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Once Infallible always Infallible????

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#21
xero

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The idea that a pope could be infallible is proof of mans fallibility.

#22
InHisTime77

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The idea that a pope could be infallible is proof of mans fallibility.


I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that it isn't possible for God to allow a human to teach infallibly?

#23
xero

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What Im saying is that the mere idea of a pope being infallible proves the fallibility of man.

We cant magically make someone infallible because we give them the title of pope and if that were the case then we should all be made pope so the world will be without fallibility.

Im being fascetious with the last sentence but seriously theres no warrant in the Bible for a man to claim he is infallible. God says weve all fallen short of His glory and He is infallible ipso facto were all fallible.

#24
InHisTime77

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What Im saying is that the mere idea of a pope being infallible proves the fallibility of man.

We cant magically make someone infallible because we give them the title of pope and if that were the case then we should all be made pope so the world will be without fallibility.

Im being fascetious with the last sentence but seriously theres no warrant in the Bible for a man to claim he is infallible. God says weve all fallen short of His glory and He is infallible ipso facto were all fallible.


I don't agree with the dogma of papal infallibility, but I think your reasoning could be dangerous. If man can never claim the teaching of man to be the infallible teachings of God, then how do we justify calling the Bible infallible? Is this not a case of God allowing men to write infallibly?

#25
xero

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What Im saying is that the mere idea of a pope being infallible proves the fallibility of man.

We cant magically make someone infallible because we give them the title of pope and if that were the case then we should all be made pope so the world will be without fallibility.

Im being fascetious with the last sentence but seriously theres no warrant in the Bible for a man to claim he is infallible. God says weve all fallen short of His glory and He is infallible ipso facto were all fallible.


I don't agree with the dogma of papal infallibility, but I think your reasoning could be dangerous. If man can never claim the teaching of man to be the infallible teachings of God, then how do we justify calling the Bible infallible? Is this not a case of God allowing men to write infallibly?


I dont call the Bible infallible. The Bible has been written and rewritten countless times its a mess of contradictions between the copies.

Neither you nor I have read the original texts all we have are the translations and there are differences in all of them simply because words have multiple meanings and cultural idioms dont translate well.

That doesnt mean the Bible isnt true its just the oldest book still in print and subject to mans fallibility which our language also suffers from.



#26
Omegaman

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I beleive the doctrine runs something like he is infallable when speaking as a function of his office (which a retired pope is not) he is infallible on issues of morallity and dogma, not on other topics. I can't prove it, it is just something I remember from somewhere.

#27
Tinky

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What Im saying is that the mere idea of a pope being infallible proves the fallibility of man.

We cant magically make someone infallible because we give them the title of pope and if that were the case then we should all be made pope so the world will be without fallibility.

Im being fascetious with the last sentence but seriously theres no warrant in the Bible for a man to claim he is infallible. God says weve all fallen short of His glory and He is infallible ipso facto were all fallible.


I don't agree with the dogma of papal infallibility, but I think your reasoning could be dangerous. If man can never claim the teaching of man to be the infallible teachings of God, then how do we justify calling the Bible infallible? Is this not a case of God allowing men to write infallibly?


I dont call the Bible infallible. The Bible has been written and rewritten countless times its a mess of contradictions between the copies.

Neither you nor I have read the original texts all we have are the translations and there are differences in all of them simply because words have multiple meanings and cultural idioms dont translate well.

That doesnt mean the Bible isnt true its just the oldest book still in print and subject to mans fallibility which our language also suffers from.



I think it's odd that many Catholics claim that it is the power of God that keeps Popes infallible when they speak ex cathedra, but apparently God isn't powerful enough to keep His Holy Word (the Bible) infallible.

#28
Tinky

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You guys might find this interesting:


To the Roman Catholic, "ex cathedra" (Latin for from the seat) statements are as infallible as the Bible. Though they are rare, the following are three "ex cathedra" statements or "infallible" declarations of Roman Catholicism, which they place alongside the authority of the Bible. (All emphasis is our own):

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved" (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)


"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)


"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the Ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's Sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi,Concilia, xxxi, 1739.) (Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).


To believe in papal infallibility is to believe ONLY Roman Catholics can be saved, for they alone are in submission to the Pope. It is, therefore, impossible for an informed Catholic to get saved or to stay saved if he knows of these aforementioned Roman Catholic declarations and still continues to believe in papal infallibility! This is so because salvation centers around exclusive trust in the person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ and in Him alone. In other words, all 100% of our trust for our soul's salvation MUST be in Jesus Christ alone apart from trusting in a denomination or submission to any spiritual leader, including the Pope! Since this is the Biblical message and Catholic "ex cathedra" statements contradict this, then belief in papal infallibility must be rejected for the sake of salvation! In fact, the three ex cathedra declarations just cited are clearly "another gospel" (Gal. 1:8,9).

Throughout the Scriptures, we are often warned of false prophets and false spiritual leaders (Mt. 7:15; 24:11; Rom. 16:18; 2 Cor. 11:13; Eph. 4:14; 1 Tim. 4:2; 2 Tim. 3:13; 4:3; Tit. 1:10, 2 Jn. 7; 1 Jn. 4:1; etc.). What can one conclude except that what these past popes have said regarding salvation is on a par with what the founders of Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism and what other proven false prophets have declared. All need to be flatly rejected, not only as error, but deadly error -- even "damnable heresy" (2 Pet. 2:1, KJV)!

Furthermore, in direct contrast to these "infallible" declarations, the Roman Catholic church is now saying the following regarding Muslims. Their contradiction is:


"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day' " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, p.223).


QUESTION: If Muslims can be saved on the basis of professing to hold to the faith of Abraham, why can't the Jews? (See aforementioned ex cathedra statement from 1441.) Did God change His mind sometime after 1441?

The Creed of the Council of Trent (1564) summarizes the doctrines which Catholics are to believe. There are over 100 anathemas on non-Catholics. Regarding the Pope, it states (all emphasis is our own):


"... I unhesitatingly accept and profess all the doctrines (especially those concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority) handed down, defined, and explained by the sacred canons and ecumenical councils and especially those of this most holy Council of Trent (and by the ecumenical Vatican Council). And at the same time I condemn, reject, and anathematize everything that is contrary to those propositions, and all heresies without exception that have been condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church. I, N., promise, vow, and swear that, with God's help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this trueCatholic faith, outside which no one can be saved and which I now freely profess and truly hold. With the help of God, I shall profess it whole and unblemished to my dying breath; and, to the best of my ability, I shall see to it that my subjects or those entrusted to me by virtue of my office hold it, teach it, and preach it. So help me God and his holy Gospel" (emphasis not in original). [The words in parentheses in this paragraph were inserted into the Tridentine profession of faith by order of Pope Pius IX in a decree issued by the Holy Office, January 20, 1877 (Acta Sanctae Sedis, X [1877], pp. 71 ff.).]


If you call yourself a "Catholic" and reject papal infallibility, congratulations: You are proceeding along the right path! But according to the Creed of the Council of Trent, you are not a real Catholic as they define one! Furthermore, you are indirectly endorsing this dogma you don't believe by your presence and financial donations. This makes you partly responsible for the spiritual harm that is occurring through it!

In conclusion, four very important observations can be noted because of papal infallibility:

  • There exists a dangerous, false plan of salvation or "another gospel" (Gal. 1:8,9) because of it.
  • There presently reigns contradictions and confusion regarding salvation of non-Roman Catholics.
  • The unique authority of the Bible has been diminished.
  • It indirectly opens the door to other Catholic doctrine which conceals the true way of salvation.
A Catholic who gets saved needs to leave this type of religious system as much as a Mormon who gets saved needs to leave Mormonism. There really is no difference between the two. Furthermore, Catholics who truly get saved show they recognize the serious implications of papal infallibility by exiting from this type of religious system to a local Protestant congregation that declares the true gospel as found in the Bible. To ignore such an important move can only adversely affect one who gets saved even to the point of spiritual death. Though this is blunt, it is written out of love for souls; though this may be offensive to some, it is the truth! Eternity is a long time. Let's get serious with proclaiming and defending the one and only true plan of salvation which is: "Repentance towards God and FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST" (Acts 20:21).


http://www.evangelic...h.org/papal.htm

#29
FresnoJoe

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Some Say Come

Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(c )

Come I'll Be Your Papa

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Matthew 23:8-10

Whereas Others Say Look Look

And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.


After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Mark 8:22-25

Look Up And See Jesus

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:11-15

And Know

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

God

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

~

May The LORD Bless


For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9

The Roman Catholic With His Peace

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

And With The Total Assurance Of His Mighty Salvation

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Jude 1:24-25

With Thanksgiving To My Holy Father In Heaven
For His Mercy And For His Grace
And For Answered Prayer
It Is In Jesus' Name
I Pray Save Now
My Papa
Amen

I Love You Jesus
I Love You


Joe




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