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Birthplace of Jesus

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#1
Willamina

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Recently people have been trying to seperate fact from traditions concerning the birthplace of Jesus.
We are told that there was no room for them in the inn, only to learn that inn is not a good translation, and that it was in fact an upper room of a private home that was used to accomodate guests. Some propose that the Jews in Bethlehem had a courtyard and the lower terrace of it is where there more valuble animals were kept at night. It might have been there, within the court yard, that Jesus was born. The Jews had strong traditions of offering hospitality to stranger and especially to kin.

Another alternative theory has been raised by Cooper P. Abrams III on
bible-truth.org/BirthPlaceOfJesus.html

Using Micah 4:7-8 He believes the birthplace to be Migdal Edar which is located at Bethlehem. It is a watchtower for the temple sheep, the flocks for temple sacrifices at Jeruselem. It has a birthing room for expecting ewes to lamb that was kept ceremonially clean according to Rabbinical standards. It is possible the lambs were even wrapped in swaddling clothes. It was the shepherds of these sheep that came to worship Jesus.

I find this to be a fitting place for Jesus to be born, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. The stable of a family member also makes sense as the the stable was a room on the lower tier of a court yard, was protected, and a feeding trough would have been present. They were cleaned every day. But had Joseph found that to have been unsuitable it sounds as though the Migdal Edar, the tower of the flock, was both fitting and prophetic.

What do you think?

#2
ayin jade

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Interesting theory, but to me, since it cant be pinned down by scripture, it doesnt seem important. His birth, life, death and resurrection are important. Not what manger He was placed in.



#3
WillfromTexas

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I think if God wanted us to know more or had a deeper layered meaning it would have been easier to see.  Jesus being born in a stable, where lambs would be born, seems more appropriate to me.  He entered the world as a lowly servant on the level of the lowest so even the lowest could be saved.  Jesus and Mary were poor until they got the gifts from the magi which may have been 2 years later.

 

Everyone was headed to pay their taxes and that's why there was nowhere to sleep.  It probably was evening (if the star was present-although I have heard it could be seen in daytime too) and the first place anybody would go is an inn.  Seems unlikely to me Mary and Joseph would wander far or be of a social class to knock on rich people's doors or that they goto a watchtower with a pregnant woman in tow.

 

Remember the angels appeared to the shepherds which were considered some of the poorest overlooked people of the day.  God sent his message to the lowest and it rose to the highest.  While interesting theories above I feel that being born in the lowly circumstances shows us God's disregard for wealth and it being evidence of God's favor. 



#4
bopeep1909

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Yes,Jesus probably was not born in winter when we celebrate it.It is very possible that Jesus was not actually born in a manger but was set in manger after His birth.But it doesn't matter.What really matters is that He came to this Earth and was born for us.



#5
shiloh357

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Migdal Edder is probably correct.  It is in the area known as Ephratah.  Ephratah is where Ruth met Boaz and it is the same area where David watched over his father's sheep.  It is was always, for generations used an a field for Levitical shepherds who raised sheep for the temple sacrifices and for the Passover.

 

It was Levitical shepherds in the area of Migdal Edder that  heard the angel's message of the newborn King.  It is most likely that Jesus was born in a near by cave as there are caves in that area that were used as sheep pens.  The towers make sense and in fact would explain some of David's imagery of the Lord as his strong tower.  These were not poor shepherds. They were men who worked in the Temple and performed duties to assist the priests. It is consistent with the culture that Levites would have been tasked with raising and protecting the sacrificial lambs for the temple.

 

Alfred Edersheim and other Messianic Jewish authorities accept Migdal Edder ("tower of the flock") as the probable location.  It is unlikely that Jesus would have been born in a stable. 



#6
Guest_ninhao_*

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How interesting Willamina & Shiloh !



#7
MorningGlory

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Yes,Jesus probably was not born in winter when we celebrate it.It is very possible that Jesus was not actually born in a manger but was set in manger after His birth.But it doesn't matter.What really matters is that He came to this Earth and was born for us.

 

I'm sure He will be glad to tell us that story once He returns.  Until then, that's all that matters to me too, Bopeep.  :mgbowtie:



#8
MorningGlory

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How interesting Willamina & Shiloh !

 

Really!  I learned some new things today.  :mgbowtie: 



#9
bopeep1909

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Migdal Edder is probably correct.  It is in the area known as Ephratah.  Ephratah is where Ruth met Boaz and it is the same area where David watched over his father's sheep.  It is was always, for generations used an a field for Levitical shepherds who raised sheep for the temple sacrifices and for the Passover.

 

It was Levitical shepherds in the area of Migdal Edder that  heard the angel's message of the newborn King.  It is most likely that Jesus was born in a near by cave as there are caves in that area that were used as sheep pens.  The towers make sense and in fact would explain some of David's imagery of the Lord as his strong tower.  These were not poor shepherds. They were men who worked in the Temple and performed duties to assist the priests. It is consistent with the culture that Levites would have been tasked with raising and protecting the sacrificial lambs for the temple.

 

Alfred Edersheim and other Messianic Jewish authorities accept Migdal Edder ("tower of the flock") as the probable location.  It is unlikely that Jesus would have been born in a stable. 

That is interesting..  :mgcheerful:  It makes sense....



#10
other one

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Does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary were poor?



#11
bopeep1909

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I can not find anything that says that they were rich or poor.I am assuming that they were not wealthy.



#12
Willamina

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Thanks for joining me in a quest to satisfy curiosity. I also learned about the homes which were often a terraced court yard made of stone or sod like bricks. The sides housed small covered rooms. The high end was where they cooked in the yard and and slept. The low end housed the donkeys, oxen and milk animals' stable and storage for farm implements. The animals were taken in for the night and put out early in the morning. The little stable was cleaned daily as was the "commode". It sounds a lot like a spanish home with the open air court yard. There were some photos of excavations. It has been very eye opening to me, and my appreciation of their daily life has been so enhanced. They mentioned that some homes had a cave at the back and some had a basment of cavern rooms.

Whether this theory that the watch tower stables at Bethlehem is His birthplace is correct or not, it is very intriguing and I love the thought that our Lamb of God may have been born in a stable with the sacrificial lambs.

But your are right Jade, it matters not so much where He was born but that He was God born in human flesh--God with us.
Have a blessed Christmas season remembering our Father's precious gift of His Son.
Willa

#13
shiloh357

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Does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary were poor?

They were not rich.  When they got to the temple to dedicate Jesus at the end of Mary's purification, they offered up two turtledoves, which is the offering made by people on the low income scale.

 

It is likely that they were able to use the gold, frankinscense and myrrh (all very expensive things) to bankroll their stay in Egypt, but had little left over by the time they got back into Israel and back home to Nazareth.

 

Mary and Joseph would have been shunned by their community in Nazareth because Jesus was considered an illegitimate child, so Joseph would have found work in Sephoris just a hour or two's walk from Nazareth.  They were never rich, but they didn't starve either.   Galilee was the "blue collar" area of Israel and most people who lived there were low-income.



#14
ayin jade

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Galilee was the "blue collar" area of Israel and most people who lived there were low-income.

 

 

Thats not something you ever hear the word of faith preachers state.

 

 

 

 

Just in case it isnt clear, I do not follow the word of faith prosperity preachers/doctrines.



#15
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http://www.worthychr...ect-his-coming/

 

George's devotion (above) answers the question well. You guys should read them, they are amazing!



#16
GlidingWings

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The opening poster Williamina came up with a good post just at the right timing of Christmas. Everyone’s take is well said enough both Historical and of Biblical common sense reasoning. I don't have any better answer than the other posters as far as what is the more correct answer to lean on.

Being the Son of God He should have been born in a majestic temple. But by his purpose to be made lower than angels Jesus did not desire the worldly Kingdom. As in Matthew 4 He rejects Satan’s offer to to have them.

Being on the same side Joseph was a hard working carpenter. The work of a carpenter can include heavy labor and much planning out measurements and all such things all day at work. So rather I will place Joseph as”Middle class’ or the more average ordinary today like union workers.

Joseph had a respectable job not living in the Rockefeller area but neither the Abraham Cabin boy either. Jesus after all was had a well known family in the area of living. If anyone said where is Joseph the carpenter and his wife Mary I bet most anyone in that city could walk you to their house.

The same effect on Nazareth. I’m pretty sure Jesus and His early family did not dwell inside the house all day for Jesus was out and they told him. Jesus look and see your mother and brothers are here to see you. Jesus answered and told them. “My mother and my brothers are those who do the will of my Father.” Not only that we see Mary at the wedding where Jesus changed the water into the best wine. So if Mary and Jesus were invited they were certainly well known people in Bethlehem and Nazareth.

But where would Jesus birth actually be born on that day? And when was Jesus actually born? I think the when is a much more of a debate than exactly what location. If there are some who do not know December 25th is partly due to the Roman Catholic Church observation of the birth of Jesus. Because Mary also has to be an important figure in the church what Christmas means and how it began.

If you read from the Britannica Encyclopedia about the origin of Christmas you will learn it began as a winter solstice festival which also honors pagan gods with the decorations of these small trees. I believe it was also a festival of gifts. http://www.britannic...15686/Christmas

The Roman Catholic took Dec 25 to change it into the birth of Jesus on that day. Taking this pagan tree and gifts to match the Matthew 2 version of Jesus birth in Bethlehem. So we see the merge of winter season, festival observation and catholic transformation to fit this all as one story. Because if we truly celebrated Christmas in a Christian Church version people would have nativity’s in their living rooms instead of lit trees with a star on top.

The secular groups didn't want any part of Jesus and used Saint Nicholas an old Saint who was very cherishing at giving. . creating him as today Kris Kringle Santa Claus of the North Pole a fabled children story where no person any longer needed to acknowledge God any longer. . That’s why the word X mas replaced the name of Christ. X is also a Roman number as ten. Some say this X sometimes means six. So think about rated X movies. It is six in disguise.

Why share all this in terms of Jesus birth. Because RC makes Jesus to be a poor family that of a shepherd take as Catholics after all are very symbolic in their religion of worship prayer and practices. Mary is proclaimed to be perfectly and an innocent virgin all her life. While she is recognized as a mediator to Jesus himself now. The Shepard as being Gods sheep even as sheep is white wool another symbolic RC trait on Jesus image and birth.

So it is likely from the RC church we have mostly heard of the poor family version of this take and plus add the winter solstice Pagan origin with an incorrect Dec 25 date. Because they honor her conception the RC church honors the conception in December. What sense does that make that Jesus would be born 2 weeks 3 days later? http://en.wikipedia....late_Conception

My only guess is the book of 1 Samuel. Hannah had a child who name was called Samuel. While he was young he stayed close to home. But of at age he was brought into the city where the Holy Temple to use the sacrifices to dedicate his life to ordain this young child which she promised. That if she brings forth a child he would Samuel serve God all his life.

I believe they went to a place to see a Godly woman also a nurse who would help Mary to bring Jesus in the world. . . Then Jesus when He became of age was presented as Samuel that Jesus would do the will of His Father God.

They took the anointed oils of frankincense and myrrh to place this upon him making Him as King Lord and Savior. About the Gold it was often to give the gift of jewelry and gold to a high ranking king. Even as Solomon received gifts of gold. A gift of God to the Messiah because He was greater than Solomon for He Jesus as a baby called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is my belief on Jesus birth.



#17
GlidingWings

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If I'm correct isn't this the area where Boaz had lived? Wasn't he also from Judea and Ephrathite?
Boaz is in the line of Jesus who is the son of Rahab. Just imagine now what if Jesus was born on the same property
and the same field that Ruth was gathering the wheat and barley for the harvest.
This would be almost like a signature of Jesus because Boaz used to put the wheat in the threshing floor.
Which reminds me of this verse Matt.3:12

For in his hand is a winnowing fan. For he shall clean the threshing floor and he shall store the wheat in the ban
and the chaff in unquenchable fire.
Isn't that amzing that Boaz was an Ephratite a citizen of judea a rich man who owned the field.
I think it's very likely that if Jesus was born among the animals and he represents the winnowing fan separating the wheat and the tare that
he could have been born in the field among the animals.

And you know this kind of makes sense because Boaz is the father of Obed and Obed is the father of Jessie. Another poster here said he would be from the line of Jessie.
Jessie is the grandson of Boaz.
If that's the case don't you think that Jessie would have been in the inheirtance of the property because Boaz helped Ruth keep this field in the line of the inheirtance?

 



#18
Brother Paul

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Recently people have been trying to seperate fact from traditions concerning the birthplace of Jesus.
We are told that there was no room for them in the inn, only to learn that inn is not a good translation, and that it was in fact an upper room of a private home that was used to accomodate guests. Some propose that the Jews in Bethlehem had a courtyard and the lower terrace of it is where there more valuble animals were kept at night. It might have been there, within the court yard, that Jesus was born. The Jews had strong traditions of offering hospitality to stranger and especially to kin.

Another alternative theory has been raised by Cooper P. Abrams III on
bible-truth.org/BirthPlaceOfJesus.html

Using Micah 4:7-8 He believes the birthplace to be Migdal Edar which is located at Bethlehem. It is a watchtower for the temple sheep, the flocks for temple sacrifices at Jeruselem. It has a birthing room for expecting ewes to lamb that was kept ceremonially clean according to Rabbinical standards. It is possible the lambs were even wrapped in swaddling clothes. It was the shepherds of these sheep that came to worship Jesus.

I find this to be a fitting place for Jesus to be born, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. The stable of a family member also makes sense as the the stable was a room on the lower tier of a court yard, was protected, and a feeding trough would have been present. They were cleaned every day. But had Joseph found that to have been unsuitable it sounds as though the Migdal Edar, the tower of the flock, was both fitting and prophetic.

What do you think?

 

If so it is the best I have heard of....Thanks



#19
His_disciple3

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I haven't read all the post so this may have already been covered. I believe that the stable, what ever it was a man made cave in the side of a Mountain, as were many stables were, or your theories, but as one person has said, probably doesn't matter. But it goes back to Jesus fulfilling the law every jot and tittle:
Lev 23:42-44
42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.
KJV

Booth=
OT:5521

OT:5521 <START HEBREW>hK*s%
<END HEBREW> cukkah (sook-kaw'); fem of OT:5520; a hut or lair:


KJV - booth, cottage, covert, pavilion, tabernacle, tent.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


He was born in a stable/booth being there perhaps 7 days and on the 8th day we found Him at the temple, fulfilling another law

#20
kwikphilly

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Blessings Willa

      Very interesting & thank you for sharing these different theories,wherever our King of kings was born...the fact is that it was not in a place of earthly royalty or a castle of worldly kings & princes but that God humbled himself,left all his majesty to be reduced to servitude,for us..............because He so loves us!!!!!Praise & Glory to God !!!!!!!!

                                                                                                        With love,in Christ-Kwik






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