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Intercession by saints - is only God omnipotent?

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#1
OakWood

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I've mentioned this in a couple of posts, but it seems to have been bypassed, so I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on it.

 

Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe in the intercession of the saints. They communicate with people who have passed away and ask them to pray (or intercede) on their behalf.

 

My argument is that only God is omnipotent. When many people try to speak to Mary, for example, all at the same time - she cannot hear everybody at the same time, therefore it is impossible to know who received her message and who didn't.

As demons have been known to impersonate real people, then trying to communicate with those who have passed away is a dangerous thing to do. I believe that God forbids it:

 

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

 

Deuteronomy 18

 

That is why people should not be talking to St. Anthony, St. Francis or even their dead grandmother. This is the same as spiritualism which I also believe is a heresy.

 

Also, there is only one meant to be one mediator and that is Jesus Christ, so why pray to anyone else or ask anyone else?

 

Intercession, I believe is only for the living, by the living. I can ask you to pray for me and you can ask me to pray for you. There is no reason to ask a deceased relative to pray for you - in fact I believe that it would be wrong to do so.

Unless of course, I am wrong and it is not only God who is omnipotent!



#2
Sevenseas

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Right.  Jesus intercedes on our behalf according to the verse I posted below.  The Bible forbids contacting the dead or what some might call a seance.

 

I don't think those who want dead 'saints' to intercede for them believe that they are conducting a seance or what the Bible forbids.  However,  scripture

says there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.  (I Tim 2:5)

 

 

Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.  Romans 8:34



#3
enoob57

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And that court stretches into all the eternity with only one verdict- In Christ alone, through faith alone,
outworking His possession by His Works alone! Love, Steven

#4
OakWood

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Right.  Jesus intercedes on our behalf according to the verse I posted below.  The Bible forbids contacting the dead or what some might call a seance.

 

I don't think those who want dead 'saints' to intercede for them believe that they are conducting a seance or what the Bible forbids.  However,  scripture

says there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.  (I Tim 2:5)

 

 

Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.  Romans 8:34

 

If you look at the example of Greek Orthodox monks - they are constantly battling against demonic attacks. These are frequent occurrences.

Now I'm not saying that these monks are not saved. They believe in Jesus Christ and they are truth-seeking people. They usually have enough armor to fight off these attacks, but I do wonder why these attacks are so frequent.

I believe it is because they have a tendency to keep praying to saints (well, not exactly praying, but you know what I mean). I believe that they are frequently, but unwittingly calling up malevolent spirits.



#5
Sevenseas

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I don't know anything about that...and I'm not going to guess...plenty of Christians also have problems with demons and that usually involves sin.

 

Anyway, I simply agreed that  we should not pray to dead people or expect them to intercede for us.

 

I really just want to leave my contribution to this thread with that.

 

Thanks



#6
Izzel

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  1. 1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus


#7
Lek

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As an ex-Cathloic, I've never completely given up asking the departed saints to pray with me and for me. God would have no problem allowing them to hear our prayers if He so desired. If we ask a friend to pray for us or to pray along with us is he or she "interceding" for us? If a person here can pray for us, why not a departed saint who is with God face to face? I never thought of them interceding as Jesus does.

#8
enoob57

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I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

#9
Lek

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I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

 
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask anyone to pray for us?

#10
enoob57

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I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

 
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask anyone to pray for us?

I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

 
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask anyone to pray for us?

No not at all - my point of comment is to take prayers directly
to Christ whether for self or others :) Prayers are intimately bringing
Jesus and the Father into a need that you see for God's working to bring
about the glory unto His Son... Love, Steven

#11
Lek

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I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

 
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask anyone to pray for us?

I would consider the fact that it is written Jesus is our intercessor with The Father...
Why would you seek any other but Him in this regard? Love, Steven

 
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask anyone to pray for us?

No not at all - my point of comment is to take prayers directly
to Christ whether for self or others :) Prayers are intimately bringing
Jesus and the Father into a need that you see for God's working to bring
about the glory unto His Son... Love, Steven

Of course you're correct, but I think you misunderstood what I said. I'm not speaking of "praying" in that way, but rather asking as I would a friend on earth. There's nothing in scripture that says it is possible; it doesn't speak of it. Like I said, it's something I took from being Catholic. I always pictured the saints in heaven and the saints on earth together in the communion of the saints mentioned in the creeds.

#12
DRS81

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Intercession, I believe is only for the living, by the living. I can ask you to pray for me and you can ask me to pray for you. There is no reason to ask a deceased relative to pray for you - in fact I believe that it would be wrong to do so. Unless of course, I am wrong and it is not only God who is omnipotent!

 

Blessings WillowWood, I enjoyed reading OP..you are wise in your words...

Leviticus 19:31 “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.
 



#13
enoob57

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Probably better thought out in this regard- we can't be sure that they were saints or not

as only God knows the hearts...but we are sure of Christ and where He is at :thumbsup:



#14
just_fish

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Prayer is worship.

 

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone but GOD.

 

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to worship anyone but GOD.

 

God Bless



#15
gdemoss

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Prayer is worship.

 

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone but GOD.

 

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to worship anyone but GOD.

 

God Bless

 

You may want to rethink this.  Consider Lot when talking to his townsmen.

 

Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

 

I believe the word pray has a much broader and roomier definition that worship though it can obviously be a form of worship without a doubt.

 

As per the OP, I don't have a conclusion on the matter of praying to the saints specifically.  I don't do it.  

 

Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Jhn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
 
Jesus said once I have loved him because i believed that he came out of God that I could pray directly to the father and be heard.  Why would I care to go to the spirit of one who lived as I now am for intercession?  Why would I even argue the point with another when the text instructed me to go straight to the father?  I have and have found that I am answered.  I will take a pass on the saints.


#16
Lek

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Prayer is worship.
 
Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone but GOD.
 
Nowhere in Scripture are we told to worship anyone but GOD.
 
God Bless
[/quote]
 
You may want to rethink this.  Consider Lot when talking to his townsmen.
 
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
 
I believe the word pray has a much broader and roomier definition that worship though it can obviously be a form of worship without a doubt.
 
As per the OP, I don't have a conclusion on the matter of praying to the saints specifically.  I don't do it.  
 
Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Jhn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
 
Jesus said once I have loved him because i believed that he came out of God that I could pray directly to the father and be heard.  Why would I care to go to the spirit of one who lived as I now am for intercession?  Why would I even argue the point with another when the text instructed me to go straight to the father?  I have and have found that I am answered.  I will take a pass on the saints.

I think you misunderstand my meaning. Before I pray at night and in the morning I ask the saints in heaven in general to pray with me to the Father and to pray for me. It's no more asking for intercession than asking a friend or family member to pray for me. This comes from my belief that the communion of the saints mentioned in the creeds applies to all the saints who live on the earth now and before. I see no reason why the communion must be broken when a person leaves this earth. God certainly could allow them to hear our requests if He desired. Maybe I'm off-base on this. I never looked at this as divination or the sort. Maybe I'm wrong. I brought this with me from the Catholic church and never felt compelled to stop the practice. I am an evangelical christian. I do appreciate the input from you all.



#17
donfish06

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Probably better thought out in this regard- we can't be sure that they were saints or not

as only God knows the hearts...but we are sure of Christ and where He is at :thumbsup:

 

Never thought of it this way. Like it.



#18
donfish06

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You may want to rethink this.  Consider Lot when talking to his townsmen.

 

Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

 

I believe the word pray has a much broader and roomier definition that worship though it can obviously be a form of worship without a doubt.

 

As per the OP, I don't have a conclusion on the matter of praying to the saints specifically.  I don't do it.  

 

Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Jhn 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
 
Jesus said once I have loved him because i believed that he came out of God that I could pray directly to the father and be heard.  Why would I care to go to the spirit of one who lived as I now am for intercession?  Why would I even argue the point with another when the text instructed me to go straight to the father?  I have and have found that I am answered.  I will take a pass on the saints.

 

 

Lot is not praying to the city folk, he was praying the city folk. They were right there in front of him. To "pray" someone is to beseech them. You can beseech anyone. To pray "to" means to communicate with God:

 

Joh 16:26  At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 
 
pray:
G2065
ἐρωτάω
erōtaō
er-o-tah'-o
Apparently from G2046 (compare G2045); to interrogate; by implication to request: - ask, beseech, desire, intreat, pray. Compare G4441.
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

 

pray:
G4336
προσεύχομαι
proseuchomai
pros-yoo'-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2172; to pray to God, that is, supplicate, worship: - pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer.
 
These words clearly don't mean the same thing. And there is nowhere in scripture that shows that the dead in Christ can hear us talking them, so you cannot "beseech" them, either. You are not to communicate with the dead. 
 
If you have the right relationship with Jesus then there would be no reason to pray to anyone else anyway, because he would trump all. Its just wrong all the way around.


#19
enoob57

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Of course you're correct, but I think you misunderstood what I said. I'm not speaking of "praying" in that way, but rather asking as I would a friend on earth. There's nothing in scripture that says it is possible; it doesn't speak of it. Like I said, it's something I took from being Catholic. I always pictured the saints in heaven and the saints on earth together in the communion of the saints mentioned in the creeds.

I just wish to issue a thought to consider...
The war that we are in has a distinct beginning with sin and in all of us that
beginning was in Adam then realized in ourselves when time was brought to the
fullness of our begin... thus our tendency is to cherish that which is wrong
by sentimentality of that begin! The encouragement of God is to renew all
aspects of our begin into a subjugation to His Word
2 Cor 5:17-19
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have
passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God,
who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the
ministry of reconciliation,
NKJV

this above dictates a total reorganizing of thought and the actual determined
process that God 'IS' in the process of-> the continuance of Life in Him by, in
and through the revealed Word.... this is how we are to separate ourselves from
worldly error of first begin! :) Love, Steven

#20
Butch5

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I've mentioned this in a couple of posts, but it seems to have been bypassed, so I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on it.

 

Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe in the intercession of the saints. They communicate with people who have passed away and ask them to pray (or intercede) on their behalf.

 

My argument is that only God is omnipotent. When many people try to speak to Mary, for example, all at the same time - she cannot hear everybody at the same time, therefore it is impossible to know who received her message and who didn't.

As demons have been known to impersonate real people, then trying to communicate with those who have passed away is a dangerous thing to do. I believe that God forbids it:

 

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

 

Deuteronomy 18

 

That is why people should not be talking to St. Anthony, St. Francis or even their dead grandmother. This is the same as spiritualism which I also believe is a heresy.

 

Also, there is only one meant to be one mediator and that is Jesus Christ, so why pray to anyone else or ask anyone else?

 

Intercession, I believe is only for the living, by the living. I can ask you to pray for me and you can ask me to pray for you. There is no reason to ask a deceased relative to pray for you - in fact I believe that it would be wrong to do so.

Unless of course, I am wrong and it is not only God who is omnipotent!

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture






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