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Get Rid of a Person to Save Him?

- - - - - Mainly 1 Cor 5:5

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#1
oak

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I read 1 Corinthians but this somehow alluded me. The quote is, "you are to deliver this man to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord." In this section in general, Paul singles out a man for incest, and demands his removal by the Church.  Also, in general this passage dissuades Corinthian' Christians from judging people outside the faith.

 

My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians? Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture? Does Paul assume that repentance will follow?  What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today? Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown?  Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority? What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture?

 

Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace?                        ,

 

 

Oak

 

PS I don't expect all my answers to be answered. Feel free to comment on just one. And I thank you in Christ's name.



#2
AFlameOfFire

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He follows up on that one in 2 Corinthians 2:6 don't he?

#3
AFlameOfFire

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He speaks of judging those within not without, in respects to putting out from among yourselves him that did a particular deed

#4
AFlameOfFire

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Man you got a bunch of questions all rolled up in there lol I been scratching my head here.

Though one thing when you had said,

"In this section in general, Paul singles out a man for incest, and demands his removal by the Church"....

I believe that was for fornication, because he says, 1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

He didn't say a man has his own mother but his fathers wife.

Given he is a man (more then likely) his father could have been widowed and have taken another wife. Would make sense to me Unless its considered incest even when unrelated? Because I cant find the word incest in the scriptures and I don't know its equal and all the fine details that go along with that. Either way really.

But this whole incident with the man (and his removal from among them) and his being brought back in (by them) in 2 Corinthians is noted. And "lest" he should be overcome with much sorrow. So it seems he was made sorrowful by the punishment inflicted by the many (not the few)and they were commanded to forgive him (now)

And then (after speaking of forgiveness of the man) Paul adds there (also) a mention of Satan in 2 Cr here

2 Cr 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

I cant figure out what you are saying from Job to this other part of in Timothy and which scripture is to be touched upon there. Im lost there

#5
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oak, on 19 Dec 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

I read 1 Corinthians but this somehow alluded me. The quote is, "you are to deliver this man to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord." In this section in general, Paul singles out a man for incest, and demands his removal by the Church.  Also, in general this passage dissuades Corinthian' Christians from judging people outside the faith.

 

My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians?

 

 

Hello Oak,

 

This can be applied to all Christians caught in sin and is a principle also demonstrated by Jesus in Matthew 18.

 

 

 Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture?

 

 

I don’t see the connection to Job ( maybe it is there  ) but definitely to 1 Timothy 1:20.

 

 

Does Paul assume that repentance will follow? 

 

 

Paul doesn’t assume repentance but shows what do if  repentance is present in 2 Corinthians 2.  

 

 

 What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today? Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown?  Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority? What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture?

 

 

The Church today often doesn’t practice this teaching because they shy from practicing righteous judgment. This is a new age philosophy that allows the leaven of sin to remain unchecked. I think the lesson can be seen in Scripture, especially pertaining to Israel, where God will not tolerate unrepentant sin amid His people. As Christians we should expect to be disciplined if we are God’s children.

 

 

Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace?                        ,

 

 

Some Christians lived unrepentantly in the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 but were cleansed from this wrong doing by the Blood of Jesus. The “such were some of you” was their condition as non believers. 

 

1Co 6:9-10  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,  (10)  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

The message is if you are a Child of the King behave or be disciplined.



#6
AFlameOfFire

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Good job ninhao, I agree.

Does speak of heaping up teachers in accord with ones own lusts, so in a sense not addressing them in any form of sound doctrine (whether in word or in practice) should be rather rare today (even as it is).

#7
One With Him

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1 Corinthians was written by Paul to a church that had lost it's way. The church at Corinth was allowing customs and rituals of their people to come into the church. Paul was using this one person as an example of how to deal with people who have put sin first yet claim to have something from God. Sexual sin is distroying the church right now, but it's happening one person at a time. The lust of the flesh in many cases is stronger than one's desire to remain close to God. Paul was trying to put this church back on the path to righteousness.



#8
AFlameOfFire

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I also like the fact that the punishment of the one come through what was inflicted of the many (or them standing together in this thing). Verses just through an elder (or one person in particular). Because you see Diotrephes (who loved the preeminence) who was casting out of the church (even by his own authority) and John acknowledges that others in the church would receive those (who he cast out) but again he forbid them to do that.

That seems like a decent example to bring forward also in this, where we see Paul appeal to all of them in this one issue (to put someone out) appealing to the many to do so. Then in John where he reprimands the likes of Diotrephes casting out of the church by himself and the acknowledgment of many members receiving them who he was doing this to (who likewise were forbidden of him) in doing just that.

One seems more like a rouge over dominating type of leader loving the preeminence which belongs to Christ (not Him) and who exhibited traits of lording over others even in casting others out of the church but for no good reason given.

#9
oak

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With your help I tried to pull it all together.

My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians?
Ninahoa: This can be applied to all Christians caught in sin and is a principle also demonstrated by Jesus in Matthew 18.

Does Paul assume that repentance will follow?
A Flame of Fire: He follows up on that one in 2 Corinthians 2:6

Ninahao: "Paul doesn’t assume repentance but shows what do if repentance is present in 2 Corinthians 2.

Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture?
I agree with Ninahoe on 1 Timothy 1:20 as far as Job the method is the same but Job is not a grave sinner: "Behold, all that he [Job] has is in your hand Satan] Only against him [Job] do not stretch out your hand [death]." Jb 1:12, "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold." Jb. 23:10

What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today?
Ninahoa:The Church today often doesn’t practice this teaching because they shy from practicing righteous judgment. This is a new age philosophy that allows the leaven of sin to remain unchecked. I think the lesson can be seen in Scripture, especially pertaining to Israel, where God will not tolerate unrepentant sin amid His people. As Christians we should expect to be disciplined if we are God’s children.

One With Him: 1 Corinthians was written by Paul to a church that had lost it's way. The church at Corinth was allowing customs and rituals of their people to come into the church. Paul was using this one person as an example of how to deal with people who have put sin first yet claim to have something from God. Sexual sin is destroying the church right now, but it's happening one person at a time. The lust of the flesh in many cases is stronger than one's desire to remain close to God Paul was trying to put this church back on the path to righteousness. [I realize you cover more than just one question but I felt this would be a good spot for your comment.]


Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown?
I think the rule of thumb is that all scripture is open to being read and contemplated.


Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority?
Yes now and before the Church; the following scripture attests to this question:

"So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and
honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:6


And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 1 Peter 5:10

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction Isaiah 48:10

What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture?
"Your righteousness, O God, reaches the high heavens. You have done great things, O God, who is like you?" Ps. 71:19

Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by
the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace?
Since the sexually immoral person was part of the Church, I would think he took all the rites of the Church but his particular sin made him unworthy.

#10
AFlameOfFire

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Does Paul assume that repentance will follow?
A Flame of Fire: He follows up on that one in 2 Corinthians 2:6
 

 

I know he hoped God would grant repentance in other places, and I would think Paul wasnt hopeless (there) toward that possibility but if he assumed it I dont know, unless I missed where he said that.  I only know that godly repentance did seem to follow. And in them as well.



#11
Butero

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I read 1 Corinthians but this somehow alluded me. The quote is, "you are to deliver this man to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord." In this section in general, Paul singles out a man for incest, and demands his removal by the Church.  Also, in general this passage dissuades Corinthian' Christians from judging people outside the faith.

 

My first question is this a singular event or can it be applied to all Christians? Does, the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture? Does Paul assume that repentance will follow?  What does this say about the authority of the Church and why is it not practiced today? Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown?  Can we think that God does this if the Church is no longer using its authority? What overall lesson's can we learn from this scripture?

 

Also, outside this scripture, how do you read, "and such were some of you. But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." ! Cor. 6:11. Especially if one church member was deemed unworthy of this grace?                        ,

 

 

Oak

 

PS I don't expect all my answers to be answered. Feel free to comment on just one. And I thank you in Christ's name.

You asked several questions, so I will try to answer them all one at a time. 

 

Is this a singular event, or can it be applied to all Christians?  I would have to assume that it can be applied to all Christians who engage in willful sins like this with no sign or remorse.  Why would it only apply to a couple of people in a single church?  The biggest question to me is how far someone has to have gone into sin to be at the point where the church puts them out of their fellowship?  I feel like it is more than just the fact they were guilty of sin, but it was continuous sin where the people involved not only seemed unconcerned about changing, but they were having a corrupting effect on the others in the congregation.

 

2. Do the trials of Job as well as the two people given up for blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:20) touch upon this scripture?  I am not sure how the trials of Job are connected to your question, but I do see the scripture in 1 Timothy 1:20 as an example of this same practice being carried out.

 

3.  Does Paul assume repentance will follow?  I believe he is hopeful it will follow.  That is what he is hoping the outcome will be, and why the soul would be saved.  Some believe he is saying that the physical body will be destroyed but the soul will be saved even if there is no repentance and this is used to promote unconditional eternal security.  I don't believe that to be the case.  He put them out of the church with the hope they would actually turn back to God before they die. 

 

4. What does this say about the authority of the church and why it is not practiced today?  I think the problem most face is trying to judge when it is necessary to do so.  This would seem to be a last resort for the most exteme cases. 

 

5.  Is this scripture so controversial that people should chalk it up to the unknown?  I don't think so.  There are times where people are put out of a church, but it is normally done in extreme cases.  There is no question that the sins mentioned in the church in Corinth were exteme.  In the case of the person guilty of blaspheme, we really don't know what they did.  We don't know if it was a single instance or a regular thing, but I get the impression the person did this on a regular basis. 

 

6.  Can we think God still does this if the church is no longer using it's authority?  The Bible is our example, and we should use it to determine how we do things in the church.  God is the same yesterday, today and forever.  What we do doesn't change the way God reacts to things. 

 

7.  What overall lessons can we learn from this scripture?  One thing we can learn is how serious sin is.  God doesn't want the church full of people who live a lifestyle of sin.  We can see how when one person lives in open sin, and nothing is done about it, others will often follow their bad example and do likewise.  We can see that it is sometimes necessary to put unrepentant sinners out of the church.  I would stress however that this seems to be in extreme cases where the guilty person won't turn from their sin.  I don't think this applies to anyone who commits a single sinful act.  If it did, you might as well close down all the churches because they won't have any congregation. 

 

8.  Outside of this scripture, how do you read "and such were some of you, "But you were washed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" 1 Cor 6:11, expecially if one church member was deemed unworthy of grace?  The scripture is speaking of someone who had a true conversion.  The sinful lifestyle was in their past.  It is not how they are living today.  The people that were put out of the church were still in a lifestyle of sin, while claiming to be Christians.  Were the others really deemed unworthy of grace?  Putting them out of the church was for the purpose of sparing the other members of the congregation from being corrupted, and there was a hope given that the people put out of the church might realize how serious their transgressions were and repent. 

 

As I attempt to answer your questions, I do so not having read any of the responses thus far, so if someone else already said the same thing in response, I apologize for the repetition. 






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