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Daniel's 7th week and ministry of Jesus

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#1
joi

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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23
[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:
http://www.baptistbo...hp/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.


Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1
(All scripture from BibleGateway)


I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.

#2
ENOCH2010

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Roy (Retrobyter) can explain the view you mentioned better than anybody I've read on here.

#3
joi

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I look forward to his answer.

#4
Montana Marv

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Joi

Good questions.

No, Chrst did not leave them (House of Israel) or make them desolate. He left them with hope. He made accesss easier to the Father.

Matt 23:27 - 39 will be brought up. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT you were not willing. LOOK your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

This all goes back to Matt 23:13 - Woe, to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrytes. You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Continue on to v. 36.

It is the Pharisees who have made it so hard, they are the ones who have made it desolate by all their rules and regulations. The House of Israel was already in a desolate situation, they were already desolate. Look, your house is left to you desolate. Not by what Christ did, but by what the Pharisees did. This all happened before Christ died on the Cross.

Therefore the "He" who confirms or strengthens a covenant with many for one seven is not refering to Jesus Christ, but someone else in the future. Jesus Christ made no such claim. It is not in Scripture.

Look to Dan 9:24 - Seventy Sevens are decreed. or 70 one sevens are decreed. 7 Sevens, 62 Sevens, and 1 Seven are mentioned in Dan 9. This last one seven is not a split and divided one seven. It is a one seven. Not two half sevens, but a one seven which has a mid point. It has a start, a mid point and an end. So Scripture says it is a "One Seven"

And no Jesus Christ cannot divide and seperate this one seven into two halves, which become split and thus a divided in time two halves on a one sevens. It cannot happen, for Scripture states that is a "One Seven" a Whole One Seven. So either this last One Seven is past and completed. or this last One Seven is yet to be fulfilled.

In Christ
Montana Marv

#5
MorningGlory

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Maybe I'm just missing something here but what is the 'seventh week of Daniel'? Do you mean the seventieth week? I'm lost......... :confused:

#6
joi

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Maybe I'm just missing something here but what is the 'seventh week of Daniel'? Do you mean the seventieth week? I'm lost......... :confused:


I must have been lost to when I typed in seventh!

#7
yono

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I think Jesus' ministry was fulfilled halfway through that final week, at at the 3.5 mark. I would ascribe the remainder of the week to the time between the advents.

#8
Retrobyter

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Shalom, joi.

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23
[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:
http://www.baptistbo...hp/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.


Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1
(All scripture from BibleGateway)


I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.


I absolutely believe that this is true. Yeshua`s (Jesus') "ministry" was actually His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews. Just as David before Him, He was to be accepted as King of Y'hudah (Judah) or "King of the Jews" before becoming King of Isra'el. Eventually, He will also become the King of Kings, a title for an emperor such as that declared by Nebuchadnezzar. He extended His hand to the Jews and the elders of that tribe, the P'rushiym (Pharisees) and Ts'dukiym (Sadducees), as well as the Cohaniym (the Priests), slapped His hand away! Only the children and His disciples welcomed Him when He rode into Yerushalayim upon that foal of a donkey.

I've discussed this at length before, but the "he" of Dani'el 9:27 CANNOT refer to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 because, in the KJV English translation, the "prince that shall come" is the object of a preposition.

I understand the rule of grammar that says, "Pronouns refer us back to the closest previous noun." Some feel that the “he” of verse 27, being a personal pronoun, refers to the closest previous personal noun, in this case the “ruler who will come,” but one also needs to understand the rule of grammar about prepositional phrases. When a prepositional phrase is used in a sentence, the phrase itself can act as an adjective or an adverb, but the individual words within the phrase CANNOT participate directly in the basic structure of the sentence. The object of the preposition cannot be the subject nor can a verb included in the prepositional phrase as part of the object be the predicate of the sentence. The individual parts within a phrase or clause do not participate directly within the fundamental sentence. As such, the pronoun "he," which is the subject of the very next sentence, CANNOT refer to the object of the preposition in the prepositional phrase "of the prince that shall come." Break down the sentence in verse 26 or diagram it to help you understand this:

Dani'el 9:26
26 And ---------------------------------conjunction
after threescore and two weeks -prepositional phrase
shall -------------------------------------helping verb
Messiah --------------------------------subject
be cut -----------------------------------helping verb/verb = predicate
off, ---------------------------------------adverb
but ---------------------------------------conjunction
not ---------------------------------------adverb
for himself: ----------------------------adverbial prepositional phrase
and --------------------------------------conjunction
the ---------------------------------------definite article adjective
people ----------------------------------subject
of the prince that shall come -----prepositional phrase with embedded clause
shall destroy --------------------------helping verb/verb = predicate
the --------------------------------------article adjective
city --------------------------------------direct object
and -------------------------------------conjunction
the --------------------------------------definite article adjective
sanctuary; ----------------------------direct object
and -------------------------------------conjunction
the --------------------------------------definite article adjective
end -------------------------------------subject
thereof ---------------------------------adjective
shall be --------------------------------helping verb/intransitive verb = predicate
with a flood, --------------------------prepositional phrase
and -------------------------------------conjunction
unto the end -------------------------prepositional phrase
of the war -----------------------------prepositional phrase
desolations ---------------------------subject
are determined.----------------------helping verb/reflexive verb = predicate.
KJV

Thus, the noun associated with the personal pronoun "he" should go back to the nearest, singular, personal subject or direct object within the previous sentence. That would be the "Messiah."

This also works out the same in Hebrew. The Hebrew does not have the "prepositional phrase," but it DOES have what is known as a "noun construct state," which we frequently translate with prepositional phrases.

For instance, if a construct state is "been haa'iysh," translated as "the son of the man" or "the man's son," used in a sentence, and the next sentence begins with a verb that implies a singular subject such that we would translate it with a beginning pronoun, "he," that "he" would refer to "been" NOT "haa'iysh!" The "he" would have as its antecedent "the son," NOT "the man!"

The construct state in verse 26 is "`am naagiyd habaa'," which is translated "the people of the prince that shall come." The word "`am," "the people," could be the antecedent for some future pronoun, but not "naagiyd," "of the prince." In Hebrew, just as in the English translation, the reader must go back farther to find the antecedent, back to "Maashiyach," "Messiah."

Now, look at verse 27:

Dani'el 9:27
27 V'higbiyr briyt laarabiym shaavuwa` echaad: Vachatsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zebach uwminchaah: V`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al shomeem:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh (transliterated)

27 V'higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
briyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = Seven
echaad: = one:
Vachatsiy = And-in-middle-of-it
hashaavuwa` = the-Seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-stop
zebach = sacrifice
uwminchaah: = and-gift:
V`al = And-against
knaf = a-spread-out-wing
shiquwtsiym = of-abominations
mshomeem = he-shall-desolate-it
v`ad = also-until
kaalaah = (the)-end:
vnecheraatsaah = And-the-sentence
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al = against
shomeem: = (the)-desolate:

The covenant that He strengthened was not the Old Covenant nor was it the New Covenant. It was the DAVIDIC Covenant! And, all Yeshua` had to do to strengthen that covenant was to FULFILL SCRIPTURE! He was already called the "King of the Jews" by the Magi shortly after His birth, and when He submitted Himself to be baptized by Yochanan (John), notice what He said to Yochanan:

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV


Most Christians do not understand the importance of what God said about His Son, here! It was MORE than just acknowledging Yeshua` as His Son! It was ALSO the fulfillment of Scripture:

1 Chronicles 22:8-10
8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
KJV


1 Chronicles 28:6-9
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the Lord, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the Lord your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
KJV


Hosea 11:1
1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
KJV


Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
KJV


Psalm 89:1-4, 20-37
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
...

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV


So, when God said, "This is my beloved Son," He was confirming - strengthening - the Covenant that He had made with David and with His seed (Yeshua`) forever!

And, yes, you are right that Yeshua` stopped the sacrifice and the gift when He died upon the cross. Some think that because the priests continued to perform the sacrifice rituals that they didn't end, but one must ask the question, "Who determines if a slaughtering is an acceptable sacrifice?" Wouldn't the answer to that question be GOD?! And, God was no longer accepting animal sacrifices after His Son's death:

Hebrews 10:3-22
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV


Matthew 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV


Gavri'el (Gabriel) said that this happened in the MIDDLE of the Seven!

Finally, Matthew 23 gives us the rest:

First, He bawls out the Pharisees and the scribes (transcribers of the Tanakh), who generally consisted of the priests; then He pronounces doom on them:

Matt 23:13-39
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV


There IS a ray of sunlight at the end; He said that they would no longer see Him UNTIL they shall say, "Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH," because this last phrase, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV


It literally translates to "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH." And, it is hard for them to bless Him "out of the house of the LORD" if there IS no "house of the LORD" or a "Temple!"

However, this has not happened, YET! So, they are enduring the desolation until the whole amount of what was "determined against them" has been poured out on them. But, it may end soon! The Jews are coming to their Messiah by the thousands, even as we write!

#9
Retrobyter

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Shalom, Danielzk.

If you read and accept the entirety of the scripture verse it is CLEAR that the prince in Daniel 9:26 is NOT Jesus ,,

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is cutoff (put to death) but not for himself...but for those he came to save !

the prince that shall come does what ?? "will destroy the city and the sanctuary."
He sends out the order to DESTROY the city and the temple ,, Jesus will Not do such a thing , therefore no matter the grammer; it is not feasible to say that the ruler/prince could be Jesus simply because of what that ruler /prince does ...


You've misunderstood me. I've NEVER said that Yeshua` (Jesus) was the "prince that shall come!" Nor, do I deny that there would be a "prince that shall come." However, that "prince" was a Roman! And, the PEOPLE of the prince, the Romans, are the ones who destroy the city and the sanctuary!

The "he" of verse 27 is NOT CONNECTED to the "prince that shall come" AT ALL! REMOVE the prepositional phrase before making the connection! The verb "shall destroy" is connected to "people," not the "prince!" Time to go back to some basic English grammar?

Daniel 9
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

That does not happen to Jesus!

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

to confirm also means to ratify , designate and various other definitions , he may also partake in the writing of the covenant


"And one who causes desolation will place abominations on a wing of the Temple until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:27)

It will be a human who erects something in the Temple of God that will then have been built.


Be careful which version you use. Some, like the NIV and Today's NIV, give you a translator's OPINION of what he THINKS the verse means instead of simply translating the verse directly. That's a dangerous practice because it leads so many people astray!

Again, HERE is the Hebrew text that is translated so many ways into English:

Dani'el 9:27
27 V'higbiyr briyt laarabiym shaavuwa` echaad: Vachatsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zebach uwminchaah: V`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al shomeem:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh (transliterated)

27 V'higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
briyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = Seven
echaad: = one:
Vachatsiy = And-in-middle-of-it
hashaavuwa` = the-Seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-stop
zebach = sacrifice
uwminchaah: = and-gift:
V`al = And-against
knaf = a-spread-out-wing
shiquwtsiym = of-abominations
mshomeem = he-shall-desolate-it
v`ad = also-until
kaalaah = (the)-end:
vnecheraatsaah = And-the-sentence
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al = against
shomeem: = (the)-desolate:

Show me where the word "temple" is in this verse! IT'S NOT THERE! What you have quoted is more of a COMMENTARY, not a TRANSLATION!

(Matthew 24:15-22)

15 "So when you see standing in the Holy Place "the abomination that causes desolation," spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand -
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Jesus says flee to the mountains or face death at the hands of the person who causes the abomination that makes desolate because it is NOT Jesus who causes it .. and this happens at Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the 70th week of Daniels prophetic 70th week ,


The believing Jews ALREADY DID FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS back in 66-67 A.D! And, what good would it do today with modern warfare techniques?! Anyway, it was NOT Yeshua` from whom they had to flee; it was the ROMANS who were attacking! All Yeshua` did was to LEAVE THEM DESOLATE, which He did! (See Matthew 23:37-39.)

He, the ruler/prince, will defile the Temple just before the Return of Jesus Christ.
"He opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's Temple, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

He will claim to be not just a god, but God. He will establish himself in God's Temple which he will claim as his own temple
"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders." (2 Thessalonians 2:9)

He will have supernatural powers, from Satan, that will enable him to deceive and conquer.


Hmmph! You're simply spouting rhetoric. You're giving me a series of pat answers and theological fiction for which there is no direct proof. These are your INTERPRETATIONS of 2 Thessalonians 2! Also, I didn't say there wouldn't be such a man in the future. Somebody DOES fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2, but that person is NOT talked about in Dani'el 9:24-27 nor is he mentioned in Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse!

There is absolutely nothing more abominable in the sight of God than a mere human claiming to be a god, let alone the true God. It is the absolute, ultimate blasphemy.

It really does not fit the scripture to say that the prince is a good guy , and definately not Christ Jesus .


Again, I never said the prince is a "good guy," let alone Yeshua`! Get your facts straight! Secondly, oh really? There's nothing more abominable in the sight of God than a mere human claiming to be a god? What about REFUSING TO ACCEPT AND REJECTING HIS SON?! Read Matthew 23! THOSE are the "abominations that were spread out like a wing!"

#10
joi

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Thank you Retrobyter.

#11
Montana Marv

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Roy

You need to look into manuscripts.

Here is just a short writing from Adam Clarks Commentary;

Quote: The Vulgate reads, Et erit in templo abominatio, "And in the temple there shall be abomination."

The Septuagint, kai epi to ieron bdelugma twn erhmwsewn, "And upon the temple there shall be the abomination of desolation."

So Dan 9:27 does mention "temple" It is also comfirmed by what Jesus says in Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken through the prophet Daniel (9:27). The holy place is within the temple.

So Jesus did not leave Israel desolate when He died on the Cross. Israel was already desolate by what the Pharasees taught. The 70th Week has not started.

In Christ
Montana Marv

#12
Bluefinger

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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23
[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:
http://www.baptistbo...hp/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.


Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1
(All scripture from BibleGateway)


I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.


Hi joi,

I'm new here, but I wanted to offer a slightly modified view from what retro offered. Retro says that the 'he' of vs. 27 cannot be the prince that shall come. But I ask this question: "Where in Daniel 9 did it mentioned anyone other than the Messiah before that?" In Retro's case, Daniel just forces in a character that was not previously described to him as though he understood quite well who it was. In the case of my argument, the Messiah is the prince who shall come. And I will defend that argument.

To start, I want to offer up Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14.

"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast." But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, "The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find." And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, "Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?" And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, "Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:1-14 ESV)"

Notice in the passage that the king, whom is obviously God, sends HIS troops to destroy the city, which is obviously Jerusalem. Then every other nation and city is invited to the wedding feast, which is the kingdom of God; or the Abrahamic Covenant. I want to bring up another parable:

""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:33-36, 38-45 ESV)

In a nutshell, Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was going to be taken away from the Jews and be given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles would be blessed because of His servants. So, the Romans were the people of the Messiah. I know it sounds outrageous, but its true.

In the Middle East, when a king such as Nebuchadnezzar would set his image or ensign in a place he conquered, it meant that the dominion belonged to him. In the same way, when the first disciples were persecuted, they established churches in every place they fled to. This was Jesus setting up His ensign. This is even confirmed in Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..." So every nation that the church was established became the nation of God and His Son. But it was not so with Jerusalem. Jesus said to His disciples: "You are the salt of the earth. If the earth loses its saltiness, what good is it but to be trampled underfoot?" So, like when Sodom was only destroyed after Lot fled, Jerusalem was destroyed only after the disciples fled.

And one more thing about the seventieth week: The covenant that Jesus confirmed with many was the Abrahamic Covenant. And the many were the Gentiles. That is consistent in the parables and all throughout the Gospel. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would make Abraham's seed countless. In Revelation 7:9-10, we see that was fulfilled among the Gentiles. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would bless all families of the earth through him, and we find that fulfilled to this day among the many nations that are blessed because of the saints among the Gentiles.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." (Romans 10:12 ESV)

I know this post has been long. I just wanted to adequately defend my argument. Daniel 9:26 shows that the Messiah would be rejected and that God would send the Romans to destroy the city and sanctuary, which was fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 indicates that the Messiah would take the Abrahamic Covenant away from many of the Jews and give it to the Gentiles. That happened when the disciples were chased out of Jerusalem. From that point on, Jerusalem had 3.5 years left. During that time, Jerusalem would become a beacon for every wicked criminal, which Flavius Josephus records was fulfilled with John of Gischala. The war on Jerusalem lasted from 66 CE to 70 CE, approximately 3.5 years.

Edited by Bluefinger, 31 January 2013 - 12:08 AM.


#13
Retrobyter

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Shalom, joi.

Thank you Retrobyter.


You're welcome.

To the rest,...

Sorry, guys, but I'm going to bed. You weary me with the constant repeating of points we've already gone over.

#14
firestormx

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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23
[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:
http://www.baptistbo...hp/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.


Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1
(All scripture from BibleGateway)


I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.


I believe as some others here do that the person in daniel 9:27 is not Jesus. Also to say that it is, would be taking scripture out of context. We must look at all of scripture. Let me use another part of scripture to make my point.



Daniel 11:21-45 (KJV)


21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I know this is alot, but I believe it's needed to understand daniel 9:26-27. These scriptures, espcially the bolded parts are talking about the same time period as daniel 9:27. As you read the text it is clear ( verses 22-23 for example ), that the behavior of the person who makes and breaks the covenant is not that of Christ. This person does things Christ would not do. I figured I would share these verses hoping it would add to the conversation.

May God bless you all

Firestormx

#15
Montana Marv

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ
Montana Marv

#16
Bluefinger

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ
Montana Marv


I would like to point out that Daniel 11 is focused on kings that would rule Jerusalem. Control over Jerusalem went from Persia to Greece. From Greece, the control went to Egypt first (king of the South) then Syria (king of the North.) Focusing still on Jerusalem, we see that, after Antiochus IV, the Romans began to hit the scene. They took over Jerusalem not long after Syria lost control and gave the kingship to Herod. Herod died in Jerusalem not long after Jesus, the true king, came. Herod's rule (through his seed) lasted until Jerusalem was handed over to be destroyed (the great trial that caused Michael to stand up.)

#17
firestormx

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ
Montana Marv


I disagree with you. I think to say that it is not talking about the end is a serious misreading of scripture. Verse 35 talks about the end. Verse 31 talks about the abomination that causes desolation and verse 22 calls this person the prince of the covenant, which is the anti-christ. There is no seperation in who the person is from verse 35 to verse 36. I disagree

#18
MorningGlory

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Maybe I'm just missing something here but what is the 'seventh week of Daniel'? Do you mean the seventieth week? I'm lost......... :confused:


I must have been lost to when I typed in seventh!



Good to know; I thought I was the ONLY one who gets lost during a typical day! :mgbowtie:

#19
Retrobyter

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Shalom, firestormx.


Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ
Montana Marv


I disagree with you. I think to say that it is not talking about the end is a serious misreading of scripture. Verse 35 talks about the end. Verse 31 talks about the abomination that causes desolation and verse 22 calls this person the prince of the covenant, which is the anti-christ. There is no seperation in who the person is from verse 35 to verse 36. I disagree


Ever hear the statement, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Well, there's an axiom to this postulate: "When it comes to understanding prophecy, those who don't learn from history are doomed to THINK that we must repeat it." I would encourage you to read the actual history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes from secular history, Josephus' Antiquities, and some of the Apocryphal books, like Second Esdras and First Maccabees, particularly 1 Mac. 1:54. These works may not be canonical, but one CAN learn about history before making such blunders.

I encourage you to investigate history before thinking that the prophecies of Dani'el 11 aren't already fulfilled. Visit sites like http://www.letgodbet...cy/daniel11.php. Please note that this is NOT my website, nor am I in any way endorsing all that you will find there; however, they have an excellent, very detailed review on how history has already fulfilled the prophecies of Dani'el 11.

And for those who think that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was an "antetype" of the "Antichrist," what good is a prophecy that could have more than one fulfillment?! How does one know if THIS "fulfillment" is THE "fulfillment" for which the prophecy was written?! NO! Any prophecy of Scripture MUST have EXACTLY ONE fulfillment, or the prophecy is no better than those of Jeanne Dixon or Nostradamus! The ONLY exception (which is not truly an exception) is in the case of "double reference"; i.e., a prophecy in which PART of the prophecy is fulfilled EXACTLY ONCE at one point in history while the rest of the prophecy is fulfilled EXACTLY ONCE at some other time in history.

In the book, Bible Prophecy for Blockheads, Douglas Connelly says on page 33, ...

"Techno-Speak: Double Reference
The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming."

That's not the same as saying that the verses about the "abomination" in Dani'el 11:31 can be fulfilled by both Antiochus IV Epiphanes and a future Antichrist! Sorry, it's one or the other, and Antiochus DID already fulfill this passage!

#20
Retrobyter

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Shalom, Montana Marv.

Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ
Montana Marv


I would also encourage YOU to continue investigating history and see that Herod the Great and Caesar Augustus fulfilled the rest of Dani'el 11, namely verses 36-45. You should go to the same website about which I just told Firestormx. If you can read it with an open mind and take the time to check the facts, you might just change your stance on verses 36-45!




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