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When Satan Fell: Ezekiel 28: 12-17 & Isaiah 14: 12-14

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#1
shiloh357

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"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.

Eze 28:12-17

 

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Isa 14:12-14

 

The issue being raised in this thread is WHEN the fall of Satan took place.   There are some who believe the fall of Satan took place in a prior earth, but not only is there no biblical evidence or even an implication made in Scripture about a prior earth, the passages above clearly place the fall of Satan AFTER creation of the earth mentioned in Genesis 1. 

 

There is some ambiguity about what the, "stones of fire" refer to.  What we can see is that the Garden in Eden must have been a very large place due to the fact that it contained at last one mountain, referred to as the mountain of God.  The word for Garden in Hebrew is a word that simply means "paradise."

 

In Bible times gardens were enclosed areas full of all kinds of exotic plants and trees some bearing edible fruit.  Usually a "garden" was reserved for kings.  The Garden in the eastern region known as Eden was a place of exquisite beauty with all of the precious stones mentioned.   It was an orchard on steroids, having more than anyone could need.  The Bible says that God looked at all He created and said, "Tov-Meod."   "Very good."   The phrase is emphatic in Hebrew and means that it was perfect at every point.  God ceased because it was as good as it could possibly be.

 

Had Satan fell prior the end of the sixth day, had he been on the earth during the creative process, there would not have been any way God could have made the declaration of "Tov-Meod."   Satan fell to the earth and keep in mind that the entire earth was not pristine like the Garden in Eden.  The Garden in Eden was originally meant to be expanded as men worked it.  Satan was cast out of heaven and fell down to the earth.   That Adam into the Garden allowed Satan was a harbinger of the destruction to come.  

 

Satan fell, I believe, AFTER Adam and Eve were created.   Now keep in mind that we don't know how much time transpired between Adam and Eve's creation and Satan's first appearance in Genesis 3:1.   The text seems to skip over that information because it really isn't that important, and focuses on what Satan did in terms of trying to instill the same pride in Adam and Eve as he had when he thought he would be a god.   Satan successfully got Adam to feel as though he could be god and know all things good and evil.

So that is my opening position on the timing and locative sphere of satan's fall.



#2
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Good job in OP! I'd also like to emphasize...

 

Genesis 3/Serpent, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are all talking about Lucifer/Dragon/Satan/Devil/Serpent/Antichrist. Keep an eye on blue/red words and phrases...

 

Genesis 3 Overview - God is saying here that sin will eventually kill us. People die every day because we live in a fallen and sinful world. God brings life/Satan serpent brings death. The serpent who is the devil lied to Eve and said she will not die. Eve died, she is no longer with us.

 

Genesis 3 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
 

Ezekiel 28:1-19 Overview - Again, Lucifer's sin is pride. Notice it says 'In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god". Only an angel from the kingdom of God can be described as perfect. Perfect in wisdom and perfect in beauty is describing the antichrist. The antichrist is a word that describes who Satan is. For example, christians use the word Father to describe God, because God is a father to them. Notice (1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.) Also notice the words fallen, threw you, hurled, and cast down....

 

Ezekiel 28 1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.3 Are you wiser than Daniel ? Is no secret hidden from you? 4 By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself and amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.5 By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud.6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'Because you think you are wise, as wise as a god, 7 I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless of nations; they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom and pierce your shining splendor.8 They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die a violent death in the heart of the seas.9 Will you then say, "I am a god," in the presence of those who kill you? You will be but a man, not a god, in the hands of those who slay you.10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners. I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' " 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "
 

Isaiah 14:12-23 Overview - To understand that this is Lucifer falling from heaven you would have to go to (Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.) Lucifer's sin is also pride. Notice it says Most High. He wanted to be God, and rebelled..thus Lucifer falling from heaven. Again, the antichrist is shown in Isaiah 14:14...

 

Isaiah 14 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb.19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again. 21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities. 22 "I will rise up against them," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors, her offspring and descendants," declares the LORD. 23 "I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD Almighty.



#3
ENOCH2010

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The fall was between the creation and the flood. I could tell you to read about it in a book, but that book isn't included in the cannon.



#4
Reformed Baptist

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The fall was between the creation and the flood. I could tell you to read about it in a book, but that book isn't included in the cannon.

is that because it isn't scripture - and therefore not a reliable source? 



#5
bopeep1909

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The fall was between the creation and the flood. I could tell you to read about it in a book, but that book isn't included in the cannon.

What is the book?



#6
Reformed Baptist

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The issue being raised in this thread is WHEN the fall of Satan took place.   

 

An interesting point to speculate on - but in my opinion we are not given sufficient detail and clarity to be dogmatic about it. 

 

 

There are some who believe the fall of Satan took place in a prior earth, but not only is there no biblical evidence or even an implication made in Scripture about a prior earth, the passages above clearly place the fall of Satan AFTER creation of the earth mentioned in Genesis 1.

 

 

I agree

 

 

The word for Garden in Hebrew is a word that simply means "paradise."

 

 

I disagree with this, the term is גַּן (gan) and, just like all words it has a semantic range, for example it can be used figuratively to speak of a chaste women, it has the sense of an enclosed and ordered space. I wonder if you are thinking in terms of עֵ֖דֶן but again that does mean paradise, rather it has the sense of pleasure or delight,

 

When we read of the Garden of Eden, we are reading of a special place that God created in the land of Eden (Gen 2:8) specially for man to dwell in. simply put we are reading that God created a special garden in a delightful place, there is no reason to believe that Eden refers to anything less then the entire land mass that God had caused to appear when he gathered the waters below the firmament together (Gen 1:9)   

 

 

Had Satan fell prior the end of the sixth day, had he been on the earth during the creative process, there would not have been any way God could have made the declaration of "Tov-Meod."

 

 

I am not following the logic here my friend, In Gen 1:31 God declares that his entire creation, including the heavens (v1) was very good - where Satan was physically present at that time is not relevant, for the declaration of God is all inclusive, both the spiritual and physical reality were very good. So, whilst I agree that Satan cannot have fallen before creation was finished I am think the route to that conclusion is somewhat simpler then you have made it. 

 

 

 Satan fell to the earth and keep in mind that the entire earth was not pristine like the Garden in Eden.  

 

 

 

The whole earth was very good, remember this declaration of God comes before we read of the garden being created and planted by God, it is not exclusive to the garden - the whole earth and indeed the whole of creation was very good.

 

 

 The Garden in Eden was originally meant to be expanded as men worked it.

 

 

 

From where does one draw that conclusion? It might well be the case, but i don't see it in the word of God. 

 

 

Satan fell, I believe, AFTER Adam and Eve were created.

 

 

Without doubt, for that is the clear implication of scripture  :D

 

 

  Now keep in mind that we don't know how much time transpired between Adam and Eve's creation and Satan's first appearance in Genesis 3:1.

 

 

Agreed, though I think the implication is that the time was short, for example Adam hadn't even consummated his marriage to Women at this point - or at least not when she was ovulating! So it cannot have been long after creation - possibly even the first seventh day.  

 

 

The text seems to skip over that information because it really isn't that important, and focuses on what Satan did in terms of trying to instill the same pride in Adam and Eve as he had when he thought he would be a god.   Satan successfully got Adam to feel as though he could be god and know all things good and evil.

 

 

 

Ok, I agree with the thrust of that. 

 

Satan must have fallen after day 6 and before the time of Gen 3:1 - unless Gen 3 is actually his fall? Maybe Gen 3 and the role he played in corrupting God's creation was part and parcel of his rebellion? I don't know, I am just surmising there, but the standard (orthodox) answer is as expressed above, in agreement with your conclusion  

 



#7
Izzel

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satan fell before Adam and Eve sinned

 

satan sin in the heavens was cast out and tempted Eve and they sin this all happen very quick the fall of satan  and the fall of man



#8
bopeep1909

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Satans fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18.Those passages do not specifically say when the fall occurred.The angels were created before the earth Job 38:4-7.Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.Whether Satans fall occurred a few minutes,hours or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden,Scripture does not specifically say.



#9
ENOCH2010

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The fall was between the creation and the flood. I could tell you to read about it in a book, but that book isn't included in the cannon.

What is the book?

 

The book of Enoch



#10
bopeep1909

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The fall was between the creation and the flood. I could tell you to read about it in a book, but that book isn't included in the cannon.

What is the book?

 

The book of Enoch

 

The book of Enoch is falsely attributed.If you read these books they might be intresting but fallible.



#11
ENOCH2010

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That may be true, but the writers of the Bible quoted it.



#12
Spock

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Ezekiel 28

13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b
Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.



Spock's thoughts: it sure sounds like these events occurred way before the time of Adam and Eves stay in the Garden of Eden. Here, he was the cherub, not some lowly serpent. He was anointed the guardian cherub with a crown which signifies authority. I do not believe Lucifer fell during some period between day one to day six. This doesn't seem logical to me.

#13
Reformed Baptist

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That may be true, but the writers of the Bible quoted it.

Do they? One can only assume that you are referring to Jude 1:14 which contains a statement similar to one found in the book of Enoch. However the idea that Jude quotes Enoch is simply an assumption, there are problems with the view, and there are other possibilities. 

 

One problem is that it is not an exact quote, the book of Enoch says: “Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which thesinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.” therefore it is possible that both works are simply reporting the same oral tradition that has been passed down. In which case it's inclusion in Jude simply authenticates that single tradition. 

 

There are other possibilities, Jude may simply have drawn his illusion from the same Old Testament texts that the writer of Enoch did, eg Deut 33:2, or as we have no early copies of the book of Enoch in Greek, It seems to have originating in Ethiopia and to have been originally written in Ge'ez so maybe the later scribes that translated it into Greek were guilty of a little harmonization between the text of Enoch and Jude? Being as familiar with Jude as the probably were?

 

Now, even if Jude did actually quote Enoch, what does that actually prove? It only proves that the words he quoted are authentic it does nothing to establish the whole book as being inspired. Think about like this, everyday people are quoting other people positively, does that mean that the one quoting is endorsing everything that person has ever said, or does it simply mean that one quote is useful for the speakers/ writers purpose? 






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