sins to get it to that point. So, what is the state. What is the perfection needed? So much to discuss. It is only my opinion, and I pray it is not just a pride opinion~ I believe that God fully knows who will be saved. I believe He knows who will walk away from Him, yet we have no way of labeling this persona as once saved, or never saved. That is a conundrum for my Calvinist friends for they promised the person that shared Jesus as the only savior was guaranteed salvation. What were they saying later?? "They could not have truly been saved".

So, not to throw stones back at my Calvinist friends, but it does get old being told to repent or I am going to Hell. Being told that I am saying that my works need part of my salvation. I never said this, yet because I shared that fruits would be obvious, it gave this guy the path to march all over me. I forgive this last person; and their platform is even rather impressive (standing up for right to life; teaching systematic theology), and a few other things. It is also a disgusting thing to sense the horrible pride of being great in his stance. His facebook class was given questions about why Jesus came, and it was like the legalist/strict 1st grade teacher smacking down all the participants. I was not one, but observing. I only became the topic of conversation in his group. So, now this guy goes outside many Churches and stands on a platform and does the shock preaching. Yes, he brings up the gospel at times, but the main notation I have seen on youbube is the constant drive to knock down anyone else, and knock them hard. They go to Nazarene Churches, Arminian, Pentecostal, and many Catholic Churches.

Ok, I went on that enough. I had to unfriend and block the gentleman from that social network, and let him know that if he libles or slanders me one more time, I will also bring this up to his Seminary school of past. He finally laid off. He finally quit treating me like the horrible stench that I can be on occasion. He kept one of my friends under his arms though, and is taking him to New Orleans next week. That friend has recently needed to have his wife admitted into a place of rest (humble phrasing). So much to tend to in his life, and yet the shock preaching is his new baby. I hope he wins people to Jesus, as He is a good guy. I just hope he does not follow every little move that his 5 point leader is pushing him on. I won't give the name, but he is fairly prominent.

Yes, emotional situations can get us on guard more. Also can make us say too much, listen too little. Forgive me for this at this present time. I love many Calvinists, but I believe I will abandon the Churches that teach this doctrine as the neccessity. Pretty brutal eh?

#22
His_disciple3

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I find the last couple posts interesting, and will only interject a few things at moment. Not sure if the KJB is supposed to mean the KJV, but thinking that is the case. I have noted that the KJV has a few issues, namely with word understanding, even for a scholar. It also has a few areas of concern regarding the earliest manuscripts being exempt; I suppose this is a positive for a KJV only person though. I have been exploring the mutt of all the translations, from formal equivalence ESB thru optimal equivalence Holman, NIV, and even some dynamic equivalent versions. These are an easy read, but many times use the thought phrase primary to the word used.
Any case, not sure that being humbly grateful for being written in God's book of life is suffice for all answers to this. The main reason is that so many Calvinists just attack away at anyone that believes security is conditional upon the persons actual state of being a believer at the time. It also falls right into the situation of irresistible grace also.

if you are accusing the 400 year old Holy Word of God, of errors please specify which you would think to be errors so that that we could show if not you, but others that your accusations may be where the errors lay, instead of the KJB
as far as the earliest manuscripts being exempt, you should realy do a study on those dead sea scrolls, before you praise them. the first person that the dead sea scrolls were offered to after they were found, decline to purchase them saying that the poor condition that they were in, made them worthless, there are plenty of web sites that will show pictures of the dead sea scolls, with large portions of scrolls missing. so the translators had to use other manuscripts to fill in the gaps due to the poor condition of the dead sea scrolls and some of those manuscripts, being corrupted themselves, goes back to scriptures " alittle leaven will leaven the whole lump"

Posted Image

above is a picture of a portion of the dead sea scrolls
picture provided from:

http://en.wikipedia....ead_Sea_scrolls

Edited by His_disciple3, 26 January 2013 - 10:33 AM.


#23
FresnoJoe

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I find the last couple posts interesting, and will only interject a few things at moment. Not sure if the KJB is supposed to mean the KJV, but thinking that is the case. I have noted that the KJV has a few issues, namely with word understanding, even for a scholar.


:)

Even As A Youth It Was Clear To Me, You See

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

http://www.worthychr...11#entry1423411

And Although I Drink In The Word Of God I Try To Avoid The Philosophies Of Men (Tulips, Daisies And Such)

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

And Always Try To Encourage The Dear Folk Found Here And There

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

To Turn To Jesus The Christ The LORD

Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. Jeremiah 3:22

To Yeshua Our God

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.


And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

#24
Mcgyver

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side note: one can also know that they have a true translation by checking the very first verse in scriptures, For God can not lie, so thus if a translation says "Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and earth, then that is a bad translation, For God created the Heaven and earth, then later created the other two heavens as explained in scriptures, if a translations says heavens it is a lie, and we all know that a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, so if you start with a lie, you are off to a bad start concerning a translation that is inspired by God.


Before this turns into a KJV primacy thread...I felt compelled to point something out here...

In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew word translated as heaven/heavens is (the transliterated) shamayim <Strongs #8064> or Samayim...same word, different transliteration.

Although Strong translates this word as "Heaven" (singular), I would point out that the ending "im" on a Hebrew word is precisely the same as putting an "s" on an English word. It makes the word plural...so a better translation of Gen 1:1 is "Heavens" (plural).

Just a side note.

#25
His_disciple3

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side note: one can also know that they have a true translation by checking the very first verse in scriptures, For God can not lie, so thus if a translation says "Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and earth, then that is a bad translation, For God created the Heaven and earth, then later created the other two heavens as explained in scriptures, if a translations says heavens it is a lie, and we all know that a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, so if you start with a lie, you are off to a bad start concerning a translation that is inspired by God.


Before this turns into a KJV primacy thread...I felt compelled to point something out here...

In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew word translated as heaven/heavens is (the transliterated) shamayim <Strongs #8064> or Samayim...same word, different transliteration.

Although Strong translates this word as "Heaven" (singular), I would point out that the ending "im" on a Hebrew word is precisely the same as putting an "s" on an English word. It makes the word plural...so a better translation of Gen 1:1 is "Heavens" (plural).

Just a side note.


if the Hebrew word is either singular or plural than the translator could choose either, and be right now couldn't they? but seeing that the other two heavens were created after verse one then the proper translation for Genesis 1:1 should and is "Heaven" heavenS would be a mistranslation seeing that scriptures tell for the other two heavens were created after verse 1

H8064




שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim,
shaw-meh'

The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

#26
Mcgyver

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Well, to avoid derailing the thread...I'll just let it lie fallow....

#27
OneLight

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Please do not turn this thread into the never ending debate about which bible is the best.

#28
L10

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I find the last couple posts interesting, and will only interject a few things at moment. Not sure if the KJB is supposed to mean the KJV, but thinking that is the case. I have noted that the KJV has a few issues, namely with word understanding, even for a scholar. It also has a few areas of concern regarding the earliest manuscripts being exempt; I suppose this is a positive for a KJV only person though. I have been exploring the mutt of all the translations, from formal equivalence ESB thru optimal equivalence Holman, NIV, and even some dynamic equivalent versions. These are an easy read, but many times use the thought phrase primary to the word used.
Any case, not sure that being humbly grateful for being written in God's book of life is suffice for all answers to this. The main reason is that so many Calvinists just attack away at anyone that believes security is conditional upon the persons actual state of being a believer at the time. It also falls right into the situation of irresistible grace also.

if you are accusing the 400 year old Holy Word of God, of errors please specify which you would think to be errors so that that we could show if not you, but others that your accusations may be where the errors lay, instead of the KJB
as far as the earliest manuscripts being exempt, you should realy do a study on those dead sea scrolls, before you praise them. the first person that the dead sea scrolls were offered to after they were found, decline to purchase them saying that the poor condition that they were in, made them worthless, there are plenty of web sites that will show pictures of the dead sea scolls, with large portions of scrolls missing. so the translators had to use other manuscripts to fill in the gaps due to the poor condition of the dead sea scrolls and some of those manuscripts, being corrupted themselves, goes back to scriptures " alittle leaven will leaven the whole lump"

Posted Image

above is a picture of a portion of the dead sea scrolls
picture provided from:

http://en.wikipedia....ead_Sea_scrolls

Well for one, a sincere Calvinist/Theologian name John Ankerberg has even shared a series of volumes that bring up difficulties with the textus receptus, KJV only groups. It is not only the Dead Sea Scroll, rather many things that came to be since the 1611 publishing. It is noted with scholars and KJV proponents that the original version had numerous mistakes. These are easy to view by simply looking at a NKV or a new KJV and viewing it cross linear with a KJV~1611. Many changes made.

I am speaking the the Greek texts that bring much more to the absolute authority of Jesus being God. I can not recite the numbers right now, but the KJV is many times more vague on these things, and the newer translations show that Jesus is God a dozen or so places where the old KJV does not. I will give you a list of words from the KJV, and we can all try to define what the word means. I would say it may be a mild cheat to use an online dictionary, but feel free to anyways. I will suspect that not one person will be able to even come up with what 80% of the words mean. That is sorta sad, yet these very words are in the KJV.

That is when English to English is even worse than Greek to English.

I do enjoy the KJV as a read, and as an authority. I just will not be a KJV only person. Many become KJV only, and they believe everything else is corrupt. Was there sincerely something significant and blessed about the KJV? Was the translation team perfect?
Did it even show numerous errors? The answer to those last few questions is yes.

I am also aware of some very wonderful Christians that only like the KJV, for they grew up with it, learned to understand some of those words I was speaking of. I understand the delight of staying with what brought you joy. I also enjoyed my first calculator, but it is not nearly as good as my most recent 1 dollar calculator.

Textus Receptus, Wescott/ Hort, Nestle/ Aland, and numerous others. These are the manuscript formulators we can be speaking of. Is the Latin Vulgate the perfect one?

#29
Butero

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side note: one can also know that they have a true translation by checking the very first verse in scriptures, For God can not lie, so thus if a translation says "Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and earth, then that is a bad translation, For God created the Heaven and earth, then later created the other two heavens as explained in scriptures, if a translations says heavens it is a lie, and we all know that a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, so if you start with a lie, you are off to a bad start concerning a translation that is inspired by God.


Before this turns into a KJV primacy thread...I felt compelled to point something out here...

In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew word translated as heaven/heavens is (the transliterated) shamayim <Strongs #8064> or Samayim...same word, different transliteration.

Although Strong translates this word as "Heaven" (singular), I would point out that the ending "im" on a Hebrew word is precisely the same as putting an "s" on an English word. It makes the word plural...so a better translation of Gen 1:1 is "Heavens" (plural).

Just a side note.

I am KJV only. I don't even pay attention to anything anyone posts from other translations. I always go back and read the KJV Bible before making a reply. Even though that is the case, and even though I will reject any attempts to show errors in the KJV Bible, this thread is not about that. It is about predestination and election, and I don't want to see it turn into a KJV verses new translation thread. I think most of us have drawn our battle lines on this subject? Nothing anyone says is likely to move any of us in either direction. Even so, if someone wants to discuss translations, we would probably do better to start a new thread on that subject, rather than derail this one?

Back on topic. I can see both free will and predestination and election at work. God creates us in a certain way, and puts us in a certain environment. He is all knowing, so of course he knows what we will do, and whether or not we will choose to be saved or not? In that way, you have predestination. If he creates you knowing your final state, you are of course predestined saved or lost. At the same time, you are still making the choices. It is not like you will come to the end of this life and be able to say you are a puppet and God pulled your strings. He did create you in a way where he knew your final destination, and in that way, at the moment you entered his mind, you were either going to be saved or lost, but you still make the decisions in your life. That is why Paul spoke of making your calling and election sure. I have never felt like I can go around sinning feeling like if I do, so what? I had no choice in the matter. Even if I was created a vessel of dishonor, I still am choosing what I do each day. I choose to live for God or to walk after the flesh. This is a tough subject, because it is hard to comprehend how one can be one of the elect or a child of the devil, as Jesus called some of the religious leaders, yet still have free will? The biggest difference between me and most Calvanists I know is that I don't assume we know our outcome? Most Calvanists will tell you that if you have a heart for God, you know you are one of the elect. I believe you have many chances in life to serve God, walk away, and come back again, and it is where you finish the race that matters. You can believe you are one of his now, but walk away in your later years.

#30
Butero

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Please do not turn this thread into the never ending debate about which bible is the best.

This is one time I am going to agree with you.

#31
AlexanderJ

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I use the KJV. I am not so hard on other translations as I use to be, but always study from the KJV

:thumbsup:

I myself use the KJV also. Old English (for me) is more interesting and stimulating than our simplified and boring dialect of English.

#32
L10

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Nice several posts, and very well received. Glad we get the same from varying texts; as it is easy to tell when one goes over the top. Since I did share one important issue about the KJV, that does not slam it, rather challenge the person that longs to study it; allow me to share some of the words that I doubt many will be able to define a great many of. Again, this is not to diss the translation team, or even any one of you, but it was in response to one of the posters. I will then immediately follow with the thread topic I began, and thanks for that interception!!!

chambering-
cieled-
clouted upon their feet-
cotes-
suretiship-
sackbut-
scall-
brigandines-
amerce-
crookbackt-
glede-
wen-
nitre-

or words like asmug,neesings, chode, habergeon, aceldama, blains, wot, trow, churl,wimples,
ambassage. "fetched a compass" does not mean to find one, rather to turn around. Try your best on these, as they really challenge me.

Since we have all shared our desired love for God's word, that is most significant.

To make things very simple I will share that God's knowledge of who ends up in Hell is known now. He also knows if someone will abandon the faith, truthfully be saved on their deathbed. I feel it is slightly out of our capacity to share what we know for certain. Not to use Occams razor in a time when it is not needed, but simplicity to know that God knows all; we do not. This does matter. Calvinist 5 pointers seem to grow very passionate at knowing who is elect and even when, yet they say that person was not truly saved at a later time if they become a Muslim. That is the challenge for them.

Again, thanks for entertaining me with your definitions, or at least looking at these KJV words and phrases.

#33
chloe_fantastic

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chambering - sexual immorality; wantonness; fornication; lewdness
http://www.christian...chambering.html

cieled - to cover, refers to the covering or paneling of the inner walls of a house with cedar or other costly wood
http://bibleencyclop....com/ceiled.htm

clouted upon their feet - patched on their feet
http://bible.cc/joshua/9-5.htm

cotes - small sheds or shelters for sheep or birds
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cotes

suretiship - the state of being surety; the obligation of a person to answer for another, and make good any debt or loss which may occur from another's delinquency
http://av1611.com/kj...suretiship.html

sackbut - a Syrian stringed instrument resembling a harp
http://bible.somd.co.../east3177.shtml

scall - a scurf or scabby disorder (as of the scalp).
http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/scall

brigandines - a plate armor, which combines both an element of clothing in the form of jacket and a protective element in the form of metal plates.
http://steel-mastery...igandine-armour

amerce - to punish by a fine imposed arbitrarily at the discretion of the court; to punish by imposing an arbitrary penalty
http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/amerce

crookbackt - hunchbacked; humpback
http://bibleteaching...ishes_Page.html

glede - any of several birds of prey, especially a European kite (Milvus milvus)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glede

wen - a harmless cyst, especially on the scalp or face, containing the fatty secretion of a sebaceous gland
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wen

nitre - sodium carbonate, lye or soda, a substance that sizzles when combined with an acid
http://bibleencyclopedia.com/nitre.htm

Hehe, this was fun. :)




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