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Split: Reasons... Discussion on The Divintiy of Christ

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#1
GoldenEagle

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The subject of this thread is the Divinity of Christ. This is a split from this original thread: Reasons Why God Allows Suffering?

 

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Jesus wasn't exactly the same as all of us. Jesus was/is/and will continue to be God. What do you think?

Please provide Biblical backing to what you believe. :thumbsup:



#2
TheCurseOfTheRodain

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GE Philippians 2:7-8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

 

What part of that doesn't say that Jesus came as a man?

 

God has a reputation, He says He came as a man who had no reputation. He says was made in the LIKENESS of men (just like Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of the Father and were just like Him). He says He was found in FASHION (made) as a MAN.

What part of that isn't saying Jesus came as a man?

 

If He Jesus remained God, HOW DID HE DIE? (God cannot die)

If Jesus remained God, HOW COULD HE BECOME SIN (as Jesus did)

If Jesus remained God, why did He constantly identify Himself as the Son of Man (son of Adam)?

Other translations say He EMPTIED Himself of His divine priveleges.

 

The bottom line is, Jesus came as God in a man's body, because only in becoming a MAN could He die and therefore break the power of the one who held the power of death (the Devil).

AND ONLY AS A MAN could Jesus make the statement that ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS HE HAS DONE and even GREATER.

If He did everything He did as God NONE OF US could do anything He did and God would be a liar. He had to do it the same way we do - faith in God and His Word; no fear.


Edited by TheCurseOfTheRodain, 05 December 2013 - 10:43 PM.


#3
shiloh357

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GE Philippians 2:7-8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

 

What part of that doesn't say that Jesus came as a man?

 

God has a reputation, He says He came as a man who had no reputation. He says was made in the LIKENESS of men (just like Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of the Father and were just like Him). He says He was found in FASHION (made) as a MAN.

What part of that isn't saying Jesus came as a man?

 

Our contention isn't that Jesus didn't come as a man.  What we are saying is that Jesus wasn't JUST a man.  Jesus was fully man, but He was also fully God.

 

 

 

 

If He Jesus remained God, HOW DID HE DIE? (God cannot die)

 

Jesus' humanity died.  His deity didn't die.   Jesus was deity on the cross.

 

If Jesus remained God, HOW COULD HE BECOME SIN (as Jesus did)

 

Jesus didn't become sin.  The original Greek of II Cor.5:21 states that Jesus became a sin offering.  That means that our sins were imputed to Jesus, just as His righteousness is imputed to us.  We are not yet living with imparted righteousness. but Jesus' death on the cross means that it will be an eventual reality when sin is eradicated and we receive our glorified bodies.  Until then according to Romans 4 our faith is credited to us as righteousness.

 

 

If Jesus remained God, why did He constantly identify Himself as the Son of Man (son of Adam)?

 

Son of Man doesn't mean "son of Adam."   Son of Man was Jesus reference to Himself and the Jews knew what it meant.  He was not calling himself a son of man, but THE Son of Man which is a reference to the biblical prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14 where it refers to the Son of Man coming in power and glory:

 

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

Dan 7:13-14

 

Jesus referenced this passage at His trial in front of the High priest in Matt. 26:64 and they called Him a blasphemer because they recognized that passage from Daniel as a reference to God himself.

 

Other translations say He EMPTIED Himself of His divine priveleges.

 

The issue here is that the emptying didn't take place as a result of the incarnation.   Jesus didn't empty himself of His deity.   The emptying of himself occurred in His ministry.  It was during His ministry that he poured himself out and that culimated on the cross where poured out His life completely on our behalf. Jesus did not empty Himself of anything that made Him God.   Jesus forgave sins under his own authority. He exercised personal power over death, over nature and received worship.   Jesus acted like God and in claiming to be the Son of God, was recognized as claiming to be God in John 10.    Jesus claimed to be the giver of eternal life; He claimed to be the very personification of eternal life and no one but God could make those claims.

 

The bottom line is, Jesus came as God in a man's body, because only in becoming a MAN could He die and therefore break the power of the one who held the power of death (the Devil).

AND ONLY AS A MAN could Jesus make the statement that ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS HE HAS DONE and even GREATER.

If He did everything He did as God NONE OF US could do anything He did and God would be a liar. He had to do it the same way we do - faith in God and His Word; no fear.

 

Sorry but the NT affirms that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while He was on earth and He is still 100% man and 100% God even today.  Jesus modeled the Christian life in His humanity, but that in no way means that Jesus was not also God.   Jesus, even on the cross, was still God.  The cross didn't kill Jesus.  Jesus gave up HIs spirit.  He died on impulse at the moment of His choosing.   We can't do that.  A mere man can't do that.   Jesus proved He was God, when He died at the very moment He chose to die.



#4
GoldenEagle

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Jesus wasn't exactly the same as all of us. Jesus was/is/and will continue to be God. What do you think?

Please provide Biblical backing to what you believe. :thumbsup:

 

1. Basic Passages that refer to Christ’s divinity:

Paul refers to Jesus as our “Great God and Savior” in Titus 2:13.

 

Paul also said Jesus existed in the “form of God” prior to His incarnation in Philippians 2:5-8.

God the Father says regarding Jesus that “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever” in Hebrews 1:8.

Jesus is directly referred to as the creator Himself in John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17.

 

There are plenty other Scriptural passages that speak to Christ’s divinity or deity – Rev. 1:7, Rev. 2:8, 1 Cor. 10:4, 1 Pet. 5:4…

 



#5
DRS81

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Jesus wasn't exactly the same as all of us. Jesus was/is/and will continue to be God. What do you think?

Please provide Biblical backing to what you believe. :thumbsup:

 

I agree. Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelite s: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
 



#6
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Jesus proved He was God, when He died at the very moment He chose to die.

 

 

Joh 19:31-33  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.  (32)  Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.  (33)  But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
 

Exo 12:42-46  It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.  (43)  And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:  (44)  But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.  (45)  A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.  (46)  In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
 



#7
GoldenEagle

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2. Jesus Testimony of Himself
Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man in Mark 14:61-62 which is a reference to Daniel 7:13-14. In Daniel the Son of Man was given ““dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve Him.”

 

What kind of person is giving dominion that is everlasting but God Himself?

What kind of person is given a Kingdom and all men are to serve Him but God Himself?

The High Priest in Mark 14:61-62 understood what Jesus was saying because he recognized Jesus’s claim to divinity and tore his robe… Basically saying Jesus was guilty of blasphemy. You the High Priest didn’t understand Who Jesus was – God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Abba.



#8
Sevenseas

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OK...well, WOF teaches this:
 
...

Jesus was a born-again man" (Gloria Copeland, God's Will For You, p. 50). "Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God."  (Frederick K. C. Price, "If Christ Did Not Rise … What Then?" Ever Increasing Faith Messenger (June 1980): 7). "Jesus went into hell to free mankind. … When His blood poured out it did not atone."  (Kenneth Copeland, quoted in McConnell, Different Gospel, 120). Read Hebrews 12:2: "Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross [not torture in hell], despising the shame" (bracket added).  "In whom [Jesus] we have redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Ephesians 1:7, emphasis added).(cf.Psalm 139:7-8; John 5:26; 10:17-18; 19:30;  Colossians 1:19-20;  2:13-15; Revelation 1:5).

source: http://www.thechrist....org/page7.html

This is just about blashemy IMO and very dangerous.  If a person actually believes the above and other teaching exemplified by Copeland et all, they have strayed far from the truth and do NOT represent Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, but rather some sort of god/man hybrid...after all, they also teach that WE are as gods and attribute that to Jesus.

 

Of course, that is simply a verse ripped out of context and woven into their non-biblical doctrine.
 

In summary, the Word-Faith plan of redemption says:  Man was created as the "same order of being as God."  A spirit temporarily housed in a body.  He was given dominion over the Earth.  When he committed "high treason" by following Satan instead of God, man then gave up the divine nature and took on the nature of Satan.  Satan then became the god of this world and man thereafter was born with the satanic nature.  "Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in" (Kenneth Copeland, Our Covenant With God, p. 8). 
 

source: http://www.thechrist....org/page7.html

 

And this as well:
 

Jesus came so that man's spirit might be re-created (i.e., man might reclaim the divine nature).  On the cross, the plan of redemption merely began.  It was there that Jesus took on the nature of Satan, lost his divinity, became a mortal man, and went to hell.  There he suffered torture at the hand of Satan until God said "enough." Having kept the Law of God perfectly, the man Jesus was declared to be "illegally" in hell.  At that point, Jesus' spirit was re-created.  He again had the divine nature - Jesus was then born again!  The way was then clear for man to have his spirit re-created - to receive the divine nature and to become as much an incarnation as Jesus was!  Re-created men "now have the nature of God... the ability of God" (E.W. Kenyon, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, p. 82).  There are no verses in Scripture to support this blasphemous theology - read Exodus 8:10: "There is none like unto the Lord our God" (cf. Exodus 9:13-14; Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; 2 Samuel 7:22; Isaiah 46:9; Jeremiah 10:6; Hosea 11:9)

source: http://www.thechrist....org/page7.html


#9
Sevenseas

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GE Philippians 2:7-8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

 

What part of that doesn't say that Jesus came as a man?

 

God has a reputation, He says He came as a man who had no reputation. He says was made in the LIKENESS of men (just like Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of the Father and were just like Him). He says He was found in FASHION (made) as a MAN.

What part of that isn't saying Jesus came as a man?

 

If He Jesus remained God, HOW DID HE DIE? (God cannot die)

If Jesus remained God, HOW COULD HE BECOME SIN (as Jesus did)

If Jesus remained God, why did He constantly identify Himself as the Son of Man (son of Adam)?

Other translations say He EMPTIED Himself of His divine priveleges.

 

The bottom line is, Jesus came as God in a man's body, because only in becoming a MAN could He die and therefore break the power of the one who held the power of death (the Devil).

AND ONLY AS A MAN could Jesus make the statement that ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS HE HAS DONE and even GREATER.

If He did everything He did as God NONE OF US could do anything He did and God would be a liar. He had to do it the same way we do - faith in God and His Word; no fear.

 

 

What other man was born of a virgin when the Holy Spirit of God overshadowed her?  Is there another man that claims a virgin as his mother?

 

I'm not sure how it can be said that Jesus came as man only?  

 

Doesn't the NT teach that God sent His only Son, born of a virgin, to die a sinner's death so that mankind might be saved?  Jesus was sinless and it is because of that fact,

that His sacrifice was acceptable to God.  It is because he was fully God AND man that He was able to take our place.  If He had come as a man, He would not have been

sinless because the Bible teaches that every single person who has ever been born since original sin, is born with that sin nature.

 

It is beyond a stretch, IMO, to state that Jesus did things as we do as He is the One who MADE the way for us to become sons and daughters of God.  Jesus sacrifice allows

us to come before God, who is holy.  It is only the sinlessness of Jesus that ensured His resurrection on the third day.



#10
enoob57

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GE Philippians 2:7-8 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

 

What part of that doesn't say that Jesus came as a man?

 

God has a reputation, He says He came as a man who had no reputation. He says was made in the LIKENESS of men (just like Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of the Father and were just like Him). He says He was found in FASHION (made) as a MAN.

What part of that isn't saying Jesus came as a man?

 

If He Jesus remained God, HOW DID HE DIE? (God cannot die)

If Jesus remained God, HOW COULD HE BECOME SIN (as Jesus did)

If Jesus remained God, why did He constantly identify Himself as the Son of Man (son of Adam)?

Other translations say He EMPTIED Himself of His divine priveleges.

 

The bottom line is, Jesus came as God in a man's body, because only in becoming a MAN could He die and therefore break the power of the one who held the power of death (the Devil).

AND ONLY AS A MAN could Jesus make the statement that ANYONE who believes in Him would DO THE SAME WORKS HE HAS DONE and even GREATER.

If He did everything He did as God NONE OF US could do anything He did and God would be a liar. He had to do it the same way we do - faith in God and His Word; no fear.

To stand in a river and deny that it has source or that it continues is the error you have made in you reasoning...

The fact that He had no earthly father but His Father in Heaven is receptive only not available to us as for reasoning!

This 'IS' the Deity within man as Mary was a virgin and The Holy Spirit overshadowed this event so that we may know

Him as The Son of God placed within flesh... the laying aside His abilities as God was so that His Being was in all

avenues as we YET without sin 'BY His Birth, His Will and His Choice'

Heb 4:15

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;

but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
KJV

but had the ability to reach them and bring them into Himself by His Own Witness

Matt 26:53

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more

than twelve legions of angels?
KJV

    He came as a Light on how we should be here in this place that we have been reborn in; that

we should be followers of Him unto our very same Father in Heaven...

Love, Steven



#11
shiloh357

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For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 9:6-7

 

 

 

 The child that is born is Jesus in His humanity.  The Son that is given is Jesus in His deity.  Notice what His Name is called.  Among other things, Jesus is called "The Mighty God."

 

 

 

If you are wrong about the deity of Jesus, it doesn’t matter what else you are right about.  “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed (II John 1:10)

 

   



#12
other one

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To me it's as simple as this.....   when we are conceived we receive a brand new spirit .   When Jesus was conceived his spirit was not new but older than anything but the Father..  He was also Genetically pure not having an earthly father.

 

After his resurrection and ascension, he was restored to the same position he was  before he set aside being in the form of God.






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