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Moral, Civil, Ceremonial Laws... What applies today?

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#1
GoldenEagle

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless,

GE



#2
ProphecyKid

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless,

GE

 

I think this is a very good synopsis of the different kind of laws that were given. When Jesus came and was on the earth the woman caught in adultery did sin according to the Moral Law, and was supposed to be stoned according to Moses law, more specifically the civil law, but Jesus overturned this law. Jesus did not say the woman did not sin, but he emphasized forgiveness over punishment. Those civil laws that the pharisees were trying to bring the people under were only for a time. 

 

Let me also comment on the civil law. If you notice, David nor Bathsheba was not stoned after they committed adultery and according to Leviticus, they were both to be stoned. The reason this did not happen goes back to the whole purpose of the civil laws. Israel in the wilderness had no King. They only had the prophet Moses and Moses had to be the prophet, priest and King at that time. God therefore gave Moses laws to be able to manage the children of Israel as a civil society. There were no prisons. God had to dictate to Moses what would happen if someone killed their brother. Saying thou shalt not kill was not enough. 

 

But what happened when Israel got a King? Well the king then dictates civil law. He says what the penalty is for someone who kills or steals and God respects the wishes of the people who choose leaders to make these laws. Therefore, the civil laws that governed Israel under Moses was no longer necessary once Israel started having Kings. Therefore, David and Bathsheba did not have to be stoned for their sin. 

 

And then when you go back to the Jews in the time of Jesus, they were under Roman rule. Rome gave them liberty to practice their religion and so they went back to all the laws of Moses and tried to implement them. They were not even dong it properly because they were supposed to bring the man for stoning as well. So indeed this is an accurate depiction of the types of laws. 



#3
Qnts2

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless,

GE

I don't think that there are such divisions of the law, and that these divisions are more man made, and not God made. No where in the OT, are these divisions even mentioned. That Mosaic law is one unit, indivisible. It is a covenant and to break even on law is to break the entire covenant/law.

 

Laws were not categorized in the OT, but these boundaries clearly can not exist. For example, the law against murder is a civil law ad a moral law, but if you read the actual set of commands which apply to 'do not murder', you will find that there are two main categories of murder, accidental and intentional. If a person accidently murdered another, the family could choose a person to be an 'adversary' and try to kill the murderer. If the murderer could make it to a city of refuge before the adversary caught them, the murderer could remain in the city of refuge, and the adversary could not touch the murderer. If the murderer stepped outside of the city of refuge, the adversary could legally kill them. Now, there is a catch to this set of laws. If the High Priest dies, the murderer can then leave the city of refuge and the adversary could no longer pursue or kill them.  I strongly believe that the murderer in the city of refuge felt trapped, as they could never leave, return to their friends and family, or to their home. So I believe the murderer would be watching, hoping, and waiting for the death of the High Priest, so they could be forgiven and free.

 

These laws concerning the adversary, the city of refuge, the murder, and the death of the high priest, point to Jesus, as does the entire law. Part of this law is civil, part moral, and part ceremonial. So, no such divisions are ever mentioned in scripture, and no such divisions can be valid, as these divisions and theology end up allowing people to pick and choose which laws they think apply and which do not.  



#4
ProphecyKid

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Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 
Deu 10:5  And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. 
 
Deu 31:24  And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 
Deu 31:25  That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 
Deu 31:26  Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 
 

God's law was place in the ark, in fact under the mercy seat. Moses Book of the law was place on the side of the ark. How can anyone say they were all one in the same. If all the law is one and the same then what does Paul mean here:

 

1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 

 

Wasn't circumcision a part of Moses law?



#5
Qnts2

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Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 
Deu 10:5  And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. 
 
Deu 31:24  And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 
Deu 31:25  That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 
Deu 31:26  Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 
 

God's law was place in the ark, in fact under the mercy seat. Moses Book of the law was place on the side of the ark. How can anyone say they were all one in the same. If all the law is one and the same then what does Paul mean here:

 

1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 

 

Wasn't circumcision a part of Moses law?

 

The New Covenant is not the Mosaic covenant. To be under the Mosaic covenant requires ritual physical circumcision. To be under the New Covenant requires the indwelling Holy Spirit who circumcises the heart. What Paul meant was the physical circumcision means nothing under the New Covenant. Physical circumcision does not save a person, give the indwelling Holy Spirit, or means a person has a circumcised heart. At that same time, a person who is not physicall ritually circumcised, does not mean they are not saved, indwelt, or has a circumcised heart.   



#6
ProphecyKid

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Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 
Deu 10:5  And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. 
 
Deu 31:24  And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 
Deu 31:25  That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 
Deu 31:26  Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 
 

God's law was place in the ark, in fact under the mercy seat. Moses Book of the law was place on the side of the ark. How can anyone say they were all one in the same. If all the law is one and the same then what does Paul mean here:

 

1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 

 

Wasn't circumcision a part of Moses law?

 

The New Covenant is not the Mosaic covenant. To be under the Mosaic covenant requires ritual physical circumcision. To be under the New Covenant requires the indwelling Holy Spirit who circumcises the heart. What Paul meant was the physical circumcision means nothing under the New Covenant. Physical circumcision does not save a person, give the indwelling Holy Spirit, or means a person has a circumcised heart. At that same time, a person who is not physicall ritually circumcised, does not mean they are not saved, indwelt, or has a circumcised heart.   

 

I totally agree with that. So you agree that it was a part of Moses law but here Paul contrasts circumcision with the commandments of God, showing a difference.

 

And again the scripture clearly shows a difference being made between God's commandments written with his own finger and what Moses wrote in his book. So how can we then say there is no difference and they all the same. 



#7
Qnts2

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Deu 10:4  And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 
Deu 10:5  And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. 
 
Deu 31:24  And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 
Deu 31:25  That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 
Deu 31:26  Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 
 

God's law was place in the ark, in fact under the mercy seat. Moses Book of the law was place on the side of the ark. How can anyone say they were all one in the same. If all the law is one and the same then what does Paul mean here:

 

1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 

 

Wasn't circumcision a part of Moses law?

 

The New Covenant is not the Mosaic covenant. To be under the Mosaic covenant requires ritual physical circumcision. To be under the New Covenant requires the indwelling Holy Spirit who circumcises the heart. What Paul meant was the physical circumcision means nothing under the New Covenant. Physical circumcision does not save a person, give the indwelling Holy Spirit, or means a person has a circumcised heart. At that same time, a person who is not physicall ritually circumcised, does not mean they are not saved, indwelt, or has a circumcised heart.   

 

I totally agree with that. So you agree that it was a part of Moses law but here Paul contrasts circumcision with the commandments of God, showing a difference.

 

And again the scripture clearly shows a difference being made between God's commandments written with his own finger and what Moses wrote in his book. So how can we then say there is no difference and they all the same. 

 

 

I disagree, if I am understanding what you are saying.

 

The laws written by Moses were the laws given by God to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai. 

 

1 Kings 2:3

Keep the charge of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,
 
2 Kings 21:8
And I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers, if only they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them.”
 
2 Chron 3:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers, if only they will observe to do all that I have commanded them according to all the law, the statutes and the ordinances given through Moses.”
 
I see two possible understandings of  1 Co.
 
1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 
 
In the Mosaic covenant, Gentiles were not commanded to be ritually physicallly circumcised. That command was for the children of Israel, and their servants..... Not free Gentiles. So, we might say that Gentiles were to keep the commands directed to the Gentiles which was a small subset for Gentiles who were in the land of Israel. The problem was, Gentiles were not equal members of the Mosaic covenant.
 
The New Covenant is very different. Jews and Gentiles entered the New covenant the same way, by faith in Jesus, and received the same New Covenant promises and blessings the same way and equally. Jews and Gentiles are obligated to the New Covenant the same way with the same New Covenant commands, so the second understanding is that unlike the Mosaic covenant, circumcision and uncircumcision means nothing. The lack of a physical ritual circumcision does not make a person (Gentiles) unequal in the New Covenant. We are all equally accepted by God and should be keeping the New Covenant commands of God.   


#8
Remnantrob

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I disagree, if I am understanding what you are saying.

 

The laws written by Moses were the laws given by God to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai. 

 

1 Kings 2:3

Keep the charge of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,
 
2 Kings 21:8
And I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers, if only they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them.”
 
2 Chron 3:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers, if only they will observe to do all that I have commanded them according to all the law, the statutes and the ordinances given through Moses.”
 
I see two possible understandings of  1 Co.
 
1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 
 
In the Mosaic covenant, Gentiles were not commanded to be ritually physicallly circumcised. That command was for the children of Israel, and their servants..... Not free Gentiles. So, we might say that Gentiles were to keep the commands directed to the Gentiles which was a small subset for Gentiles who were in the land of Israel. The problem was, Gentiles were not equal members of the Mosaic covenant.
 
The New Covenant is very different. Jews and Gentiles entered the New covenant the same way, by faith in Jesus, and received the same New Covenant promises and blessings the same way and equally. Jews and Gentiles are obligated to the New Covenant the same way with the same New Covenant commands, so the second understanding is that unlike the Mosaic covenant, circumcision and uncircumcision means nothing. The lack of a physical ritual circumcision does not make a person (Gentiles) unequal in the New Covenant. We are all equally accepted by God and should be keeping the New Covenant commands of God.   

 

:confused: I'm sure I've seen free gentiles in the old testament who chose to be a part of Israel participate in circumcision to show their conversion to that faith.  Going to go back and look up texts.



#9
Qnts2

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I disagree, if I am understanding what you are saying.

 

The laws written by Moses were the laws given by God to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai. 

 

1 Kings 2:3

Keep the charge of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,
 
2 Kings 21:8
And I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers, if only they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them.”
 
2 Chron 3:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers, if only they will observe to do all that I have commanded them according to all the law, the statutes and the ordinances given through Moses.”
 
I see two possible understandings of  1 Co.
 
1Co 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 
 
In the Mosaic covenant, Gentiles were not commanded to be ritually physicallly circumcised. That command was for the children of Israel, and their servants..... Not free Gentiles. So, we might say that Gentiles were to keep the commands directed to the Gentiles which was a small subset for Gentiles who were in the land of Israel. The problem was, Gentiles were not equal members of the Mosaic covenant.
 
The New Covenant is very different. Jews and Gentiles entered the New covenant the same way, by faith in Jesus, and received the same New Covenant promises and blessings the same way and equally. Jews and Gentiles are obligated to the New Covenant the same way with the same New Covenant commands, so the second understanding is that unlike the Mosaic covenant, circumcision and uncircumcision means nothing. The lack of a physical ritual circumcision does not make a person (Gentiles) unequal in the New Covenant. We are all equally accepted by God and should be keeping the New Covenant commands of God.   

 

:confused: I'm sure I've seen free gentiles in the old testament who chose to be a part of Israel participate in circumcision to show their conversion to that faith.  Going to go back and look up texts.

 

You are right. Caleb, and Ruth were Gentiles who converted to Judaism.

 

In the OT, Ruth is seen as the best example of a convert. Ruth said to Naomi, your God is my God and your people are my people (paraphrased).

 

The Mosaic law made it such that the children of Israel were one unit, dependent on each other, and responsible for one another. God dealt with the nation/people, so what happened to the nation of people, happened to all people. If Israel was blessed, all benefited from the blessing, and if Israel sinned, all people experienced the punishment. So, to be a part of Judaism meant a person was a part of the people, which meant they were then Jewish. Ruth was the beneficiary of a kinsmen redeemer, which meant that Ruth was viewed as Jewish, a kinsman. Land inheritance was based on being Jewish and based on which tribe, and Caleb inherited land as a Jewish person who was a member of the tribe of Judah.

 

So, once converted, the person is viewed and treated as 100% Jewish, and their children of Jewish. Ruth became a Jew, as did Caleb. Caleb was circumcised, which made him a member of the Jewish people, fully obligated to the Mosaic covenant.

 

(A male person who was born Jewish but was not circumcised was, according to the law, cut off from the people.)



#10
shiloh357

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The New Testament nowhere rescinds God's laws. The New Testament augments God's laws, if anything. The New Testament doesn't offer a revised list of commanmdments. The New Testament isn't a new law; it is a new adminstration of God's laws.   The New Testament presents us with a with a better High Priest under a better priestly order.  It provides us with a better sacrifice and better blood. 

 

Old Covenant is obsolete.   To illustrate:  The "Model T" automobile was made obsolete by more modern automobiles that are based on better technology and better capabilities.   The cotton gin made deseeding cotton by hand obsolete back in the 1800's. The cotton gin didn't do away with the need to deseed cotton.  It provided a better, more efficient way to deseed cotton. The New Covenant being a better covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete.  It didn't do away with our need for blood sacrifice. It didn't do away with our need for a High Priest.  It simply provided better versions of these things in the Person  of Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus is the personification of the sacrifices, the Sabbath, the festivals,  Jesus is the personification of the righteousness the law demands.  When Jesus was living on earth during His earthly ministry,  Jesus not only kept the law perfectly, He fulfilled the righteousness of it. Only He could do that. Jesus is the embodiment, the very substance of the law.   He is the fullest expression of it.    

 

The law represents the standard of holiness that God's righteoueness demands.  Jesus doesn't absolve us from that standard.  Rather, Jesus in us fulfills the righteousnes of the law (Rom. 84).   In Christ, the demands of God's laws are accompanied by the power and the passion to live out that standard. His grace provides us the stamina we need to obey.   The grace of God, far from being a means of avoiding holiness, is the expectation holy living.   Whatever God commands us to do, He provides the stamina we need to finish strong. The height of God's holiness is matched only by the depth of His grace.



#11
Butero

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless

I have been saying almost the exact same thing for years.  There are basically 3 types of laws.  1.  The laws pertaining to the office of the Levitical Priests.  These laws don't apply today because they were only intended to continue till the cross.  2.  Laws of separation.  These were laws that showed Israel was a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations around them.  These laws don't apply to us because after the cross, the gentile believers are engrafted into the same spiritual tree as the Jews.  We are adopted Jews, and since we are no longer unclean through faith in Christ, laws of separation don't apply.  3.  Moral laws.  These reflect God's standards, and they do apply to us today. 

 

That is how I break them down.  A separate issue is one of penalties for disobedience.  Israel was governed by the law of Moses, and that meant to enforce the laws, there had to be penalties.  The penalties don't apply today.  We don't have to execute adulterers, homosexuals and witches, for an example. 



#12
ProphecyKid

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless

I have been saying almost the exact same thing for years.  There are basically 3 types of laws.  1.  The laws pertaining to the office of the Levitical Priests.  These laws don't apply today because they were only intended to continue till the cross.  2.  Laws of separation.  These were laws that showed Israel was a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations around them.  These laws don't apply to us because after the cross, the gentile believers are engrafted into the same spiritual tree as the Jews.  We are adopted Jews, and since we are no longer unclean through faith in Christ, laws of separation don't apply.  3.  Moral laws.  These reflect God's standards, and they do apply to us today. 

 

That is how I break them down.  A separate issue is one of penalties for disobedience.  Israel was governed by the law of Moses, and that meant to enforce the laws, there had to be penalties.  The penalties don't apply today.  We don't have to execute adulterers, homosexuals and witches, for an example. 

 

 

My only disagreement with you is on what you term the laws of seperation. I don't agree that God gave them laws just because he wanted them to be seperate. I don't see why that would be a main reason for God giving any set of laws. Now the laws could have made them seperate as a result, but I cant see how it could be the initial purpose. 



#13
Butero

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless

I have been saying almost the exact same thing for years.  There are basically 3 types of laws.  1.  The laws pertaining to the office of the Levitical Priests.  These laws don't apply today because they were only intended to continue till the cross.  2.  Laws of separation.  These were laws that showed Israel was a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations around them.  These laws don't apply to us because after the cross, the gentile believers are engrafted into the same spiritual tree as the Jews.  We are adopted Jews, and since we are no longer unclean through faith in Christ, laws of separation don't apply.  3.  Moral laws.  These reflect God's standards, and they do apply to us today. 

 

That is how I break them down.  A separate issue is one of penalties for disobedience.  Israel was governed by the law of Moses, and that meant to enforce the laws, there had to be penalties.  The penalties don't apply today.  We don't have to execute adulterers, homosexuals and witches, for an example. 

 

 

My only disagreement with you is on what you term the laws of seperation. I don't agree that God gave them laws just because he wanted them to be seperate. I don't see why that would be a main reason for God giving any set of laws. Now the laws could have made them seperate as a result, but I cant see how it could be the initial purpose. 

 

What I mean is laws like circumcision.  This was given to show Israel was a separate people.  Laws of unclean foods were for the same purpose.  You can see this in Acts and Peter's vision.  That is where the purpose of these laws are shown. 



#14
ProphecyKid

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Read this today... Particularly relating to the Christian and the OT Law...

 


The Old Testament Law
 

Ceremonial Law: This type of law relates to Israel's worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, that is to worship and love God, still apply.

Civil Law: This law dictated Israel's daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are used to guide our conduct.
 

Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example are the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God.

 

What do you think? Let's discuss.

God bless

I have been saying almost the exact same thing for years.  There are basically 3 types of laws.  1.  The laws pertaining to the office of the Levitical Priests.  These laws don't apply today because they were only intended to continue till the cross.  2.  Laws of separation.  These were laws that showed Israel was a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations around them.  These laws don't apply to us because after the cross, the gentile believers are engrafted into the same spiritual tree as the Jews.  We are adopted Jews, and since we are no longer unclean through faith in Christ, laws of separation don't apply.  3.  Moral laws.  These reflect God's standards, and they do apply to us today. 

 

That is how I break them down.  A separate issue is one of penalties for disobedience.  Israel was governed by the law of Moses, and that meant to enforce the laws, there had to be penalties.  The penalties don't apply today.  We don't have to execute adulterers, homosexuals and witches, for an example. 

 

 

My only disagreement with you is on what you term the laws of seperation. I don't agree that God gave them laws just because he wanted them to be seperate. I don't see why that would be a main reason for God giving any set of laws. Now the laws could have made them seperate as a result, but I cant see how it could be the initial purpose. 

 

What I mean is laws like circumcision.  This was given to show Israel was a separate people.  Laws of unclean foods were for the same purpose.  You can see this in Acts and Peter's vision.  That is where the purpose of these laws are shown. 

 

 

No I disagree. Circumcision had a spiritual meaning behind it. Speaking of Abraham the bible says:

 

Rom 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 
 
Circumcision was not just to show a difference. God doesn't let people just do things without any meaning just to make them different. 
 
And when it comes to the dietary laws, remember that back in the days of Noah there were clean and unclean animals. God would not want them to have a different diet if it would not be of benefit to them, if the only reason was to make them different. God told them that if they followed his laws, the diseases that the Egyptians get, they would not get them and scientific research shows that the foods labelled unclean in the bible retain a much higher level of toxins in their bodies as opposed to the foods labelled clean. The foods labelled clean are lower down in the food chain and have better systems of elimination such as a cow with 4 stomachs. So you can't just reduce it to being separate. 


#15
Butero

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I know there are people that believe like you do.  I am not one of them.  I believe the only reason for the dietary laws was to give a sign of separation between the Jews and idol worshipping gentiles.  I believe the symbolism was to show Israel was clean and worshipped the true and living God and the gentiles were unclean and worshipped idols.  Now that the gentiles are part of God's family, the symbolism has changed, and we may now eat anything sold in the market place.  What God has cleansed should not be called common or unclean.  Circumcision was a sign that Abraham, the first Jew, belonged to God, and the sign was given to all Israel.  It showed them a separate people from the idolatrous gentile nations around them.  If you were a gentile, and wanted to be saved, you were to become as a Jew and received the sign of circumcision.  We are no longer required to do those things.  But I do understand your position.  I just don't share it. 



#16
gdemoss

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Moral, Civil, Ceremonial Laws... What applies today?

 

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

The person of Jesus Christ is what applies not law.

 

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

However one must understand.

 

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

There was a new beginning made during the times of the Gentiles.

 

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

And finally....

 

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

 

 

I write the preceding with the full understanding that the easiest way to pervert the word of God is to read it per verse rather than completely in context.  I chose the specific verses and order to lead one to see them as I do.  I have every reason to believe that I see them in truth but do not for a single moment believe that it is impossible for me to be wrong and gladly extend my hand to those who choose to agree to disagree without the need for stones.  Peace unto all those who are truly in Christ.  It isn't a free for all but rather a freedom to worship God through Christ Jesus our Lord that I have.  I am not bound by Moses.  I am bound by Love.  God is Love.



#17
Brother Paul

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Also consider these...

 

2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (like the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).
 
7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?
 
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).
 
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.
 
In the Exodus Pentecost (Shavuot), 50 days after the deliverance of Israel, the Lord gave the letter of the Law engraved in stone. It was at Mount Sinai in Arabia (called also Horeb), the mount of God in the land of Jethro of Midian…as Moses came down declaring the Commandments the people fled and 3,000 eternally died
 
(You shall, you shall, you shall not, you shall not…it is all about “Thou” and the eye turns onto self)
 
In the Acts Pentecost, 50 days after deliverance of whosoever will that would come, the Lord gave the Spirit, and wrote all we need in our hearts. It was on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem the city made Holy by God. Jesus went UP giving the Spirit and 3,000 were eternally saved.
 
(And they went about preaching the wonderful works of God…they glorified Christ, led them to salvation…it’s all about God and the eye turns to Christ…what He said and what He did and His gracious offer of love – 2:37-39) 
 
Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin and the judgment…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.
 
Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
 
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
 
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
 
Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.
 
Colossians 2 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;
 
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
 
So He not only nailed our sins to the cross but also the ordinances against us, so...they no longer have any effect…by grace we are SAVED.
 
In His love
 
Brother Paul


#18
shiloh357

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My only disagreement with you is on what you term the laws of seperation. I don't agree that God gave them laws just because he wanted them to be seperate. I don't see why that would be a main reason for God giving any set of laws. Now the laws could have made them seperate as a result, but I cant see how it could be the initial purpose. 

 

 

Many of the laws God gave the Israelites were for the purpose of making them a separate people.  The laws against occultic practices, tatooing, against constructing an idol and claiming it to be YHVH, the hygene laws, the law against drinking blood, and a host of other laws were designed to set Israel apart.  The Sabbath was exclusive to Israel.  No other nation observed a day of rest.

 

There are several laws that you can see are meant to make Israel visibly separate because over and over again, God says they are not imitate what they see in the surrounding cultures.  These prohibitions I listed above and many others are meant make Israel stand out.  God didn't want Israel to adopt the worship practices of the other nations and so He gave Israel a set of laws that were in fact the polar opposite of what was done in other cultures.  Israel's worship of ONE God was to look completely different in every way to how the other nations worshipped their God.   It is all about separation and sanctification of worship, making Israel a peculiar people among the nations.



#19
Spock

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Excellent synopsis GE. I agree 100%.

As a side note, don't flame me, Saturday is my preferred day to publicly worship and or rest. I am a teacher so usually I won't grade papers or write lesson plans on Saturday. I do that on Sunday. My wife and I either attend a Messianic congregation on Saturday or we stay home and study gods word, worship and pray on Saturday. Naturally we try to follow the fourth commandment as written. We do not judge others who don't.

Anyhow, that's my two cents on this topic. Great question to ponder.

Spock

#20
GoldenEagle

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Here's another resource too:

 

 

Question: "What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament?"

Answer:
The law of God given to Moses is a comprehensive set of guidelines to ensure that the Israelites' behavior reflected their status as God's chosen people. It encompasses moral behavior, their position as a godly example to other nations, and systematic procedures for acknowledging God's holiness and mankind's sinfulness. In an attempt to better understand the purpose of these laws, Jews and Christians categorize them. This has led to the distinction between moral law, ceremonial law, and judicial law.

Moral Law
The moral laws, or mishpatim, relate to justice and judgment and are often translated as "ordinances." Mishpatim are said to be based on God's holy nature. As such, the ordinances are holy, just, and unchanging. Their purpose is to promote the welfare of those who obey. The value of the laws is considered obvious by reason and common sense. The moral law encompasses regulations on justice, respect, and sexual conduct, and includes the Ten Commandments. It also includes penalties for failure to obey the ordinances. Moral law does not point people to Christ; it merely illuminates the fallen state of all mankind.

Modern Protestants are divided over the applicability of mishpatim in the church age. Some believe that Jesus' assertion that the law will remain in effect until the earth passes away (Matthew 5:18) means that believers are still bound to it. Others, however, understand that Jesus fulfilled this requirement (Matthew 5:17), and that we are instead under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is thought to be "love God and love others" (Matthew 22:36-40). Although many of the moral laws in the Old Testament give excellent examples as to how to love God and love others, and freedom from the law is not license to sin (Romans 6:15), we are not specifically bound by mishpatim.

Ceremonial Law
The ceremonial laws are called hukkim or chuqqah in Hebrew, which literally means “custom of the nation”; the words are often translated as "statutes." These laws are not obvious to common sense; for example, the destruction of perfectly good animals for sacrifice and the rejection of food sources such as pork and rabbit. Instead, these statutes seem to focus the adherent's attention on God. They include instructions on regaining right standing with God (e.g., sacrifices and other ceremonies regarding "uncleanness"), remembrances of God's work in Israel (e.g., feasts and festivals), specific regulations meant to distinguish Israelites from their pagan neighbors (e.g., dietary and clothing restrictions), and signs that point to the coming Messiah (e.g., the Sabbath, circumcision, Passover, and the redemption of the first-born). Some Jews believe that the ceremonial law is not fixed. They hold that, as societies evolve, so do God's expectations of how His followers should relate to Him. This view is not indicated in the Bible.

Christians are not bound by ceremonial law. Since the church is not the nation of Israel, memorial festivals, such as the Feast of Weeks and Passover, do not apply. Galatians 3:23-25 explains that since Jesus has come, Christians are not required to sacrifice or circumcise. There is still debate in Protestant churches over the applicability of the Sabbath. Some say that its inclusion in the Ten Commandments gives it the weight of moral law. Others quote Colossians 2:16-17 and Romans 14:5 to explain that Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath and become our Sabbath rest. As Romans 14:5 says, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." The applicability of the Old Testament law in the life of a Christian has always related to its usefulness in loving God and others. If someone feels observing the Sabbath aids him in this, he is free to observe it.

Judicial/Civil Law
The Westminster Confession adds the category of judicial or civil law. These laws were specifically given for the culture and place of the Israelites and encompass all of the moral law except the Ten Commandments. This includes everything from murder to restitution for a man gored by an ox and the responsibility of the man who dug a pit to rescue his neighbor's trapped donkey (Exodus 21:12-36). Since the Jews saw no difference between their God-ordained morality and their cultural responsibilities, this category is used by Christians far more than by Jewish scholars.

The division of the Jewish law into different categories is a human construct designed to better understand the nature of God and define which laws church-age Christians are still required to follow. Many believe the ceremonial law is not applicable, but we are bound by the Ten Commandments. All the law is useful for instruction (2 Timothy 3:16), and nothing in the Bible indicates that God intended a distinction of categories. Christians are not under the law (Romans 10:4). Jesus fulfilled the law, thus abolishing the difference between Jew and Gentile "so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross…" (Ephesians 2:15-16).






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