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Jesus Christ second coming? or third? or maybe fourth?

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#1
JustinM

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I believe if you look at the reasons for Jesus coming and returning to earth you will find he has only 2 reasons for descending to Earth.

 

1st Coming:  To be born, live, suffer, and die for our sins.

2nd Coming:  To bring justice to the world and reconcile the Jews to YHWH.

 

While the holy spirit is in the world, before it is recalled to Heaven (rapture) it's purpose is to reconcile all peoples to God.  Once the holy spirit has departed, the only ones left to be reconciled are the Jewish people, who will become Christians before it's all over.

 

What does the 7 years and 3 1/2 years have to do with any of this?

 

For 7 years the world will be left alone to govern itself.  It will be completely secular in how it is governed.  But, mankind will not be able to govern itself in this manner for more than 3 1/2 years, after that it will surrender its sovereignty to a world leader that will become a tyrant.  This being will combine the tyranny of a theocracy with the tyranny of a dictatorship and the world will be forced to worship him.

 

For 3 1/2 years this tyranny will have absolute and total power over the individual.  People will resist and will be persecuted for not conforming to this New Order.

 

Yet, a remnant who had to see before believing, will fight against this tyranny and will witness for the Holy Spirit, many will be reconciled to YHVH, too many more will not.

 

At some point, Christ will return for the second time and end it all.


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#2
wingnut-

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A common argument that disputes the rapture is

" How many times is Christ coming back? It is his SECOND COMING, not his THIRD. There is no rapture because this will make it his THIRD coming"

or something around those lines. Where in the bible does it state how many times he is to come back? Give me a number.. With in the four gospel accounts we already see how Jesus Christ ascended up to heaven and came back...

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So here we have Jesus telling Mary not to touch Jesus Christ because he has not ascended yet. Why can she not touch him? I don't know. Maybe because He is about to perform the duty of they High Priest in the Heavenly Temple that is made with out hands and it will defile it(Hebrews 9). But, She cannot touch Jesus.

Mark 16:12 - After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

So Jesus Christ is either a shape shifter, or He ascended to the Father and came back and now he can be touched.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ is telling them to touch him or handle him when Mary could not because he has not yet ascended. Him having not yet ascended apparently is what was keeping him from being touched.

John 20:27 - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Again, Jesus is telling Thomas to touch him, when Mary could not earlier.

Matthew 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by his feet, and worshipped him.

Here they are actually touching him. They are holding his feet.

So here we have Jesus ascending to the Father which is in Heaven(secretly), and then coming back to the disciples.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And of course, he is taken up. again...

I believe that Jesus Christ's coming at the end of Jacobs Trouble has no restraints on Jesus Christ rapturing his Church. The rapture is a mystery, His coming at the end is not a mystery.

I think you are forgetting something that Paul wrote, the rapture is not supposed to be a mystery to us.

 

I Thess. 5:But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

 

The rapture should only be a surprise to unbelievers, because scripture tells us exactly where it happens.  For starters, ask yourself what the rapture actually is.  If you read the accounts given in I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15, it seems obvious to me that what the rapture really is, is a resurrection.  In I Thess. we are told that the dead in Christ rise first, when dead bodies rise, it is a resurrection.  I Cor. 15 is an entire chapter about resurrection, there is no question that this is a resurrection being spoken of, this is what the rapture is.  John tells us precisely where the first resurrection occurs.

 

Revelation 20:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

The fact that this is the first resurrection does not allow for any other resurrection to come before it.  If people are honest with themselves about what a resurrection is, then they will acknowledge that both I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 are resurrections.  John does not allow for any other resurrection except the one which follows the millenial kingdom.

 

This also aligns with the 6th wave of judgements, the trumpet, seal, and bowl coincide with each other, these events are occurring at the same time.  The 5th and 7th also go together as you can see when comparing them to one another.  It is the sixth seal which contains the sign Jesus gives for His coming, and we see this take place during the 6th bowl.

 

Revelation 16:

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

This is a direct quote from Jesus, He says I come, not someone else comes.  It comes out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with what precedes or follows it.  There is only one rational explanation as to why it is there, and that is because this is when He is coming.  God does not do tricks, He does not do false signs, the bible is His Word, not the enemies.

 

Jesus attached the sign of the thief to the rapture Himself in Matthew 24, both Paul and John follow His lead and use this sign as well.  The passage in Matthew 24 is the best representation of the rapture that we have, and it leaves no question in my mind.  Paul's letter in I Thess. is a summary of what Jesus tells us in Matthew, as can be seen when you compare the two side by side, Paul uses the exact same symbolism as well.

 

Matthew 24:That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

When Jesus invokes this sign in Revelation, the very sign He gives for it, it leaves no question as to when this will happen.  Again, this is God's Word, the enemy can't plant deceptions inside of it.  This is why we are told repeatedly to test everything against scripture, because the scripture is truth.  Scripture confirms this timing with the sixth trumpet as well, read this beautifully illustrated version of the rapture from this perspective and compare.

 

Revelation 14:

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

Here we see Jesus, sitting on a cloud, waiting for the Father to give Him the word to return, precisely where we are told we meet Him.  The following verses of this passage confirm the timing with what we saw above.

 

Revelation 14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

We see that God the Father is in charge of the judgements being dished out, just as scripture has always indicated, and as has always been the case, God uses the angels to execute judgement.  The fact that the angels are the ones carrying out the judgement leaves little doubt that this is happening as the tribulation is going on.  We see the above events described with the 6th trumpet.

 

Revelation 9:

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

 

This ties into the fall of Babylon, we see the reference to the great winepress of God's wrath mentioned, and also we see the mention of a very specific day and hour.  Jesus also spoke of this very specific day and hour in Matthew 24, and it comes up in other places as well, particularly take note of Revelation 18.  It begins by mentioning the day, and then talks about this very specific hour.

 

Revelation 18:Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

 

Revelation 18:10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    you mighty city of Babylon!
In
one hour your doom has come!’

 

Revelation 18:16 and cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
    and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In
one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

 

Revelation 18:19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
In
one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

 

This is the same point at which the anti-christ and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and every single thing points to this exact same time in scripture.  It also coincides with this in Revelation 11.

 

Revelation 11:

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

The two witnesses are also part of the first resurrection, and the voice from heaven saying, "Come up here" is not just something the two witnesses will hear, we will all hear it.  It is a very specific hour, within a very specific day.  The day is when He comes, the hour is the last hour of life on this planet as we know it.  This is the very specific hour we are told we will be kept from in Revelation 3:10, and as promised, Jesus will take us out just before it arrives.

 

Also in those same passages from Revelation 18, we see, woe, woe.  Two woes, confirmed at the conclusion of chapter 11.  We already know that the three woes are attached to the final three trumpets, we see the first woe after the fifth trumpet, we see the second woe following the two witnesses, and the third woe is a result of the 7th judgements.

 

Revelation 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

 

The fifth judgements are all linked to the rise of the anti-christ, the 6th revolve around the return of our Lord and the staging for Armageddon, and the 7th revolve around the fury of God's wrath.  If you compare them to each other, this is obvious, and in fact, we see that the 6th and 7th judgements both contain events that overlap, such as the mountains and islands being removed, this can only happen once.  These final judgements happen right on top of each other, in one hour.

 


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#3
veryberry

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A common argument that disputes the rapture is

" How many times is Christ coming back? It is his SECOND COMING, not his THIRD. There is no rapture because this will make it his THIRD coming"

or something around those lines. Where in the bible does it state how many times he is to come back? Give me a number.. With in the four gospel accounts we already see how Jesus Christ ascended up to heaven and came back...

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So here we have Jesus telling Mary not to touch Jesus Christ because he has not ascended yet. Why can she not touch him? I don't know. Maybe because He is about to perform the duty of they High Priest in the Heavenly Temple that is made with out hands and it will defile it(Hebrews 9). But, She cannot touch Jesus.

Mark 16:12 - After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

So Jesus Christ is either a shape shifter, or He ascended to the Father and came back and now he can be touched.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ is telling them to touch him or handle him when Mary could not because he has not yet ascended. Him having not yet ascended apparently is what was keeping him from being touched.

John 20:27 - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Again, Jesus is telling Thomas to touch him, when Mary could not earlier.

Matthew 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by his feet, and worshipped him.

Here they are actually touching him. They are holding his feet.

So here we have Jesus ascending to the Father which is in Heaven(secretly), and then coming back to the disciples.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And of course, he is taken up. again...

I believe that Jesus Christ's coming at the end of Jacobs Trouble has no restraints on Jesus Christ rapturing his Church. The rapture is a mystery, His coming at the end is not a mystery.

I think you are forgetting something that Paul wrote, the rapture is not supposed to be a mystery to us.

 

I Thess. 5:But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

 

The rapture should only be a surprise to unbelievers, because scripture tells us exactly where it happens.  For starters, ask yourself what the rapture actually is.  If you read the accounts given in I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15, it seems obvious to me that what the rapture really is, is a resurrection.  In I Thess. we are told that the dead in Christ rise first, when dead bodies rise, it is a resurrection.  I Cor. 15 is an entire chapter about resurrection, there is no question that this is a resurrection being spoken of, this is what the rapture is.  John tells us precisely where the first resurrection occurs.

 

Revelation 20:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

The fact that this is the first resurrection does not allow for any other resurrection to come before it.  If people are honest with themselves about what a resurrection is, then they will acknowledge that both I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 are resurrections.  John does not allow for any other resurrection except the one which follows the millenial kingdom.

 

This also aligns with the 6th wave of judgements, the trumpet, seal, and bowl coincide with each other, these events are occurring at the same time.  The 5th and 7th also go together as you can see when comparing them to one another.  It is the sixth seal which contains the sign Jesus gives for His coming, and we see this take place during the 6th bowl.

 

Revelation 16:

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

This is a direct quote from Jesus, He says I come, not someone else comes.  It comes out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with what precedes or follows it.  There is only one rational explanation as to why it is there, and that is because this is when He is coming.  God does not do tricks, He does not do false signs, the bible is His Word, not the enemies.

 

Jesus attached the sign of the thief to the rapture Himself in Matthew 24, both Paul and John follow His lead and use this sign as well.  The passage in Matthew 24 is the best representation of the rapture that we have, and it leaves no question in my mind.  Paul's letter in I Thess. is a summary of what Jesus tells us in Matthew, as can be seen when you compare the two side by side, Paul uses the exact same symbolism as well.

 

Matthew 24:That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

When Jesus invokes this sign in Revelation, the very sign He gives for it, it leaves no question as to when this will happen.  Again, this is God's Word, the enemy can't plant deceptions inside of it.  This is why we are told repeatedly to test everything against scripture, because the scripture is truth.  Scripture confirms this timing with the sixth trumpet as well, read this beautifully illustrated version of the rapture from this perspective and compare.

 

Revelation 14:

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

Here we see Jesus, sitting on a cloud, waiting for the Father to give Him the word to return, precisely where we are told we meet Him.  The following verses of this passage confirm the timing with what we saw above.

 

Revelation 14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

We see that God the Father is in charge of the judgements being dished out, just as scripture has always indicated, and as has always been the case, God uses the angels to execute judgement.  The fact that the angels are the ones carrying out the judgement leaves little doubt that this is happening as the tribulation is going on.  We see the above events described with the 6th trumpet.

 

Revelation 9:

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

 

This ties into the fall of Babylon, we see the reference to the great winepress of God's wrath mentioned, and also we see the mention of a very specific day and hour.  Jesus also spoke of this very specific day and hour in Matthew 24, and it comes up in other places as well, particularly take note of Revelation 18.  It begins by mentioning the day, and then talks about this very specific hour.

 

Revelation 18:Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

 

Revelation 18:10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    you mighty city of Babylon!
In
one hour your doom has come!’

 

Revelation 18:16 and cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
    and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In
one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

 

Revelation 18:19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
In
one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

 

This is the same point at which the anti-christ and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and every single thing points to this exact same time in scripture.  It also coincides with this in Revelation 11.

 

Revelation 11:

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

The two witnesses are also part of the first resurrection, and the voice from heaven saying, "Come up here" is not just something the two witnesses will hear, we will all hear it.  It is a very specific hour, within a very specific day.  The day is when He comes, the hour is the last hour of life on this planet as we know it.  This is the very specific hour we are told we will be kept from in Revelation 3:10, and as promised, Jesus will take us out just before it arrives.

 

Also in those same passages from Revelation 18, we see, woe, woe.  Two woes, confirmed at the conclusion of chapter 11.  We already know that the three woes are attached to the final three trumpets, we see the first woe after the fifth trumpet, we see the second woe following the two witnesses, and the third woe is a result of the 7th judgements.

 

Revelation 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

 

The fifth judgements are all linked to the rise of the anti-christ, the 6th revolve around the return of our Lord and the staging for Armageddon, and the 7th revolve around the fury of God's wrath.  If you compare them to each other, this is obvious, and in fact, we see that the 6th and 7th judgements both contain events that overlap, such as the mountains and islands being removed, this can only happen once.  These final judgements happen right on top of each other, in one hour.

 

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a first resurrection?  He was a "first fruits"  I think its possible that the first resurrection is associated with harvest times....First fruits(Jesus Christ), The main Harvest(Rapture of the Church), Then the gleanings(tribulation saints).

 

Do you believe that there will be survivors of the time of Jacobs trouble, to replenish the earth through the 1000yr reign of Jesus Christ?  Or is all the dead in Christ, and all the survivors who did not receive the mark or his number, or worship the beast going to be changed at the end of the time of Jacobs Trouble?


Edited by veryberry, 12 January 2014 - 04:36 PM.

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#4
wingnut-

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Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a first resurrection?  He was a "first fruits"  I think its possible that the first resurrection is associated with harvest times....First fruits(Jesus Christ), The main Harvest(Rapture of the Church), Then the gleanings(tribulation saints).


 

Do you believe that there will be survivors of the time of Jacobs trouble, to replenish the earth through the 1000yr reign of Jesus Christ?  Or is all the dead in Christ, and all the survivors who did not receive the mark or his number, or worship the beast going to be changed at the end of the time of Jacobs Trouble?

 

Yes, Jesus was the first resurrection, but what John is addressing is specifically the end times.  The fact that Christ was resurrected is a given, but it occurred prior to what John is discussing, so he is simply giving the order for this particular time.  Look at this verse from I Corinthians 15, we see the order of resurrection established.

 

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

Note the order given, Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him.  We also see Paul address this order again in Romans.

 

Romans 2:To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

 

Jews are the firstfruits, we see this established in scripture numerous times.  It is entirely possible that the firstfruits are specifically the 24 elders mentioned, representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles, all of which were Jews.  The important thing is, we fit into the category of those who belong to Him, which makes us last, and the verse is not vague about the fact that it is at His coming.

 

As for the harvests, I assume you are referring to Jesus' answer to the disciples question regarding the end of the age.  This is how i see it.

 

The parable of the ten virgins is the rapture.

The parable of the talents is for those alive during the millenial kingdom and it coincides with the great white throne judgement.

The sheep and the goats is the great white throne judgement.

 

There are several reasons for this.  In the parable of the ten virgins we see that they all go out to meet the bridegroom.  Unbelievers are not going to look for a bridegroom they do not believe in.  Paul addresses this in the first chapter of Romans when he discusses God's wrath, in that chapter he makes it clear that people who knew God would still reject the truth, these people are represented by those without enough oil.

 

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

Jesus also speaks about people turning away from the faith that will hate and betray true believers in Matthew 24.  The parable ends with a specific reference to keeping watch, a reference to the thief, the sign of the rapture.

 

In the parable of talents the focus is on works, what these people did with what they were given.  What they are given is a thousand years living directly under Jesus' reign, faith is removed from this equation because they can come see the Lord face to face if they so desire.  This parable also ends in finality, we see the worthless servant being thrown into darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

The sheep and goats judgement speaks for itself, at the conclusion we see the weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unbeliever and we see eternal life for the righteous.

 

The time of Jacob's trouble is an event that has already taken place between 66 and 70 AD, these two prophecies do not go together.  I just posted a response regarding this in a thread about preterism in the prophecy section, if you want to look there you will see my thoughts on this and how I arrive there.  Jacob's trouble was specifically for the nation Israel, the great tribulation is a time of trouble for the whole world, not just one nation.


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Izzel

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Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a first resurrection?  He was a "first fruits"  I think its possible that the first resurrection is associated with harvest times....First fruits(Jesus Christ), The main Harvest(Rapture of the Church), Then the gleanings(tribulation saints).


 

Do you believe that there will be survivors of the time of Jacobs trouble, to replenish the earth through the 1000yr reign of Jesus Christ?  Or is all the dead in Christ, and all the survivors who did not receive the mark or his number, or worship the beast going to be changed at the end of the time of Jacobs Trouble?

 

Yes, Jesus was the first resurrection, but what John is addressing is specifically the end times.  The fact that Christ was resurrected is a given, but it occurred prior to what John is discussing, so he is simply giving the order for this particular time.  Look at this verse from I Corinthians 15, we see the order of resurrection established.

 

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

Note the order given, Christ, the firstfruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him.  We also see Paul address this order again in Romans.

 

Romans 2:To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

 

Jews are the firstfruits, we see this established in scripture numerous times.  It is entirely possible that the firstfruits are specifically the 24 elders mentioned, representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles, all of which were Jews.  The important thing is, we fit into the category of those who belong to Him, which makes us last, and the verse is not vague about the fact that it is at His coming.

 

As for the harvests, I assume you are referring to Jesus' answer to the disciples question regarding the end of the age.  This is how i see it.

 

The parable of the ten virgins is the rapture.

The parable of the talents is for those alive during the millenial kingdom and it coincides with the great white throne judgement.

The sheep and the goats is the great white throne judgement.

 

There are several reasons for this.  In the parable of the ten virgins we see that they all go out to meet the bridegroom.  Unbelievers are not going to look for a bridegroom they do not believe in.  Paul addresses this in the first chapter of Romans when he discusses God's wrath, in that chapter he makes it clear that people who knew God would still reject the truth, these people are represented by those without enough oil.

 

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

Jesus also speaks about people turning away from the faith that will hate and betray true believers in Matthew 24.  The parable ends with a specific reference to keeping watch, a reference to the thief, the sign of the rapture.

 

In the parable of talents the focus is on works, what these people did with what they were given.  What they are given is a thousand years living directly under Jesus' reign, faith is removed from this equation because they can come see the Lord face to face if they so desire.  This parable also ends in finality, we see the worthless servant being thrown into darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

The sheep and goats judgement speaks for itself, at the conclusion we see the weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unbeliever and we see eternal life for the righteous.

 

The time of Jacob's trouble is an event that has already taken place between 66 and 70 AD, these two prophecies do not go together.  I just posted a response regarding this in a thread about preterism in the prophecy section, if you want to look there you will see my thoughts on this and how I arrive there.  Jacob's trouble was specifically for the nation Israel, the great tribulation is a time of trouble for the whole world, not just one nation.

 

Jacobs trouble is in the Future not 70Ad 

 

70 Ad was a prophecy that was fullfilled but not Jacobs trouble 

 

Isaiah 34:1-8

King James Version (KJV)

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


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#6
wingnut-

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Jacobs trouble is in the Future not 70Ad 


 


 

 

70 Ad was a prophecy that was fullfilled but not Jacobs trouble 

 

Isaiah 34:1-8

King James Version (KJV)

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

 

I respectfully disagree with you on that, for starters, look how chapter 34 begins.

 

Isaiah 34  Come near, you nations, and listen;
    pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
    the world, and all that comes out of it!
The Lord is angry with all nations;
    his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
    he will give them over to slaughter.

 

This is a prophecy about God's judgement on the world, all nations, not Jacob's trouble.  The chapter makes it clear that God is interceding on the nation Israel's behalf, how does this equate to a time of trouble for them?  It is following the time of Jacob's trouble that the remnant will return, as is bore out in chapter 9 and 10.

 

Isaiah 9:The Lord has sent a message against Jacob;
    it will fall on Israel.

 

Isaiah 9:14 So the Lord will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
    both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
    the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
    and those who are guided are led astray.
17 Therefore the Lord will take no pleasure in the young men,
    nor will he pity the fatherless and widows,
for everyone is ungodly and wicked,
    every mouth speaks folly.

 

Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
    the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
    they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
    but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
    but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of their own offspring:
21     Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh;
    together they will turn against Judah.

 

This is the time of Jacob's trouble, and Isaiah separates the two events clearly in this following passage.

 

Isaiah 10:Woe to those who make unjust laws,
    to those who issue oppressive decrees,
to deprive the poor of their rights
    and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
    and robbing the fatherless.
What will you do on the day of reckoning,
    when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
    Where will you leave your riches?
Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives
    or fall among the slain.

 

There are no captives when the day of reckoning appears at the end of the age, this is a reference to things of this world.  It is clarified in the following section regarding God's judgement on Assyria.

 

Isaiah 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

 

This has nothing to do with the end times, this prophecy was fulfilled.  The judgement against Israel is in chapter 9, what you present is 25 chapters later.  It is definitely a prophecy regarding the end times, but exactly what is it in there that states this has anything to do with Jacob's time of trouble?


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#7
Izzel

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Jacobs trouble is in the Future not 70Ad 


 


 

 

70 Ad was a prophecy that was fullfilled but not Jacobs trouble 

 

Isaiah 34:1-8

King James Version (KJV)

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

 

I respectfully disagree with you on that, for starters, look how chapter 34 begins.

 

Isaiah 34  Come near, you nations, and listen;
    pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
    the world, and all that comes out of it!
The Lord is angry with all nations;
    his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
    he will give them over to slaughter.

 

This is a prophecy about God's judgement on the world, all nations, not Jacob's trouble.  The chapter makes it clear that God is interceding on the nation Israel's behalf, how does this equate to a time of trouble for them?  It is following the time of Jacob's trouble that the remnant will return, as is bore out in chapter 9 and 10.

 

Isaiah 9:The Lord has sent a message against Jacob;
    it will fall on Israel.

 

Isaiah 9:14 So the Lord will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
    both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
    the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
    and those who are guided are led astray.
17 Therefore the Lord will take no pleasure in the young men,
    nor will he pity the fatherless and widows,
for everyone is ungodly and wicked,
    every mouth speaks folly.

 

Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
    the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
    they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
    but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
    but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of their own offspring:
21     Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh;
    together they will turn against Judah.

 

This is the time of Jacob's trouble, and Isaiah separates the two events clearly in this following passage.

 

Isaiah 10:Woe to those who make unjust laws,
    to those who issue oppressive decrees,
to deprive the poor of their rights
    and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
    and robbing the fatherless.
What will you do on the day of reckoning,
    when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
    Where will you leave your riches?
Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives
    or fall among the slain.

 

There are no captives when the day of reckoning appears at the end of the age, this is a reference to things of this world.  It is clarified in the following section regarding God's judgement on Assyria.

 

Isaiah 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

 

This has nothing to do with the end times, this prophecy was fulfilled.  The judgement against Israel is in chapter 9, what you present is 25 chapters later.  It is definitely a prophecy regarding the end times, but exactly what is it in there that states this has anything to do with Jacob's time of trouble?

 

Jacobs trouble

 

Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


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#8
wingnut-

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Jacobs trouble


 
Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

 

Again, this is an end time prophecy that makes no connection to Jacob's time of trouble.  It says this time of distress is unlike anything before, and the reason for that is because it is worldwide, not directed at one nation.


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#9
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A common argument that disputes the rapture is

" How many times is Christ coming back? It is his SECOND COMING, not his THIRD. There is no rapture because this will make it his THIRD coming"

or something around those lines. Where in the bible does it state how many times he is to come back? Give me a number.. With in the four gospel accounts we already see how Jesus Christ ascended up to heaven and came back...

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So here we have Jesus telling Mary not to touch Jesus Christ because he has not ascended yet. Why can she not touch him? I don't know. Maybe because He is about to perform the duty of they High Priest in the Heavenly Temple that is made with out hands and it will defile it(Hebrews 9). But, She cannot touch Jesus.

Mark 16:12 - After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

So Jesus Christ is either a shape shifter, or He ascended to the Father and came back and now he can be touched.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ is telling them to touch him or handle him when Mary could not because he has not yet ascended. Him having not yet ascended apparently is what was keeping him from being touched.

John 20:27 - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Again, Jesus is telling Thomas to touch him, when Mary could not earlier.

Matthew 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by his feet, and worshipped him.

Here they are actually touching him. They are holding his feet.

So here we have Jesus ascending to the Father which is in Heaven(secretly), and then coming back to the disciples.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And of course, he is taken up. again...

I believe that Jesus Christ's coming at the end of Jacobs Trouble has no restraints on Jesus Christ rapturing his Church. The rapture is a mystery, His coming at the end is not a mystery.

Jesus' coming at the rapture is a spiritual event; in the complete end of time he comes physically.


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#10
Donibm

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Good observation.

Bad doctrine.

 

If you want to say there are multiple ASCENTIONS, fine,  That could be debated.

 

 

But even in those, Jesus was NOT promising to "RETURN".  lol He was not promising a "second coming" .... or a third .... or a fourth.

 

 

The Second Coming if for His PERMANENT return.  His 1000 year reign.  How many of what you posted did this happen?  Then why call it a "coming"?

 

 

You are adding your theories into what the Word of God says ... and it does not suggest what you are suggesting.

 

 

Clever arguments are still ... cleverly wrong.

 

 

Second Coming is His PROMISED return.  His permanent return.  Has nothing to do with any ascendsions, appearances or reapperances.  Jesus made no such promised of a RETURN in any of that.


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