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Change the Word of God into a lie?

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#1
His_disciple3

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A new Christian while, studying the Word, stumbled across a set of verses, in scriptures that ; Jesus said he was not going somewhere but latter he went. now to this new Christian he saw this as Jesus telling a lie, for He said that he wasn't going but went anyway. Should this be allowed in our English translations of the Word of God. Upon some more study, it was discovered that up to 20 English translations has these scriptures worded as Jesus said he wasn't going But went! They do this by omitting one 3 lettered word "YET" This is not about which translation to use, but rather should the Word of God be Holy or does something like this matter? The translation the new Christian was using was the NIV, this is not a simply omitting a word during the translation process, nor an accidental leaving the word "YET" out. for the older versions of the NIV has the Word "yet" within these verses. But in their latest revision of the NIV, They have taken the Word out and added a footnote that some translations says. not Yet,  Look at the verses, and please not another translational debate, but I only want to know if it is important For the Word of God to have Jesus speaking the truth at all times.
 

John 7:8-10

.(H) 8 You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival, because my time(I) has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.

10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11 Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus(J) and asking, “Where is he?”

Footnotes:
a.John 7:1 Some manuscripts not have authority
b.John 7:8 Some manuscripts not yet
 
Another leading translation that has it worded like this is the NASB:

8 Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because (K)My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.10 But when His (L)brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret. 11 (M)So the Jews (N)were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, “Where is He?”

 

gateway Bible was used for Posting scriptures of reference verses.


Edited by His_disciple3, 26 December 2013 - 01:23 AM.


#2
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Here's the King James Version of the verse in question.

 

 

John 7

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come .



#3
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It could be argued that He simply changed His mind. 

 

I personally don't see anything that puts the character of Jesus in jeopardy. If a new christian abandons the faith over something so minor, they have bigger issues.

 

As always, just my opinion.



#4
WillfromTexas

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A new Christian or somebody honestly seeking faith in Jesus wouldn't nit pick the Bible in such a manner.  The only ones that bring things like this up are atheists.  Such as the 'Son of Man' verse in Matthew that's been labored over on this forum.  If you have faith and trust the Lord and the Bible when you see things like this you seek the deeper meaning.  I know Jesus is no liar so he obviously meant something else.

 

Jesus said he wasn't going to the feast yet- which indicates to me he intended to go.  He always observed the feasts so nothing could be held against him.  Kind of the same reason Jesus got baptised to make sure every letter of the law got fullfilled.

 

The Jews were ready to cease him but like he said it wasn't time yet.  I think it is kind of neat that Jesus went there clandestine and just watched people.  What was the creator of the universe thinking as he sat there unknown.  He also didn't want to seek fame and be hailed as a rock star of his time.  If people knew he was there he'd been the center of attention and not the feast.  Although halfway through the feast he went to the temple to teach- interesting.

 

I'm a big fan of the Amplified Bible and their translations.

 

John 7

Amplified Bible (AMP)

7 After this, Jesus went from place to place in Galilee, for He would not travel in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him.

2 Now the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was drawing near.

3 So His brothers said to Him, Leave here and go into Judea, so that [a]Your disciples [there] may also see the works that You do. [This is no place for You.]

4 For no one does anything in secret when he wishes to be conspicuous and secure publicity. If You [must] do these things [if You must act like this], show Yourself openly and make Yourself known to the world!

5 For [even] His brothers did not believe in or adhere to or trust in or rely on Him either.

6 Whereupon Jesus said to them, My time (opportunity) has not come yet; but any time is suitable for you and your opportunity is ready any time [is always here].

7 The world cannot [be expected to] hate you, but it does hate Me because I denounce it for its wicked works and reveal that its doings are evil.

8 Go to the Feast yourselves. I am not [yet] going up to the Festival, because My time is not ripe. [My term is not yet completed; it is not time for Me to go.]

9 Having said these things to them, He stayed behind in Galilee.

10 But afterward, when His brothers had gone up to the Feast, He went up also, not publicly [not with a caravan], but by Himself quietly and as if He did not wish to be observed.

11 Therefore the Jews kept looking for Him at the Feast and asking, Where can He be? [Where is that Fellow?]

12 And there was among the mass of the people much whispered discussion and hot disputing about Him. Some were saying, He is good! [He is a good Man!] Others said, No, He misleads and deceives the people [gives them false ideas]!

13 But no one dared speak out boldly about Him for fear of [the leaders of] the Jews.

14 When the Feast was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple [[b]court] and began to teach.

15 The Jews were astonished. They said, How is it that this Man has learning [is so versed in the sacred Scriptures and in theology] when He has never studied?

16 Jesus answered them by saying, My teaching is not My own, but His Who sent Me.

17 If any man desires to do His will (God’s pleasure), he will know (have the needed illumination to recognize, and can tell for himself) whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking from Myself and of My own accord and on My own authority.

18 He who speaks on his own authority seeks to win honor for himself. [He whose teaching originates with himself seeks his own glory.] But He Who seeks the glory and is eager for the honor of Him Who sent Him, He is true; and there is no unrighteousness or falsehood or deception in Him.

19 Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law. [If that is the truth] why do you seek to kill Me [for not keeping it]?

20 The crowd answered Him, You are possessed by a demon! [You are raving!] Who seeks to kill You?

21 Jesus answered them, I did one work, and you all are astounded.

22 Now Moses established circumcision among you—though it did not originate with Moses but with the previous patriarchs—and you circumcise a person [even] on the Sabbath day.

23 If, to avoid breaking the Law of Moses, a person undergoes circumcision on the Sabbath day, have you any cause to be angry with (indignant with, bitter against) Me for making a man’s whole body well on the Sabbath?

24 Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously.

25 Then some of the Jerusalem people said, Is not this the Man they seek to kill?

26 And here He is speaking openly, and they say nothing to Him! Can it be possible that the rulers have discovered and know that this is truly the Christ?

27 No, we know where this Man comes from; when the Christ arrives, no one is to know from what place He comes.

28 Whereupon Jesus called out as He taught in the temple [[c]porches], Do you know Me, and do you know where I am from? I have not come on My own authority and of My own accord and as self-appointed, but the One Who sent Me is true (real, genuine, steadfast); and Him you do not know!

29 I know Him [Myself] because I come from His [very] presence, and it was He [personally] Who sent Me.

30 Therefore they were eager to arrest Him, but no one laid a hand on Him, for His hour (time) had not yet come.

31 And besides, many of the multitude believed in Him [adhered to Him, trusted in Him, relied on Him]. And they kept saying, When the Christ comes, will He do [can He be expected to do] more miracles and produce more proofs and signs than what this Man has done?

32 The Pharisees learned how the people were saying these things about Him under their breath; and the chief priests and Pharisees sent attendants (guards) to arrest Him.

33 Therefore Jesus said, For a little while I am [still] with you, and then I go back to Him Who sent Me.

34 You will look for Me, but you will not [be able to] find Me; where I am, you cannot come.

35 Then the Jews said among themselves, Where does this Man intend to go that we shall not find Him? Will He go to the Jews who are scattered in the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?

36 What does this statement of His mean, You will look for Me and not be able to find Me, and, Where I am, you cannot come?

37 Now on the final and most important day of the Feast, Jesus stood, and He cried in a loud voice, If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink!

38 He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.

39 But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

40 Listening to those words, some of the multitude said, This is certainly and beyond doubt the Prophet!

41 Others said, This is the Christ (the Messiah, Anointed One)! But some said, What? Does the Christ come out of Galilee?

42 Does not the Scripture tell us that the Christ will come from the offspring of David and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?

43 So there arose a division and dissension among the people concerning Him.

44 Some of them wanted to arrest Him, but no one [ventured and] laid hands on Him.

45 Meanwhile the attendants (guards) had gone back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them, Why have you not brought Him here with you?

46 The attendants replied, Never has a man talked as this Man talks! [No mere man has ever spoken as He speaks!]

47 The Pharisees said to them, Are you also deluded and led astray? [Are you also swept off your feet?]

48 Has any of the authorities or of the Pharisees believed in Him?

49 As for this multitude (rabble) that does not know the Law, they are contemptible and doomed and accursed!

50 Then Nicodemus, who came to Jesus before at night and was one of them, asked,

51 Does our Law convict a man without giving him a hearing and finding out what he has done?

52 They answered him, Are you too from Galilee? Search [the Scriptures yourself], and you will see that no prophet comes (will rise to prominence) from Galilee.

53 [d]And they went [back], each to his own house.



#5
Parker1

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"My time has not come" - "yet". When He went, His time had come. No contradiction in my mind. Will is right, this is an atheist/straw man argument.



#6
FresnoJoe

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"My time has not come" - "yet". When He went, His time had come. No contradiction in my mind. Will is right, this is an atheist/straw man argument.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Because

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

 

Some

 

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

 

Will

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

 

Not

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

See

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

They

 

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Romans 10:8

 

Mock

 

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

 

And Mock

 

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

 

The

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:17-18

 

Truth

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

It's Almost

 

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Luke 5:45

 

As If The Devil

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c )

 

Waggles Their Tongue



#7
Fez

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This a very tired argument that atheists use over and over and has been answered over and over, as it has been here. Do a web search on the issue and you will get pages and pages of stuff on it.

#8
other one

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Personally, I don't see the problem here. It appears that Jesus did not want to be seen before he had a chance to go to the Temple. So he told his brothers it wasn't time for him to go yet and send his brothers on ahead of him. He came later in secret so that people would not know he was there until in the middle of the feast when he spoke and taught them in the Temple. Had he gone with his brothers they would've caught him before he got to the Temple and would not have been able to speak to the people.

 

 

I don't see this is Jesus lying.



 



#9
His_disciple3

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If we were talking about and normal/average man changing his mind, Ok!  But this is Jesus Christ, God the Son, He would know if He is going to the feast or not, at any time.  And It says "  I am not going to this festival" unless you leave the yet I am not yet going to this festival. But to say I am not going to THIS FESTIVAL and you go then that is a lie!



#10
His_disciple3

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But will's verse has the word yet in it, 8 Go to the Feast yourselves. I am not [yet] going up to the Festival, no problem here but to remove the word yet as the NIV did it would read: 8 Go to the Feast yourselves. I am not going up to the Festival, but then later He went I think now we have a problem!

#11
other one

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If we were talking about and normal/average man changing his mind, Ok!  But this is Jesus Christ, God the Son, He would know if He is going to the feast or not, at any time.  And It says "  I am not going to this festival" unless you leave the yet I am not yet going to this festival. But to say I am not going to THIS FESTIVAL and you go then that is a lie!

He knew his brothers would ask about him and he didn't want the people to know he was there until he was teaching in the temple.



#12
kwikphilly

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Blessings His_Disciple,

         To many of us that are mature Christians & have studied many versions,translations etc....it would seem very trivial because we understand the Scriptures & know "yet" is in the original text ....this is not so for a new reader of the Word & I do think it is important that the new translations have omitted this little 3 letter word(we are not to add or subtract anything from Gods Word,this is a command Duet4:22,12:32,Prov30:6,Gal3:15.Rev22:18-19)

         This is one reason why I try to encourage new Christians to read KJV to begin with and even the NKJV......

                                                                                       With love,in Christ-Kwik



#13
shiloh357

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If we were talking about and normal/average man changing his mind, Ok!  But this is Jesus Christ, God the Son, He would know if He is going to the feast or not, at any time.  And It says "  I am not going to this festival" unless you leave the yet I am not yet going to this festival. But to say I am not going to THIS FESTIVAL and you go then that is a lie!

 

 

But will's verse has the word yet in it, 8 Go to the Feast yourselves. I am not [yet] going up to the Festival, no problem here but to remove the word yet as the NIV did it would read: 8 Go to the Feast yourselves. I am not going up to the Festival, but then later He went I think now we have a problem!

 

It appears you are trying to manufacture a problem that isn't there.  Here is the context surrounding the event.

 

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him. Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.  Joh 7:1-10

 

The text tells that it is just a day or two before the beginning of the feast of tabernacles and Jesus was in Galilee because the religious leaders were seeking to take His life prematurely.  His brothers twice try to give HIm advice, but they do not believe Jesus is who He claims to be.  They think, based on other places in the NT, that Jesus is essentially out of His mind. The condescending tone of the words leaps off of the page.   They are not sincere in their suggestions, but rather are ridiculing Jesus.   They suggest that if Jesus is who He claims to be then He should be at the festival in Jerusalem (Judea) and make Himself known, after all everyone will be there.  

 

This is very similar in nature to one of the temptations that Satan leveled at Jesus:   "If you be the Son of God, turn these stones into bread."    His brothers were making the same kind of suggestion,  "if you are the Messiah, you have nothing to be afraid of.  Make yourself known publicly, perform miracles.  After all, what good is a Messiah if no one knows who you are??"

 

Jesus says that He is not going up to the feast because His time is not yet come.   The time for Him to go public was not yet come.  It doesn't come until the end of the festival on the last day.   Jesus waits until everyone else leaves and he arrives unnoticed in Jerusalem at the end of the festival of tabernacles and speaks out publicly on the last day of the festival at the water pouring ceremony at the end of water pouring ceremony.

 

It is clear from the overall context that Jesus' statements were not decieving at all.  Jesus wasn't going to the festival at the time His brothers suggested because it wasn't the right time and it wasn't the right thing to do at that time.   It shows that Jesus didn't bow to pressue to do things to satisfy the sensibilities of other people.   Jesus did things the way the Father wanted them done.  He did things at the right time, the time appointed by the Father. 

 

So there is no lie no deception on the part of Jesus. This accusation that Jesus lied is based taking John 7:8 out of its immediate context.  I find it surprising that a follower of Jesus would present Jesus as lying, as you are engaging in a direct assault on His integrity.



#14
His_disciple3

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No I have  not created a problem, I Ask people their opinion, if this was a problem to them. It is a problem to me. Your references verses has the word yet in the Phrase I go not yet to this festival , I have no problem with That, But to take yet out, Jesus says that He is not going to this festival, then later he goes. The NIV had the word yet in the phase but in their latest revision they pulled it out and placed it in a footnote, If Atheist are using this against the True Word of God, why give them the weapon.  If it reads "I go not to this festival" for my time has not yet come, He is not going to THIS festival. But perhaps a later festival ( NOT THIS FESTIVAL ), after His time has Come.  But then He goes to THIS festival.  


Edited by His_disciple3, 27 December 2013 - 06:53 PM.


#15
shiloh357

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No I have  not created a problem, I Ask people their opinion, if this was a problem to them. It is a problem to me. Your references verses has the word yet in the Phrase I go not yet to this festival , I have no problem with That, But to take yet out, Jesus says that He is not going to this festival, then later he goes. The NIV had the word yet in the phase but in their latest revision they pulled it out and placed it in a footnote, If Atheist are using this against the True Word of God, why give them the weapon.  If it reads "I go not to this festival" for my time has not yet come, He is not going to THIS festival. But perhaps a later festival ( NOT THIS FESTIVAL ), after His time has Come.  But then He goes to THIS festival.  

 

What are you calling "The true Word of God?" 



#16
His_disciple3

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any Word that is Inspired by God, any Word that claims to be the Word of God should be Truth, If Jesus said he was not going to THIS festival, but went later, I can't accept that in a translation that I would call The Word of God.

someone called "other one" posted this: He knew his brothers would ask about him and he didn't want the people to know he was there until he was teaching in the temple.

 

so not only do we have 20 translations having Jesus lie, we have someone explain that Jesus knew he was going but didn't want His brother to know, so we explain Jesus telling a lie by saying that He wanted to deceive his brothers. Call me old fashion or what, but this is just unacceptable for the One we label, as the Holy One, the righteous One, the One without sin. Now the new Christian that found this, took it to his pastor, both were using the NIV, But now with this being found they no longer use the NIV as their Bible the Holy Word of God, according to the article. and upon posting this thread we have heard that atheist knew of this for a long time now, and even the atheist knows that this should not be within Holy Scriptures.  



#17
shiloh357

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any Word that is Inspired by God, any Word that claims to be the Word of God should be Truth, If Jesus said he was not going to THIS festival, but went later, I can't accept that in a translation that I would call The Word of God.

someone called "other one" posted this: He knew his brothers would ask about him and he didn't want the people to know he was there until he was teaching in the temple.

 

so not only do we have 20 translations having Jesus lie, we have someone explain that Jesus knew he was going but didn't want His brother to know, so we explain Jesus telling a lie by saying that He wanted to deceive his brothers. Call me old fashion or what, but this is just unacceptable for the One we label, as the Holy One, the righteous One, the One without sin. Now the new Christian that found this, took it to his pastor, both were using the NIV, But now with this being found they no longer use the NIV as their Bible the Holy Word of God, according to the article. and upon posting this thread we have heard that atheist knew of this for a long time now, and even the atheist knows that this should not be within Holy Scriptures.  

 

Okay, I guess I need to rephrase my question.   Which translation(s) do you believe is the true Word of God?  Is there one particular translation that you trust as being the Word of God? 

 

 

Has it occurred to you that there may be a  cultural nuance to this story that you are missing?



#18
His_disciple3

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any Word that is Inspired by God, any Word that claims to be the Word of God should be Truth, If Jesus said he was not going to THIS festival, but went later, I can't accept that in a translation that I would call The Word of God.



someone called "other one" posted this: He knew his brothers would ask about him and he didn't want the people to know he was there until he was teaching in the temple.

so not only do we have 20 translations having Jesus lie, we have someone explain that Jesus knew he was going but didn't want His brother to know, so we explain Jesus telling a lie by saying that He wanted to deceive his brothers. Call me old fashion or what, but this is just unacceptable for the One we label, as the Holy One, the righteous One, the One without sin. Now the new Christian that found this, took it to his pastor, both were using the NIV, But now with this being found they no longer use the NIV as their Bible the Holy Word of God, according to the article. and upon posting this thread we have heard that atheist knew of this for a long time now, and even the atheist knows that this should not be within Holy Scriptures.

 
Okay, I guess I need to rephrase my question.   Which translation(s) do you believe is the true Word of God?  Is there one particular translation that you trust as being the Word of God? 
 
 
Has it occurred to you that there may be a  cultural nuance to this story that you are missing?


I use the KJB, I believe it is the most accurate, and figure if I was feeding Sheep, I could give them the best food I could, But I have sat under Pastors that have used other translations as well. Culture or Not. I think the Key word you guys are missing is THIS; Jesus said I go not to THIS festival, but later went. If you take the word yet out, it reads anyway you want to turn it(culture or no culture) That He said He was not going to THIS festival. But later went. If He went later It should read "I go not yet to this festival "

#19
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I use the KJB, I believe it is the most accurate, and figure if I was feeding Sheep, I could give them the best food I could, But I have sat under Pastors that have used other translations as well. Culture or Not. I think the Key word you guys are missing is THIS; Jesus said I go not to THIS festival, but later went. If you take the word yet out, it reads anyway you want to turn it(culture or no culture) That He said He was not going to THIS festival. But later went. If He went later It should read "I go not yet to this festival "

 

 

Hello His_disciple,

 

Tthe KJV translates the sentence almost identically to your acceptable version. Why is there an issue ?

 

Joh 7:8  Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
 



#20
His_disciple3

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I use the KJB, I believe it is the most accurate, and figure if I was feeding Sheep, I could give them the best food I could, But I have sat under Pastors that have used other translations as well. Culture or Not. I think the Key word you guys are missing is THIS; Jesus said I go not to THIS festival, but later went. If you take the word yet out, it reads anyway you want to turn it(culture or no culture) That He said He was not going to THIS festival. But later went. If He went later It should read "I go not yet to this festival "

 
Hello His_disciple,
 
Tthe KJV translates the sentence almost identically to your acceptable version. Why is there an issue ?
 
Joh 7:8  Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

have you not even read the opening post, or any other post??????? The NIV had the word "yet" in the older revisions, but at some time took the word "YET" out of the verse and put in in a footnote. and so it now reads:
John 7:8-10

.(H) 8 You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival, because my time(I) has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. with footnote saying that some translations has Yet here in this verse.

To say that You are Not Going to "THIS" festival, but later you go to "THIS festival is a lie. you said you weren't going but you went. if a version has to word "YET in it I have no problem. If when you were a child if you had told your parents that you were not going to a party, but later went You would be in trouble, for you lied to your parents, about going to the party. According to a article about this that I read it says that 20 versions do not have the Word yet in this phrase.

Go ye up unto this feast: [b]I go not up yet unto this feast
You go to the festival. I am not[b] going up to this festival

because my time(I) has not yet fully come. Has nothing to do with, when or if He is going to "THIS festival, But rather why He is not going yet to this festival or why He is not going to "THIS festival.




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