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How I Wish the Homosexuality Debate Would Go

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#1
Parker1

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Just once, I’d like to see a TV interview go more like this:

 

Host: You are a Christian pastor, and you say you believe the Bible, which means you are supposed to love all people.

Pastor: That’s right.

Host: But it appears to me that you and your church take a rather unloving position when it comes to gay people. Are homosexuals welcome to come to your church?

Pastor: Of course. We believe that the gospel is a message relevant for every person on the planet, and we want everyone to hear the gospel and find salvation in Jesus Christ. So at our church, our arms are outstretched to people from every background, every race, every ethnicity and culture. We’re a place for all kinds of sinners and people with all kinds of problems.

Host: But you said there, “We’re a place for sinners.” So you do believe that homosexuality is sinful, right?

Pastor: Yes, I do.

Host: So how do you reconcile the command to love all people with a position on homosexuality that some would say is radically intolerant?

Pastor: (smiling) If you think my position on homosexuality is radical, just wait until you hear what else I believe! I believe that a teenage guy and girl who have sex in the backseat of a pick-up are sinning. The unmarried heterosexual couple living down the street from me is sinning. In fact, any sexual activity that takes place outside of the marriage covenant between a husband and wife is sinful. What’s more, Jesus takes this sexual ethic a step further and goes to the heart of the matter. That means that any time I even lust after someone else, I am sinning. Jesus’ radical view of sexuality shows all of us up as sexual sinners, and that’s why He came to die. Jesus died to save lustful, homo- and heterosexual sinners and transform our hearts and minds and behavior. Because He died for me, I owe Him my all. And as a follower of Jesus, I’m bound to what He says about sex and morality.

Host: But Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality outright, did He?

Pastor: He didn’t have to. He went to the heart issue and intensified the commands against immoral behavior in the Old Testament. So Jesus doesn’t just condemn adultery, for example, as does one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus condemns even the lust that leads to adultery, all with the purpose of offering us transformed hearts that begin beating in step with His radical demands.

Host: You say he condemned adultery, but he chose not to condemn the woman caught in adultery.

Pastor: That’s right, but He did tell her to “go and sin no more.”

Host: But who are you to condemn someone who doesn’t line up with your personal beliefs about sexuality?

Pastor: Who am I? No one. It’s not all that important what I think about these things. This conversation about homosexuality isn’t really about my personal beliefs. They’re about Jesus and what He says. I have no right to condemn or judge the world. That right belongs to Jesus. My hope is to follow Him faithfully. That means that whatever He says in regard to sexual practices is what I believe to be true, loving, and ultimately best for human flourishing – even when it seems out of step with the whims of contemporary culture.

Host: But you are judging. You are telling all the gay people watching this broadcast that they are sinners.

Pastor: I’m not singling out gay people. I’m pointing to Jesus as the answer to all sexual sinfulness.

Host: But you are referring to gay people. Why are you so focused on homosexuality?

Pastor: (smiling) With all due respect, you are the one who brought up this subject.

Host: Are you saying that you can’t be gay and Christian?

Pastor: No. I’m saying that you can’t be a genuine Christian without repentance. Everyone – including me – is guilty of sin, but Christianity hinges on repentance. We agree with God about our sin, and we turn from it and turn toward Jesus. When it comes to Christianity, this debate is not about homosexuality versus other sins. It’s about whether or not repentance is integral to the Christian life.

Host: But do you see why a homosexual watching this might think you are attacking them personally? You’re saying that something is wrong with them.

Pastor: I think Jesus’ teaching on sexuality shows us that there is something wrong with all of us – something that can only be fixed by what Jesus did for us on the cross and in His resurrection. That said, I understand why people might think I am attacking them personally. Most people with same-sex desires believe they were born with these tendencies. That’s why they often see their attraction as going to the very core of who they are, and so they identify themselves with the “gay” label. So whenever someone questions their behavior or desires, they take it as an attack on the very core of their being. That’s usually not the intent of the person who disagrees with homosexual behavior. But that’s the way it is perceived. I understand that.

Host: If it’s true that a person is born with one sexual orientation or another, then how can it possibly be loving to condemn one person’s orientation?

Pastor: Well, we really don’t know for certain about sexual attraction being innate and set from birth. All we have is the testimony of people who say that they’ve experienced same-sex desires since childhood. Christianity teaches that all people are born with a bent toward sin. It’s possible that some people will have a propensity toward alcohol abuse or angry outbursts, while others may have a propensity toward other sins. Regardless, Christians believe people are more than their sexual urges. We believe that human dignity is diminished whenever we define ourselves by sexual urges and behaviors. Consider this: married men are sometimes attracted to multiple women who are not their wives. Does this mean they should self-identify as polygamists? Not at all. And surely you wouldn’t consider it hateful for Christians to encourage married men not to act on their desires in an effort to remain faithful to their spouses. It is the Christian way, after all.

Host: No, but it still seems like you are telling people not to be true to who they are.

Pastor: It only seems that way because you believe sexual desire reflects the core of one’s identity. It would help if you and others who agree with you would understand that in your putting pressure on me to accept homosexual behavior as normal and virtuous, you are going to the very core of my identity as a follower of Jesus. The label most important to me is “Christian.” My identity – in Christ – is central to who I am. So I could say the same thing and call you intolerant, bigoted, and hateful for trying to change a conviction that goes to the core of who I am as a Christian. I don’t say that because I don’t believe that’s your intention. But neither should you think it’s my intention to attack a homosexual person or cause them harm merely because I disagree.

Host: But the problem is, your position fosters hate and encourages bullying.

Pastor: I recognize that some people have mistreated homosexuals in the past. It’s a shame that anyone anywhere would mock, taunt, or bully another human being made in God’s image. That said, I think we need to make one thing clear in regard to civil discourse: To differ is not to hate. I hope we can still have a real conversation in this country about different points of view without casting one another in the worst possible light. The idea that disagreeing with homosexual behavior necessarily results in harm to gay people is designed to shut down conversation and immediately rule one point of view (in this case, the Christian one) out of bounds. As a Christian, I am to love my neighbor and seek his good, even when I don’t see eye to eye with my neighbor. Furthermore, the picture of Christ on the cross dying for His enemies necessarily affects the way I think about this and other issues. By Trevin Wax

Copyright © 2013 by the author listed above. Used by permission.



#2
other one

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Amen to this.



#3
other one

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btw that is a very interesting web site.



#4
D-9

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I think it would be a good change of pace for Christians to follow this example instead of what they typically do now on the issue, which I guess is your point Parker. 

 

I understand that usually when you press a Christian most will say that they condemn all (sexual) sins and homosexuality is just one of those sins therefore they condemn it. But I can't help but feel after listening to conservative/Christian media for years, talking to dozens and dozens of conservative Christians about this issue and so forth, that often it is nothing more than lip-service to the idea. I have met Christians which I sincerely believe they have the same attitude towards homosexuality as the pastor did in the OP, and I genuinely tip my hat towards them, but I see this as a rarity and not the norm. On the whole I do see uncommon hatred towards homosexuals by Christians, and I just do not buy the line that most of them are against all sins in the same way. I think the hatred is so deep-seated that many don't even realize when they say something hateful. 

 

If you really want to curb sexual immorality in the world homosexuality should be towards the bottom of the list. Things like divorce, sex before marriage, teen/unmarried pregnancies, the sexualization of women and even more disgustingly that of young girls, are all more rampant and more consequential to our society than homosexuality. But no one really ever talks about those and other sexual immoralities the way people talk about homosexuality or even as often. It is always God is punishing us for allowing homosexuality, not God is punishing us for our high divorce rates, or our over-obsession with sex in this country, or god forbid our neglect of the poor and needy lest we become evil commie socialists. 



#5
MorningGlory

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I think it would be a good change of pace for Christians to follow this example instead of what they typically do now on the issue, which I guess is your point Parker. 

 

I understand that usually when you press a Christian most will say that they condemn all (sexual) sins and homosexuality is just one of those sins therefore they condemn it. But I can't help but feel after listening to conservative/Christian media for years, talking to dozens and dozens of conservative Christians about this issue and so forth, that often it is nothing more than lip-service to the idea. I have met Christians which I sincerely believe they have the same attitude towards homosexuality as the pastor did in the OP, and I genuinely tip my hat towards them, but I see this as a rarity and not the norm. On the whole I do see uncommon hatred towards homosexuals by Christians, and I just do not buy the line that most of them are against all sins in the same way. I think the hatred is so deep-seated that many don't even realize when they say something hateful. 

 

If you really want to curb sexual immorality in the world homosexuality should be towards the bottom of the list. Things like divorce, sex before marriage, teen/unmarried pregnancies, the sexualization of women and even more disgustingly that of young girls, are all more rampant and more consequential to our society than homosexuality. But no one really ever talks about those and other sexual immoralities the way people talk about homosexuality or even as often. It is always God is punishing us for allowing homosexuality, not God is punishing us for our high divorce rates, or our over-obsession with sex in this country, or god forbid our neglect of the poor and needy lest we become evil commie socialists. 

 

I have to agree with you; homosexuality is just one of many sexual (and other) sins.  I think believers concentate more on that particular one because it's shoved in our faces 24/7 and it's unnatural. 



#6
gray wolf

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I think the issue gets WAY too much air time. It seems to me people on both sides are trying to get a reaction and we play right into their hands. I concur that there are bigger issues to deal with. I do not condone homosexual behavior by any means, but I do not condone drunkenness or adultery either.

#7
DRS81

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2+2=4 everyone.

If homosexuality is against God, then homosexuality is a seed planted into human beings by the devil.

http://www.openbible...s/homosexuality



#8
DRS81

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On the whole I do see uncommon hatred towards homosexuals by Christians.

 

Depends on the christian. Our Lord Jesus told us to hate the sin, love the sinner. And that's something I abide by because if we aren't, then we sin through anger and I'm no better.



#9
MorningGlory

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2+2=4 everyone.

If homosexuality is against God, then homosexuality is a seed planted into human beings by the devil.

http://www.openbible...s/homosexuality

 

Yes, exactly. 



#10
WillfromTexas

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Love the sinner hate the sin like has been said.  The problem with homosexuality and the Church is homosexuals want Christians to condone it inside of Church.  Such as going to Church as a gay couple and everyone is suppose to accept that. 

 

People try and compare it with adultery and things but people hide those sins and keep them private.  They are still wrong just nobody is asking them to be accepted or advertising.  If a man was known in a Church to be married and he started coming to Church with his mistresses it'd be the same thing.  Sin is sin and God judges all those sexual sins under the same light.  There is a difference in presentation I guess.  Homosexuals tend to want to rub their sin in people's face and have no desire to change.



#11
DRS81

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I'm surprised we can actually have a conversation about this. Many christian forums denote this subject as off limits.



#12
chloe_fantastic

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This is no ordinary Christian forum. ;)



#13
Rustyangel

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Homosexuality is a sin.  Again we love the sinner hate the sin.  I just wish it would all stop.



#14
D-9

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I have to agree with you; homosexuality is just one of many sexual (and other) sins.  I think believers concentate more on that particular one because it's shoved in our faces 24/7 and it's unnatural. 

 

Like GW I think there is a feedback loop between the two sides, which I think accounts for much of the media's hype over those stories, but I also think as consumers we consume those stories (maybe because most of the country is clearly in one of the two camps?) - capitalism at work. 

 

I have to wonder what you mean by the sin of homosexuality is shoved in our faces 24/7? 



#15
other one

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This is no ordinary Christian forum. ;)

amen to that...



#16
WillfromTexas

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I have to agree with you; homosexuality is just one of many sexual (and other) sins.  I think believers concentate more on that particular one because it's shoved in our faces 24/7 and it's unnatural. 

 

Like GW I think there is a feedback loop between the two sides, which I think accounts for much of the media's hype over those stories, but I also think as consumers we consume those stories (maybe because most of the country is clearly in one of the two camps?) - capitalism at work. 

 

I have to wonder what you mean by the sin of homosexuality is shoved in our faces 24/7? 

 

 

Have you seen the scripts for television lately, or advertising, news stories?  It's a gay pride parade daring anyone to tell them it is wrong.  Then they yell hate crime if you say it is wrong and a sin.  It is getting to the point where we're just a few rulings away from it actually being a crime saying it is wrong.  They want to compare it to being discriminated like minorities but there's a huge difference,  You can't change your skin color but you can change your sexual immorality.

 

Let's just face it homosexuals want us all to say they are just fine as they are.  They don't want to change in any way, shape, or form they want Christians, the Bible, and God to change.  God isn't going to change.

 

An example of it being rubbed in our faces.  If you've watched most any mainstream program in the past few years they have worked in a gay story to be 'hip'.  Even The Walking Dead!  No not two lesbian zombies but two lesbian survivors.  Then there's Queer Eye, Glee, etc... etc...  Listen to the language too...  They don't just say man and woman but always throw in 'significant other'.  It's everywhere and all over the place.



#17
DRS81

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An example of it being rubbed in our faces.  If you've watched most any mainstream program in the past few years they have worked in a gay story to be 'hip'.  Even The Walking Dead!  No not two lesbian zombies but two lesbian survivors.  Then there's Queer Eye, Glee, etc... etc...  Listen to the language too...  They don't just say man and woman but always throw in 'significant other'.  It's everywhere and all over the place.

 

Another one is the soap opera 'General Hospital', also worked in a gay story line.

I've been a GH fan since 1994, but yeah it seems to be spreading.

Not to mention gay marriage is spreading in the United States faster than milk hitting cereal.



#18
D-9

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Have you seen the scripts for television lately, or advertising, news stories?  It's a gay pride parade daring anyone to tell them it is wrong.  Then they yell hate crime if you say it is wrong and a sin.  It is getting to the point where we're just a few rulings away from it actually being a crime saying it is wrong.  They want to compare it to being discriminated like minorities but there's a huge difference,  You can't change your skin color but you can change your sexual immorality.

 

Let's just face it homosexuals want us all to say they are just fine as they are.  They don't want to change in any way, shape, or form they want Christians, the Bible, and God to change.  God isn't going to change.

 

An example of it being rubbed in our faces.  If you've watched most any mainstream program in the past few years they have worked in a gay story to be 'hip'.  Even The Walking Dead!  No not two lesbian zombies but two lesbian survivors.  Then there's Queer Eye, Glee, etc... etc...  Listen to the language too...  They don't just say man and woman but always throw in 'significant other'.  It's everywhere and all over the place.

 

Thank you for the response Will, and I find it very interesting and insightful; I am a liberal so I don't have the same reaction when I see that stuff as you do. I don't see it as rubbing it in our faces but a combination of homosexuals trying to be people and how our society is becoming more accepting of gays. I think you have to look at the history the gay community had to go through. When America was first established the legal penalty for being gay was death (a carryover from English law), and less than a hundred years ago America decided that consensual gay sex among adults should no longer be a felony. So we are talking about a section of the population that has been violently oppressed for centuries, and only recently have they gotten some basic human dignity from the government and society at large. Society is learning to live without oppressing gay people, and our media complex is adjusting accordingly. I suspect things like gay pride parades, and gay TV episodes, are going to fade away as society becomes more accepting of gay people to the point where gay people don't feel the need to defend their right to be human, really, and as society no longer feels obligated to apologize to the gay community for the wrongs we have done to them. 

 

There is one analogy I would like you to consider, sorry for the length, how Christianity is constantly being rubbed in my face. I don't mean on Worthy, and when I say "me" I mean all nonbelievers. For example, there are hundreds of Christian specials and TV shows about God and the Bible on every year. You see preachers all the time on TV, and come Christmas or Easter just about everything on TV is related to Christianity. If you live in an urban area there is a good chance there is a church with a cross on just about every street corner, with some parts of the country having more churches than schools. Almost every single politician has to say something positive about God, or God bless America, you realistically can't hold a public office without claiming to be a Christian with very few exceptions. Every now and then people will come to your door, uninvited, and just start talking about God and preaching to you, evangelizing. To say nothing of the malls, always decorating for Christian holidays, same with many small stores, heck the government even has a Christmas tree put up every single year. As a college student, almost every semester has at least one open air preacher get up in the middle of campus to yell and scream at us to convert. You might think you are safe inside on campus, but no, waiting to pounce are dozens of Christians that have it in their mind that they are going to go to every student individually and convince them that Christianity is true and to join their church. I am completely and utterly saturated with Christianity outside of Worthy, and I bet much more so than you are saturated with pro-gay sentiments. Now I am not angry at Christians or anything, I am merely using this as an analogy, food for thought, on how pro-gay groups are really in your face. 



#19
D-9

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On the whole I do see uncommon hatred towards homosexuals by Christians.

 

Depends on the christian. Our Lord Jesus told us to hate the sin, love the sinner. And that's something I abide by because if we aren't, then we sin through anger and I'm no better.

 

That is an attitude I can genuinely respect. +1 if I could



#20
kwikphilly

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Blessings Everyone!

     It is very funny that todays sermon given by my Pastor was addressing homosexuality...............as we welcome every single sinner with open arms at my church(lol-Christs church)our Pastor constantly reminds us that Jesus forgave us,welcomed us,loved us when we were most unlovable.

     I know it does seem like homosexuality is constantly shoved in our faces but we have to remember that although "sis is sin",these people are so bound by deceit,so blinded....the adulterer knows it is wrong to cheat on their spouse & that they have lusted,they are not going to try to convince the church that God made them that way....the homosexual has been thoroughly convinced by the enemy that God made them this way,they cannot see that it is the exact same sin as the fornicator,the adulterer,the drunkard...lust of the flesh.They want to be accepted as they are because they believe for them this is "natural"...............I suppose this is basically what was said in the OP

      I just have to agree with Gray Wolf....much too much airtime is given to this issue,period.....there are bigger fish to fry &  more important topics for the media to focus on              Let us keep all sinners & unbelievers in our prayers and fight the good fight with love and kindness,in Jesus Name!

                                                                                                                                           With love,in Christ-Kwik






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