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The forgiveness of sins

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#1
ecoTramp

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well, guys and gals,

I had a thread that moved onto this topic. I said that Christ did not die for our sins, and the thread was moved to closed, and I was assigned the status of unbeliever in pretty short order. I now see, on consideration, that I need to retract my position, somewhat. I would like to discuss, on this thread, the forgiveness of sins as it affects these areas:

1. The effect our sins have on everyone else. The world's a connected place!
2. The effect our sins have on our own soul.
3. The effect our sins have on our possibility of redemption.
4. The effect our sins have on the redemption process.
5. The effect our sins have on our afterlife.

1. Seems to me that there are obviously sinful acts, like rape, that affect others badly. And less obviously sinful acts, like careless consumerism, that nevertheless cause hardship in other parts of the world, such as child-labour, and even slavery.

2. Seems to me that our sins harden our soul. Take avarice. The more we meanly accumulate, the more we want to meanly accumulate. And this goes for all sorts of sins, such as lust, sloth, envy, and so on.

3. Seems to me, that the deeper we are sunk in sin, the more we need redemption, but the less likely we are to seek it.

4. Seems to me, that as we are redeemed, we find it necessary to face our sinfulness, and repent of it. Repentance is no easy process; it hurts to face the truth about yourself.

5. Seems to me, that the quality of our souls affects the quality of the afterlife we can expect. Mass-murderers, such as Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Pol Pot, etc, are just going to hate being in the presence of God. Other, lesser, criminals, aren't going to like it much, either. Those of us who have lead more or less moral lives, might like it somewhat more. Saints, it goes without saying, will find themselves vindicated, adored, and adoring. Nice work, if you can get it.

So my question to the forum, is this. Assuming the above sketch of the effects of sin is more or less correct, in what area does Jesus' sacrifice make a difference?

Best wishes to everyone, eco.

Edited by ecoTramp, 27 February 2013 - 08:26 AM.


#2
Fez

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So my question to the forum, is this. Assuming the above sketch of the effects of sin is more or less correct, in what area does Jesus' sacrifice make a difference?


You do understand that we serve an impartial God, and to Him sin is sin, no matter how big or small a sin in our eyes? That essentially in God's impartial gaze, there is no "grading" of sin?

#3
He giveth more grace

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Welcome, to the forum, I am sure that someone will come along to address your inquiries, I don't feel led to input right now.

#4
ecoTramp

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So my question to the forum, is this. Assuming the above sketch of the effects of sin is more or less correct, in what area does Jesus' sacrifice make a difference?


You do understand that we serve an impartial God, and to Him sin is sin, no matter how big or small a sin in our eyes? That essentially in God's impartial gaze, there is no "grading" of sin?


No, I don't agree with that. It is a central component of human justice, imperfect as it is, that some crimes are worse than others. The same with sins, it seems to me. There is a matter of both the type of sin, and the extent of sin. I am sure a Just God will be able to make the necessary adjustments to the quality of our afterlives.

#5
He giveth more grace

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No, I don't agree with that. It is a central component of human justice, imperfect as it is, that some crimes are worse than others. The same with sins, it seems to me. There is a matter of both the type of sin, and the extent of sin. I am sure a Just God will be able to make the necessary adjustments to the quality of our afterlives.

Fez is correct, all sin is missing the mark, all sin from a so-call white sin to murder damages our relationship with God and it must be dealt with by the blood or hell.

#6
ecoTramp

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Welcome, to the forum, I am sure that someone will come along to address your inquiries, I don't feel led to input right now.


When you're ready, feel free to input.

Best wishes, eco.

#7
He giveth more grace

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In reality there is only one thing that sends us to eternal flames and that is not coming to Christ and trusting him to be our sin-bearer for us, Christ died on the cross and bore your sins and mine, but all do not come to God by faith to receive the atonement that Christ so freely and willingly died for.

#8
ecoTramp

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No, I don't agree with that. It is a central component of human justice, imperfect as it is, that some crimes are worse than others. The same with sins, it seems to me. There is a matter of both the type of sin, and the extent of sin. I am sure a Just God will be able to make the necessary adjustments to the quality of our afterlives.

Fez is correct, all sin is missing the mark, all sin from a so-call white sin to murder damages our relationship with God and it must be dealt with by the blood or hell.


So would you say, for example, that Hitler's plan to eradicate Jews, known as 'the final solution', is in any way comparable to the loving white lie of a doctor that a mortally wounded patient is not, as far as they need to know, dieing?

All sin is, of course, imperfection. But there are degrees of imperfection. And Justice demands that these degrees are recognised.

Edited by ecoTramp, 27 February 2013 - 09:14 AM.


#9
He giveth more grace

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You're comparing sin and results of sins, apples and oranges.

Yes I am saying that, both are sinister, diabolical, carnal, and demonic.

#10
ecoTramp

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You're comparing sin and results of sins, apples and oranges.

Yes I am saying that, both are sinister, diabolical, carnal, and demonic.


I don't deny that sin is 'A Bad Thing'. But the question I am asking on this thread is, what difference does the crucixion make to our walk with God?

Edited by ecoTramp, 27 February 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#11
He giveth more grace

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Isaiah 59
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The little white lie cost God his only begotten son, the focus is not what we do (ie, sin), but who we are, we are sinners by nature and the fallen nature is which condemn our souls to hell, but Jesus said, I have come that ye may have life and life more abundantly.

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


One doesn't need to do anything to be condemned, just be born, because Adam sins and we were in Adam's loins so sin pasted to us.

#12
ecoTramp

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Isaiah 59
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The little white lie cost God his only begotten son, the focus is not what we do (ie, sin), but who we are, we are sinners by nature and the fallen nature is which condemn our souls to hell, but Jesus said, I have come that ye may have life and life more abundantly.

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

One doesn't need to do anything to be condemned, just be born, because Adam sins and we were in Adam's loins so sin pasted to us.


Yes, let us, when the enquiry gets to difficult for us, abandon reason altogether, and merely quote some random Bible verses.

#13
GoldenEagle

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No, I don't agree with that. It is a central component of human justice, imperfect as it is, that some crimes are worse than others. The same with sins, it seems to me. There is a matter of both the type of sin, and the extent of sin. I am sure a Just God will be able to make the necessary adjustments to the quality of our afterlives.

Fez is correct, all sin is missing the mark, all sin from a so-call white sin to murder damages our relationship with God and it must be dealt with by the blood or hell.


So would you say, for example, that Hitler's plan to eradicate Jews, known as 'the final solution' is in any way comparable to the loving white lie of a doctor that a mortally wounded patient is not, as far as they need to know, dying?

All sin is, of course, imperfection. But there are degrees of imperfection. And Justice demands that these degrees are recognized.


The standard is perfection.

Matt. 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Yet everyone has sinned and falls short of God’s standard – perfection.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Any kind of sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.


So even a white lie is still sin would you agree? The result of sin is death. Yet there is hope in Jesus Christ who offers the free gift of eternal life through faith.

Rom. 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord .

Eph. 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith . And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God , not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


If one confesses Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead the promise is salvation.

Rom. 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



All sin is the same in God’s eyes – eternal separation from God. The consequences of particular sins are different. If I murder someone I will go to jail for life or possibly forfeit my life. If I steal a package of gum from the grocery store the consequence wouldn’t be so severe. Both are wrong. Both are sin. Doing either makes me imperfect before God and in need of an atoning Savior - Jesus Christ.

God bless,
GE

#14
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I don't deny that sin is 'A Bad Thing'. But the question I am asking on this thread is, what difference does the crucixion make to our walk with God?

In the Old Testament a spotless young lamb or goat was sprinkled on the door posts of the homes of the Israeli's in Egypt and whom ever's home the the blood was applied the death angel passed over that home.

When the children of Israel got back into the land of Canaan the high priest was commanded to to make atonement for the house of Israel, a lamb of the first year, without blemish blood was to be drain and the high priest would take the bowl of blood of the innocence lamb and go into the Most Holy place of the tabernacle and dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle the Mercy Seat. Then God's wrath would be held back for that year, this they continuing did year after year.

When John the baptist came preaching in the wilderness he told the crowd there is one coming whose sandal strings I am unworthy to loose. A short time latter he sees Jesus coming to be baptisted and John said to those around him, Behold, the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

Our substitutionary sacrifice had to be without spot, without sin, of which Jesus was. The crucifixion was God providing himself a sacrifice for sin, and when God saw the suffering (agony) of his soul, God was satisfied.

Now 2000 years later whenever a person believes the word of truth, the Gospel of our salvation, God will give that person his own faith, a gift, and at that moment that person is identified with Christ on the cross, when Christ died I died. God gave us a marvelous death whereby we can die to the family of Adam and be born again into the family of Christ.

#15
He giveth more grace

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Welcome to the board, Eco, I love strategy games too.

#16
ecoTramp

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OK, guys, and gals, we've fenced around the theme of this thread, a little, but now I think we ought address ourselves to the OP. If you have a point to make, a perspective to give, a theory to expound, on the topic of 'what difference does the crucifixion make to the effect of our sins' I look forward to it.

Edited by ecoTramp, 27 February 2013 - 10:25 AM.


#17
He giveth more grace

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OK, guys, and gals, we've fenced around the theme of this thread, a little, but now I think we ought address ourselves to the OP. If you have a point to make, a perspective to give, a theory to expound, on the topic of 'what difference does the crucifixion make to the forgiveness of our sins' I look forward to it.

I address your question acutely.

Edited by He giveth more grace, 27 February 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#18
nebula

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I would like to discuss, on this thread, the forgiveness of sins as it affects these areas:

1. The effect our sins have on everyone else. The world's a connected place!
2. The effect our sins have on our own soul.
3. The effect our sins have on our possibility of redemption.
4. The effect our sins have on the redemption process.
5. The effect our sins have on our afterlife.


How about the effect it has on our relationship with God?

After all, the first of the 10 Commandments are about that.

#19
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Yes, let us, when the enquiry gets to difficult for us, abandon reason altogether, and merely quote some random Bible verses.


What is greater... Reason or God's Word (the Bible) to you? At what point does reason fail and faith come into play?

Curious as to your thoughts.

God bless,
GE

#20
OneLight

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We read in scripture the following pertaining to the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 5:30-32
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.


Acts 13:38-39
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 26:12-18
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’


Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Colossians 1:13-14
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

This is the only place we can find forgiveness of sines and the reason why Christ came to this world as a man, to die for the sins of the world.

One more passage for you to consider, John 3:1-21

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”




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