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Boy Scouts Ending Gay Ban

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#41
FresnoJoe

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I don't believe any single adult should take children on sleepovers...there should be 2. As for Den Mothers I have a different opinion than most. I believe boy scouts should be for males only. I also don't agree with unmarried men living with a woman leading scouts...but my opinions normally get me into trouble.


I Find Your Opinions Both Interesting And At Times Provocative

Keep On Keeping One
And Post Early, Post Often


Love, Your Brother Joe

#42
Bold Believer

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The worries people express here would be a lot more interesting if they were rooted in empirical facts. Is there any evidence that having homosexuals would actually introduce risk to the boys involved, more than the risk that heterosexuals introduce? It seems like, at the risk of drawing conclusions from anecdotes, that every time I hear about a specific case of child molestation some straight guy is responsible. Last time I heard about someone I knew being this sort of monster he was married with children.


Man...that is an absolute crock of poo. Homosexuals recruit middle teen aged boys into the lifestyle. Even allowing young men to be around known practicing homosexuals is asking for trouble, Just because a known homosexual doesn't prefer young boys, it doesn't mean that they aren't observing them for signs that they might be susceptible to the lifestyle itself. Some kid maybe glances at another boy too long for some reason, or admires another boy's prowess at a sport, and the next thing you know, Mr. Poofter Scoutmaster may pull said boy aside and "counsel" him that his feelings are normal. Young men of Scouting age are just coming into their manhood and wondering about sexuality in general. Exactly what do you think exposing them to a practicing homo will do?

I for one am sick and tired of you defending that lot and their filth. It seems every time the subject comes up, you're right there to defend them. You seriously need to think before you write anything on the subject.

#43
Bold Believer

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What does the Bible say about men with men or women with women, I seem to remember that it is wrong!!!!!! No ands ifs or buts about it. Black and White NO grey area. Pedophiles are a completely different story they are not sick! They are evil and serving the devil, they made a very bad choice! That is what God has given us Choices and we either follow Gods plan or we follow the devil!!!


It's EVIL. Homosexuality and pedophilia are BOTH EVIL.

#44
FresnoJoe

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And I am convinced that we can defend the Gospel using logical thinking.


Jesus never had to. He just used scripture, to believer and unbeliever alike. This is the problem most "scientific","logical thinkers", have, they seem to try and squeeze faith into "logic". It can't be done, and scripture screams at us in the opposite when it comes to faith.


Don't you think that if we are being sincere that we will discover true things either means? This is off Tinky's topic anyway so I'm not sure how much you'd want to pursue this here, but it seems to me like if we think some claim is true then an honest and thorough investigation, using whatever means we know to be reliable should reach the same conclusions, ideally. It doesn't seem to me that it should be 'science VS faith' or 'reason VS faith', but and. Jesus used scripture but He also reasoned with people using observations about the world "consider the lilies of the field". In fact, I think just that consideration, that we can expect to discover true things this way, in itself suggests God's existence and God's guiding hand in nature.

Anyway, if this is derailing I apologize.


The Issue With The Boy Scouts And With Their Mocking Of God's Words

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not,

how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12

Is The Same Issue With Today's "Science' And "Logic"

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay:

for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?

or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it,

He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

For It's Either God's Words Of True

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Or It's Man's Mocking

And they said, There is no hope:

but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jeremiah 18:12

You See

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Science (Fiction) Verses Faith (In Jesus Christ The Creator)

#45
MorningGlory

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The worries people express here would be a lot more interesting if they were rooted in empirical facts. Is there any evidence that having homosexuals would actually introduce risk to the boys involved, more than the risk that heterosexuals introduce? It seems like, at the risk of drawing conclusions from anecdotes, that every time I hear about a specific case of child molestation some straight guy is responsible. Last time I heard about someone I knew being this sort of monster he was married with children.



Temptation is a powerful thing. You don't leave an alcoholic to guard a room full of booze. The Bible makes it clear that those who sin in a certain way, take pleasure in those who sin as they do:


"Although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)


​They cannot help but try to influence those who are the most vulnerable (children) to emulate their perverse lifestyle.


There's no evidence of that. Furthermore, the Boy Scouts has already had plenty of problems with sexual child abuse even with its policy of not allowing homosexuals. Homosexuals manage to be school teachers and be in other positions of influence vis a vis children without pushing their 'lifestyle' and certainly no more than if you have some guy who is a misogynist, or some guy who is a Mormon, or whatever else, as a leader of children influencing them (I mean for the misogynist and the mormon in question to be trying to get children to 'emulate' their positions). It seems like no matter what you are stuck judging on an individual basis, so nothing would change here.


The militant gays push their perverse 'lifestyle' 24/7, my friend. Where have you been for the last two decades? IMO, the ONLY reason a homosexual man wants to be in the BSA is to be where his 'interests' lie. It's not hard to see unless you have a bias.

#46
the_patriot2014

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I dont think all gays are pedofiles, and to suggest such morninglory, isnt an accurate representation. I have had a few friends over the years, who were gay, but would never hurt a child-in fact they were more likely to beat a pedofile to a pulp, then to ever harm a child. There are I think, 2 classes of homosexuals who want into the BSA-the ones who simply want to force others to accept them, and those who, yes, are interested in the boyscouts-perhaps they have an "adopted" child they want to be in the scouts. now thats a whole different topic, but just because they want their kid in the boyscouts, or want to help teach a merit badge, does not mean they have less then wholesome purposes for being there. Dont get me wrong, im against BSA allowing gays in, but I dont hold that just because theyre gay they must be after the kids. That would be a completly untrue, and uneducated, statement.

#47
Guest_ninhao_*

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I assume there are already gay men and boys in the scouts who are secretive.

#48
FresnoJoe

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Fresno

I don't deny that I could be wrong, about just everything in general. Only God has perfect knowledge, knowing every fact. That's certainly true in the sciences as well. It reminds me of one of my favorite passages in my favorite chapter "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." Despite my limitations I can't help but be fascinated by the deep order I perceive in nature. If anything adds to my faith, however I manage to make sense of that term, our ability to use abstract mathematics to so accurately describe the world around us, to make the precise calculations we do, to get what seems to be this insight into the world, does. It's really fantastic and surprising.


:thumbsup:

~

That Marvelous Ability

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:26-27

Is A Gift Reflecting The Creator

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

And Not Fallout From Science So Called

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

Nor From It's Many Pagan Mythological Spinoffs

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:3-6

But Believers Know Better Than To Mock

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: Psalms 8:3-6

For Our God

O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Isaiah 40:9-11

Is An Awesome God

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. Isaiah 40:12-15

#49
gbde90

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Would you leave your child with a Scout master you knew to be an active Mormon?


A Mormon isn't going to physically molest you with his belief.

By the way Tinky, most pedophiles are straight people.


Of course! Just look at the population numbers as it pertains to sexual identity. That doesn't make your case. If the situation were reversed, and there were only between 2% - 5% heterosexuals in America, there would be far more homosexual assaults compared to hetero.


I come from Europe and I live in a country where the vice Kanzler (equivalent to your vice president) is a declared gay. That is, I might perceive the gay problem differently.

I also believe that if we want to make a point against the rampant secularization of our world, we need to use the same weapons of the lost: logic. And I am convinced that we can defend the Gospel using logical thinking.

I don't think that your post goes in that direction, unfortunately. If you think that homosexual men might molest young boys, then we should assume that heterosexual men teachers might molest young girls. The only consequent and safe solution would be to hire asexual teachers, which will be difficult.

Comparing homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous and will not take us anywhere, in my opinion.

And I am convinced that we can defend the Gospel using logical thinking.


Jesus never had to. He just used scripture, to believer and unbeliever alike. This is the problem most "scientific","logical thinkers", have, they seem to try and squeeze faith into "logic". It can't be done, and scripture screams at us in the opposite when it comes to faith.

I come from Europe and I live in a country where the vice Kanzler (equivalent to your vice president) is a declared gay. That is, I might perceive the gay problem differently.


Should you not "perceive" homosexuality from a Christian, scriptural viewpoint, and not because you live is a decidedly secular country with a gay politician? The fact that he is gay, and the country embraces homosexuality, has nothing to do with what the scripture has to say?


And how are you going to witness to the lost, then? I have no idea where you live, and it is entirely possible that in your neighborhood it is possible to win the lost by using scriptures only. But I doubt you would be successful in your souls-winning endeavor where I live. Here atheists have a very high education, they are pretty well-off and, often, they know so much about the Bible as I do. Of course, I can sit down and say that they had it coming, but I don't think I can call myself an evangelical Christian if I am not able to bring to the Lord and save the most challenging cases. Bringing illiterate or defenseless people to the Lord is easy; try to win an academic European atheist if you can. I already brought two of them to the Lord, and my success was due to the deployment of reason and logic. And you can win them using reason, of course! It would be self-defeating to admit that our faith cannot be defended by reason and logic, wouldn't?

Edited by gbde90, 01 February 2013 - 11:17 AM.


#50
chloe_fantastic

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I don't think I can call myself an evangelical Christian if I am not able to bring to the Lord and save the most challenging cases. Bringing illiterate or defenseless people to the Lord is easy; try to win an academic European atheist if you can. I already brought two of them to the Lord, and my success was due to the deployment of reason and logic. And you can win them using reason, of course! It would be self-defeating to admit that our faith cannot be defended by reason and logic, wouldn't?


I think the problem here is thinking we have anything to do with who accepts the Gospel and who rejects it. We're called to preach the Gospel (how the Holy Spirit leads you to do it). However we have no control over what people who hear it are going to do with it.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I would reiterate this sentiment when it comes to witnessing to illiterate versus academic people.Since it's the Holy Spirit who does the work in a sinner's heart to lead them to repentance, the only credit we can take for ourselves is that of simply being willing and obedient enough to be God's mouthpiece,

It isn't our success, but the Holy Spirit's. Now it's completely possible the Holy Spirit led you to use reason and logic to witness to these people, and that's great. I fully believe the Holy Spirit knows how we should approach each person and will tell us how if we listen. Sometimes it is using Scripture. Sometimes it is reason and logic. Sometimes it's simply love and compassion and friendship. However it's done we have to remember the Holy Spirit does the real, inside work. All we are is God's mouthpiece.

#51
gbde90

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I don't think I can call myself an evangelical Christian if I am not able to bring to the Lord and save the most challenging cases. Bringing illiterate or defenseless people to the Lord is easy; try to win an academic European atheist if you can. I already brought two of them to the Lord, and my success was due to the deployment of reason and logic. And you can win them using reason, of course! It would be self-defeating to admit that our faith cannot be defended by reason and logic, wouldn't?


I think the problem here is thinking we have anything to do with who accepts the Gospel and who rejects it. We're called to preach the Gospel (how the Holy Spirit leads you to do it). However we have no control over what people who hear it are going to do with it.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I would reiterate this sentiment when it comes to witnessing to illiterate versus academic people.Since it's the Holy Spirit who does the work in a sinner's heart to lead them to repentance, the only credit we can take for ourselves is that of simply being willing and obedient enough to be God's mouthpiece,

It isn't our success, but the Holy Spirit's. Now it's completely possible the Holy Spirit led you to use reason and logic to witness to these people, and that's great. I fully believe the Holy Spirit knows how we should approach each person and will tell us how if we listen. Sometimes it is using Scripture. Sometimes it is reason and logic. Sometimes it's simply love and compassion and friendship. However it's done we have to remember the Holy Spirit does the real, inside work. All we are is God's mouthpiece.


I think I agree with you. Ever since I was a child I was speaking with the voice of the Holy Spirit: my parents always told me that I was much more inspired than what could be expected from someone my age. Our Lord's goal is motivated by infinite Love, so I think He gives different tongues for different needs. My tongue is reason and logic because He knows I live in a time and place where this is needed most.In Christ Stu

Edited by gbde90, 01 February 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#52
shiloh357

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I dont think all gays are pedofiles, and to suggest such morninglory, isnt an accurate representation.

Morninglory specifically referred to militant gays, not all gays.



I have had a few friends over the years, who were gay, but would never hurt a child-in fact they were more likely to beat a pedofile to a pulp, then to ever harm a child. There are I think, 2 classes of homosexuals who want into the BSA-the ones who simply want to force others to accept them, and those who, yes, are interested in the boyscouts-perhaps they have an "adopted" child they want to be in the scouts. now thats a whole different topic, but just because they want their kid in the boyscouts, or want to help teach a merit badge, does not mean they have less then wholesome purposes for being there. Dont get me wrong, im against BSA allowing gays in, but I dont hold that just because theyre gay they must be after the kids. That would be a completly untrue, and uneducated, statement.

I have known gays who were good people and not pedofiles but they are not the ones trying to get close to young boys by infiltrating every organization where they can find young boys.

#53
MorningGlory

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I dont think all gays are pedofiles, and to suggest such morninglory, isnt an accurate representation

Dont get me wrong, im against BSA allowing gays in, but I dont hold that just because theyre gay they must be after the kids. That would be a completly untrue, and uneducated, statement.


You need to back up and read my post again. I did NOT say all gays are pedofiles.

#54
MorningGlory

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morningglory- I agree with patriot here, and I don't have anything to add to his analysis. I'd just add that's true of gay people I know as well.


You're free to agree with anyone you please but my statement was misread.




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