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Jesus is still the King of the Jews / of Israel

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#1
JohnDB

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Abraham was told his descendants would be in number like the grains of sand by the sea, and nothing more. 

 

No.

 

He was told his descendants would be in number like the stars in the heavens.

 

Interesting, the devil in Isaiah 14 said he will elevate himself above the stars of God... and in Revelation 13 his messiah will rise up from the sand by the seashore.

 

Revelation 13:5-10 (NASB95)
5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

 

 

Zechariah 8:23 (NASB95)
23 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” ’ ”

 

Revelation 17:12 (NASB95)
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

 

The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

Romans 11:16-26 (NASB95)
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

 

To hear most tell it, God abandoned the natural branches and started a new tree called the Church.

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 



#2
John Bernall

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Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 
 

 

Shalom,

 
Great post, though I question the usage of this passage from Romans in context with your post. I just don't understand the usage of this passage, and what or why it is used. 
 
Not being argumentative . . .

I know that there are those who would consider their selves to be "Spiritual Jews", and then cite this passage. The problem is that this passage's context pertains to literal Jews, shaming them in saying this this thing. But it's not opening a door by any means for non-Jews to lay claim to Jewishness. Yeshua did not call us out of the world into Talmud and Rabbanism and Oral Emendation of God's plain Word; but into Good Works of His Word and the Love of the Father. He did not call us to be Jews of Judaism, but, whether we are Jew or Gentile, He called us to be one new man, the Children of Yis'rael, and to the proper observances of His Torah.

To say any are "Spiritual Jews" (except, maybe, of Jews who are spiritual  :hmmm: ) is to contradict two basic passages (Galatians 3:28): There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Concerning "heirs according to the promise", also the unification of Jew and Gentile into the one body of Messiah and of Yis'rael, read Ephesians 2.11-22  :bighug: 
And (Colossians 3:11-14): . . . where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection :thumbsup: 
 
I like that last part, above all these things put on lovewhich is the bond of perfection. In Greek "the bond" is a word more accurately expressing the unifying principle. Concerning this, what's called Ichud L'chizzuq may be applied from Matthew 5.38-48.  "Ichud L'chizzuq" is a fancy way of saying Consolidation, or literally, Unifying Strength.

Edited by John Bernall, 05 December 2013 - 08:09 AM.


#3
shiloh357

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The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

 

We refuse to believe it because it is a false teaching and is not in agreement with Scripture.  It is a perversion of Scripure to be frank.   The Bible nowhere makes that claim that the Church is spiritual Israel and that Christians are spiritual Jews.

 

Both Romans 9:6 and Roman 2:28-29 are referencing ethnic Jews.   Romans 9:6 is talking about believing Jews as a remnant within Israel.  Rom. 2:29-29 is addressing what it means for Jews to be truly Jewish.  Paul's point is that Jewish people whose boast is in their Jewishness are missing what it means to be a Jew.



#4
Fez

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The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

 

We refuse to believe it because it is a false teaching and is not in agreement with Scripture.  It is a perversion of Scripure to be frank.   The Bible nowhere makes that claim that the Church is spiritual Israel and that Christians are spiritual Jews.

 

Both Romans 9:6 and Roman 2:28-29 are referencing ethnic Jews.   Romans 9:6 is talking about believing Jews as a remnant within Israel.  Rom. 2:29-29 is addressing what it means for Jews to be truly Jewish.  Paul's point is that Jewish people whose boast is in their Jewishness are missing what it means to be a Jew.

 

Amen! There are a few good threads on replacement theology on the forums.



#5
Qnts2

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Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 
 

 

Shalom,

 
Great post, though I question the usage of this passage from Romans in context with your post. I just don't understand the usage of this passage, and what or why it is used. 
 
Not being argumentative . . .

I know that there are those who would consider their selves to be "Spiritual Jews", and then cite this passage. The problem is that this passage's context pertains to literal Jews, shaming them in saying this this thing. But it's not opening a door by any means for non-Jews to lay claim to Jewishness. Yeshua did not call us out of the world into Talmud and Rabbanism and Oral Emendation of God's plain Word; but into Good Works of His Word and the Love of the Father. He did not call us to be Jews of Judaism, but, whether we are Jew or Gentile, He called us to be one new man, the Children of Yis'rael, and to the proper observances of His Torah.

To say any are "Spiritual Jews" (except, maybe, of Jews who are spiritual  :hmmm: ) is to contradict two basic passages (Galatians 3:28): There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Concerning "heirs according to the promise", also the unification of Jew and Gentile into the one body of Messiah and of Yis'rael, read Ephesians 2.11-22  :bighug: 
And (Colossians 3:11-14): . . . where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection :thumbsup: 
 
I like that last part, above all these things put on lovewhich is the bond of perfection. In Greek "the bond" is a word more accurately expressing the unifying principle. Concerning this, what's called Ichud L'chizzuq may be applied from Matthew 5.38-48.  "Ichud L'chizzuq" is a fancy way of saying Consolidation, or literally, Unifying Strength.

 

 

Both your post and Shilohs post are very good. Replacement theology is a huge error. The church is not Israel, and scripture makes that very clear.



#6
JohnDB

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The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

 

We refuse to believe it because it is a false teaching and is not in agreement with Scripture.  It is a perversion of Scripure to be frank.   The Bible nowhere makes that claim that the Church is spiritual Israel and that Christians are spiritual Jews.

 

Both Romans 9:6 and Roman 2:28-29 are referencing ethnic Jews.   Romans 9:6 is talking about believing Jews as a remnant within Israel.  Rom. 2:29-29 is addressing what it means for Jews to be truly Jewish.  Paul's point is that Jewish people whose boast is in their Jewishness are missing what it means to be a Jew.

 

 

Then why would the Bible single out physical Jews to tell them they are only really Jewish if they are Jewish in spirit?

 

And then teach:

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

???



#7
JohnDB

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Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 
 

 

Shalom,

 
Great post, though I question the usage of this passage from Romans in context with your post. I just don't understand the usage of this passage, and what or why it is used. 
 
Not being argumentative . . .

I know that there are those who would consider their selves to be "Spiritual Jews", and then cite this passage. The problem is that this passage's context pertains to literal Jews, shaming them in saying this this thing. But it's not opening a door by any means for non-Jews to lay claim to Jewishness. Yeshua did not call us out of the world into Talmud and Rabbanism and Oral Emendation of God's plain Word; but into Good Works of His Word and the Love of the Father. He did not call us to be Jews of Judaism, but, whether we are Jew or Gentile, He called us to be one new man, the Children of Yis'rael, and to the proper observances of His Torah.

To say any are "Spiritual Jews" (except, maybe, of Jews who are spiritual  :hmmm: ) is to contradict two basic passages (Galatians 3:28): There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Concerning "heirs according to the promise", also the unification of Jew and Gentile into the one body of Messiah and of Yis'rael, read Ephesians 2.11-22  :bighug: 
And (Colossians 3:11-14): . . . where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection :thumbsup: 
 
I like that last part, above all these things put on lovewhich is the bond of perfection. In Greek "the bond" is a word more accurately expressing the unifying principle. Concerning this, what's called Ichud L'chizzuq may be applied from Matthew 5.38-48.  "Ichud L'chizzuq" is a fancy way of saying Consolidation, or literally, Unifying Strength.

 

 

Both your post and Shilohs post are very good. Replacement theology is a huge error. The church is not Israel, and scripture makes that very clear.

 

 

Replacement theology?

 

This is not replacement theology. If I were to say the Church is taking the place of Israel (for any of the typical reasons replacement theology types give) then you would have a case.

 

Actually I am quoting scripture and pointing out what it means and what most folks simply do not want to believe or face.

 

Romans 11:16-26 teaches the Olive Tree (Spirit Israel by another name) consists of  believing Jews and grafted in Gentiles. No replacement. Although the Gentilized Church has tried to replace Spirit Israel (and physical Israel). Becoming a Spirit Jew of Spirit Israel does not make a Gentile born believer a physical Jew in any sense.

 

So, where's the replacement?



#8
JohnDB

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Understand, this is a program God started much earlier than the advent of Christ (the differences between the physical and the spiritual).

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Circumcision of the heart goes at least as far back as the first mention in...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Which can and does apply to females, btw. prophetic shades of "in Christ there is neither male nor female Jew nor Greek slave nor free..."

 

This is how Paul could say at a much later date:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

This is not replacement theology. This is physical Jew and physical Gentile getting onboard with what God intended for all humanity in general; those who believe in particular... and those who do not believe continue on to hell for not believing (1 John 2:2, John 3:16-18).

 

Replacement theology is more what the Church has done since the Constantine take-over 4th Century CE trying to reinvent what should have been New Covenant Judaism.Take todays Christianity laden with paganism like Astarte (Easter) with its fertility symbols of bunnies and eggs, or Christ Mass with decorated trees, yule logs, mistletoe, etc. and try to convince a Jew that Christianity ever was Jewish.

 

The Bible teaches that Gentiles are saved in part to provoke the Jews to jealousy... 



#9
JohnDB

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Romans 11:25 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

God originally intended all Israel to be priests of God.

 

Exodus 19:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

But the falling away in Exodus 32 changed many things. If you will read the account for yourselves you will find that God was wanting to kill off the entire nation and start over again with Moses. Moses stood in the breach for the Jewish people but still many were killed that day by the tribe that came to Moses' aid (his own tribe) the Levites. This is why only the tribe of Levi was the priestly tribe from that time on under the Old Covenant. They were the clergy and the rest of Israel was the laity (if you will).

 

This is not to be the case for the New Covenant. And we err badly when we agree and accept the false clergy / laity division of the Body Christian, for we are all priests of God every single one of us.

 

1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Revelation 5:10 (KJV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

The Greek kings and priests hails back to the Hebrew kingdom of priests. This is to evangelize the world. So, IF, the Old Testament was originally intended to be solely that of the Jews... whom as an entire nation were they to evangelize but Gentiles?

 

It's kind of like the discussion I get into with Jewish people (especially Rabbis) over the suffering servant Isaiah 53... if it is indeed the Jewish people (the suffering servant) who suffers for the benefit of others... then wouldn't those others have to be Gentiles?

 

So is it rabbinical that the Jews suffer under God's Torah Law so the pagans can be blessed for their paganism?

 

Doesn't make sense and in fact is not true.

 

But originally the Jews were going to be the bearers of the Gospel to the nations.

 

Now read (the Gospel in the Old Testament):

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Any mention of Gentiles?

 

Romans 9 begins with the salvation of Gentiles (if not in the beginning since the Jews rejected Christ) was God in Jeremiah 31 unaware he would be saving Gentiles too?

 

Or is it rather that we Gentile born believers are grafted in (adopted) into the House of Israel House of Judah (which Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6 clearly indicate are Spirit Houses along with Galatians 3:28).

 

Until you can prove this wrong with scripture... you must realize your resistance to accept this is not biblical but humanist... you don't WANT to believe it.

 

I will always bow the knee to truth and the scripture IS truth. The Word of God in written form and Christ is the Word of God in Person.

 

Acts 17:11... by all means refute what I teach with scripture.

 

Or...

 

Believe the truth and abandon your prejudices and pride and follow Christ according to his Word.



#10
Qnts2

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Romans 11:25 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

God originally intended all Israel to be priests of God.

 

Exodus 19:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

But the falling away in Exodus 32 changed many things. If you will read the account for yourselves you will find that God was wanting to kill off the entire nation and start over again with Moses. Moses stood in the breach for the Jewish people but still many were killed that day by the tribe that came to Moses' aid (his own tribe) the Levites. This is why only the tribe of Levi was the priestly tribe from that time on under the Old Covenant. They were the clergy and the rest of Israel was the laity (if you will).

 

This is not to be the case for the New Covenant. And we err badly when we agree and accept the false clergy / laity division of the Body Christian, for we are all priests of God every single one of us.

 

1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Revelation 5:10 (KJV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

The Greek kings and priests hails back to the Hebrew kingdom of priests. This is to evangelize the world. So, IF, the Old Testament was originally intended to be solely that of the Jews... whom as an entire nation were they to evangelize but Gentiles?

 

It's kind of like the discussion I get into with Jewish people (especially Rabbis) over the suffering servant Isaiah 53... if it is indeed the Jewish people (the suffering servant) who suffers for the benefit of others... then wouldn't those others have to be Gentiles?

 

So is it rabbinical that the Jews suffer under God's Torah Law so the pagans can be blessed for their paganism?

 

Doesn't make sense and in fact is not true.

 

But originally the Jews were going to be the bearers of the Gospel to the nations.

 

Now read (the Gospel in the Old Testament):

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Any mention of Gentiles?

 

Romans 9 begins with the salvation of Gentiles (if not in the beginning since the Jews rejected Christ) was God in Jeremiah 31 unaware he would be saving Gentiles too?

 

Or is it rather that we Gentile born believers are grafted in (adopted) into the House of Israel House of Judah (which Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6 clearly indicate are Spirit Houses along with Galatians 3:28).

 

Until you can prove this wrong with scripture... you must realize your resistance to accept this is not biblical but humanist... you don't WANT to believe it.

 

I will always bow the knee to truth and the scripture IS truth. The Word of God in written form and Christ is the Word of God in Person.

 

Acts 17:11... by all means refute what I teach with scripture.

 

Or...

 

Believe the truth and abandon your prejudices and pride and follow Christ according to his Word.

I need to repost a verse you quoted. And explain something. What does Gentile mean? It simply means: 'not Jewish'. The NT continues to call born again Gentiles, Gentiles. Therefore, born again Gentiles means, born again people who are not Israel.

 

 

 

Romans 11:25 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

In Acts, the Apostles were surprised by the Gentiles coming to the Messiah, and a major discussion occurred called the Jerusalem council.  

 

Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God

 

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

 

 

Note, that God did not grant the Gentiles repentance to become Israel. He granted the Gentiles repentance to life. The discussion continued as to whether the Gentiles needed to be physically ritually circumcised, becoming members of Israel, and the decision was that Gentiles did not need to become Israel/Jews as God had clearly accepted them fully into the New Covenant as Gentiles. How did they come to that conclusion? They searched the scriptures, which at that time was the OT only. The OT prophesies that Gentiles will come to the Messiah.

 

So, if the OT prophesies that Gentiles will come to the Messiah, you are reading a verse talking about the children of Israel, and claiming falsely that Gentiles become Israel when scripture says otherwise. As a matter of fact, replacement theology denies the truth of prophesy.

  

Psalm 117:1 Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!

  

 Isaiah 11:10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

   

  

Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.”     

   

So, you are teaching replacement theology, which is a false teaching.



#11
shiloh357

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The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

 

We refuse to believe it because it is a false teaching and is not in agreement with Scripture.  It is a perversion of Scripure to be frank.   The Bible nowhere makes that claim that the Church is spiritual Israel and that Christians are spiritual Jews.

 

Both Romans 9:6 and Roman 2:28-29 are referencing ethnic Jews.   Romans 9:6 is talking about believing Jews as a remnant within Israel.  Rom. 2:29-29 is addressing what it means for Jews to be truly Jewish.  Paul's point is that Jewish people whose boast is in their Jewishness are missing what it means to be a Jew.

 

 

Then why would the Bible single out physical Jews to tell them they are only really Jewish if they are Jewish in spirit?

 

And then teach:

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

???

 

You need to understand Paul's point in Romans 2.   Paul is using a common rhetorical device in his day which employed an imaginary interlocutor/autdience.  He has made the case of the sinful condition of the pagans in chapter one and is now making the case that the Jews, in spite of having received the Torah and in spite of being the chosen people are not in some kind of advantage over the Gentiles and that they are just as much sinners under the law as the Gentiles/pagans.  Paul is building the case for all men having equal need of Jesus as Savior.

 

He anticipates the arguments that would be leveled by a Jewish listener and he "cuts them off at the pass"  so to speak.  He being a Rabbi, knows how his fellow Jews think and how they would respond and so he answers those responses in advance.    His point to the Jewish people is that they are just as condemned and that boasting in the law and their pedigree while violating the very law they boast in  shows they are no different than the Gentiles without the law.   In fact, they are under more condemnation for violating the law than a Gentile, who while not having the law, does the very things the  law requires.

 

He ends that portion of the discussion stating to this imaginary Jewish audience that being a Jew is not simply a matter of pedigree or law keeping, but in their lives being a praise to the Lord.

 

Paul, in no way, claims that Gentiles are spirtual Jews.   That is why what Paul is true in Galatians.  In terms of acces to God's grace there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave nor free.  His point is that in Christ, all men are equally condemned and ethnic pedigree, sexual gender, and social status put no one at disadvantage or offer anyone an advantage where entrance into grace and the Kingdom of God is concerned.

 

Ethnic Jews are still Jews.   Gentiles are still Gentiles.  The word "Jew" and the word "Israel" are never spiritualized in the NT to refer to Gentile believers or the Church.



#12
FresnoJoe

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Jesus is still the King of the Jews / of Israel

 

~

 

Oh

 

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

 

My

 

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

 

Yes

 

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

 

Yes He Is

 

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6-7

 

And The Western Church Is In A Major Identity Crisis

 

Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession. Ezekiel 11:14-15
 

Because Most Still Refuse

 

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come. Ezekiel 11:16
 

To Believe Jesus

 

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. Ezekiel 11:17

 

Is Returning

 

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:9-11

 

To Zion

 

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-40
 

Town

 

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

 

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. Deuteronomy 32:41-43



#13
Spock

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The Church is in a major identity crisis because most refuse to believe the Church is Spirit Israel (always was even before Gentiles were grafted in).

We refuse to believe it because it is a false teaching and is not in agreement with Scripture.  It is a perversion of Scripure to be frank.   The Bible nowhere makes that claim that the Church is spiritual Israel and that Christians are spiritual Jews.
 
Both Romans 9:6 and Roman 2:28-29 are referencing ethnic Jews.   Romans 9:6 is talking about believing Jews as a remnant within Israel.  Rom. 2:29-29 is addressing what it means for Jews to be truly Jewish.  Paul's point is that Jewish people whose boast is in their Jewishness are missing what it means to be a Jew.

I second what brother Shiloh said here.

#14
JohnDB

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Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

?



#15
JohnDB

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It's okay. The same old pride and prejudice excuses come to light when people (both Jew and Gentile) refuse to see the truth here.

 

Things would go along more swiftly in history if it were different.

 

 

But who am I to try to shoulder God's burdens?

 

IAM+THE+VINE.jpg

 

 

I AM the Vine

Ye are the Branches

 

The Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-26)

 

which we are grafted into

 

Church+Israel.jpg






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