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#1
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Another point that you are missing, is the church has become an institution and not a unified spiritual body, it is cold, isolated and unfullfilling.

 

That's not the christian couple's fault and they shouldn't be castigated for it. Demanding that they become a member of your church before they are allowed to be united in holy matrimony is denying them their God given rights. Yes they can go elsewhere to have the marriage ceremony performed, but unless they bow to the stipulations of the church, their marriage in said church will never be recognized.

 

How exactly does that bring unity to the Body? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I won't explain myself again, man.  I have repeated myself more than I needed to.

 

 

That's fine. 


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#2
ayin jade

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I didn't say that should apply to every marriage.  I said, if a couple, that are members of a church, refuses to marry on it's terms, and gets married elsewhere, then they shouldn't expect that church to recognize their marriage.  And to add to that, what I meant, and thought you would have understood, is that the couple's marriage shouldn't be recognized by the church body until their relationship has conformed to that church's requirements. 

 

 

Then your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a church that approves of gay marriage since you dont conform to their requirements. And your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a mormon church or mosque. Although you would not attend them, the members would also not recognize your marriage. Really its a slippery slope towards chaos with that view.


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#3
JustinM

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quote man:  " Demanding that they become a member of your church before they are allowed to be united in holy matrimony is denying them their God given rights."

 

Oh, brother. . .

 

No one is telling they can't be wed, they just can't be wed in that church.

 

In the US, the church doesn't even matter, for all intents and purposes, the state is the highest authority required to acknowledge and recognize a marriage.  And, as we are seeing, the state will soon recognize every form of marriage you can imagine.


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#4
ayin jade

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Personally,I think you should be allowed to get married in church without a license,everything the State needs to know could be recorded when you present your certificate of marriage to them,but I guess then they would lose out on the $25.00 license fee for revenue-lol

   

 

In my state, there are mormon polygamists. Some of them get around the law by marrying all but one of their wives only in the church without a marriage license. So to the law, they are not married but to their community they are married. They also get welfare for their other wives since they are not legally married and technically living on a poverty level. 

 

The point is, the example so far of being married only within a church is a cult. I do not wish to follow their example. I dont see why it is difficult for a Christian to follow the law and get married in a way that appeases the law (marriage license).


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#5
JustinM

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I didn't say that should apply to every marriage.  I said, if a couple, that are members of a church, refuses to marry on it's terms, and gets married elsewhere, then they shouldn't expect that church to recognize their marriage.  And to add to that, what I meant, and thought you would have understood, is that the couple's marriage shouldn't be recognized by the church body until their relationship has conformed to that church's requirements. 

 

 

Then your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a church that approves of gay marriage since you dont conform to their requirements. And your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a mormon church or mosque. Although you would not attend them, the members would also not recognize your marriage. Really its a slippery slope towards chaos with that view.

 

It's not, the state already recognizes marriages as long as you have a marriage license.

 

My point in all of this is, you don't need the church to be married, you can marry on your own terms anywhere you want to right now.  In Las Vegas, they have every type of theme you can imagine for a wedding.  But, is it holy matrimony?

 

Holy matrimony used to mean something.  People lived and died by that commitment.  Holy Matrimony was intended to be something more than a pointless, spiritually dead utterance at the end of a cermony.

 

If matrimony was truly holy, it would never end.

 

Sure, there are anecdotes and even circumstances in scripture to show when matrimony became unholy and could be dissolved on Earth and in Heaven.

 

Matrimony hasn't been holy in a very long time, why's that?


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#6
shiloh357

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Personally,I think you should be allowed to get married in church without a license,everything the State needs to know could be recorded when you present your certificate of marriage to them,but I guess then they would lose out on the $25.00 license fee for revenue-lol

   

 

In my state, there are mormon polygamists. Some of them get around the law by marrying all but one of their wives only in the church without a marriage license. So to the law, they are not married but to their community they are married. They also get welfare for their other wives since they are not legally married and technically living on a poverty level. 

 

The point is, the example so far of being married only within a church is a cult. I do not wish to follow their example. I dont see why it is difficult for a Christian to follow the law and get married in a way that appeases the law (marriage license).

 

No, that's not true.   My grandparents were married in their church and whole church was there.  That was how marriages were done at that time in their community.  There was nothing cultic about it. 

 

Now they still did the marriage license.   I don't think that Justin suggesting anything like what the Mormons do.  I think that is pretty apparent from his comments.

 

The way I am reading his comments is that a church should be able to set the rules for how marriages are done in their congregation.  If couple wants to get married in that church, they need to plug in to that body of believers and be a part of them for a set number of months or years that the church requires in order to get to know them and watch their conduct.   This might very well be the brides home church, or the groom's home church.

 

They would be expected demonstrate their fitness to be married to that congregation.  No pastor wants to marry a couple when he knows the marriage isn't going to work and this couple is not fit for marriage either because of maturity issues, or because of religious/moral differences that are simply going to be a stumbling block to a successful marriage.    The couple demonstrates that they are mature enough for the marriage covenant, and are suitable for each other and are married to one another in the presence of the entire congregation.

 

The congregation commits itself to doing whatever it can to nurture and support the commitment they have made to each other.   There is nothing cultic about that.  If the couple demonstrate that they are not fit for marriage, have engaged in sexual immorality are not good for each other and have a poor chance at a successful marriage and choose to go elsewhere to get married, then this church is not required to add its blessing to that union under those conditions.


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#7
Qnts2

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I didn't say that should apply to every marriage.  I said, if a couple, that are members of a church, refuses to marry on it's terms, and gets married elsewhere, then they shouldn't expect that church to recognize their marriage.  And to add to that, what I meant, and thought you would have understood, is that the couple's marriage shouldn't be recognized by the church body until their relationship has conformed to that church's requirements. 

 

 

Then your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a church that approves of gay marriage since you dont conform to their requirements. And your marriage wouldnt be recognized by a mormon church or mosque. Although you would not attend them, the members would also not recognize your marriage. Really its a slippery slope towards chaos with that view.

 

It's not, the state already recognizes marriages as long as you have a marriage license.

 

My point in all of this is, you don't need the church to be married, you can marry on your own terms anywhere you want to right now.  In Las Vegas, they have every type of theme you can imagine for a wedding.  But, is it holy matrimony?

 

Holy matrimony used to mean something.  People lived and died by that commitment.  Holy Matrimony was intended to be something more than a pointless, spiritually dead utterance at the end of a cermony.

 

If matrimony was truly holy, it would never end.

 

Sure, there are anecdotes and even circumstances in scripture to show when matrimony became unholy and could be dissolved on Earth and in Heaven.

 

Matrimony hasn't been holy in a very long time, why's that?

 

 

Ok, you bring up something which I think could be a very interesting discussion.

 

Marriage is holy, in my view, because it is established by God for a purpose. Others may have better and/or different ideas on this.

 

Is a marriage forbidden by God, holy? I would say no, as God defined what marriage should be. A son can not marry his mother, that is forbidden. etc etc etc So, if that happened, it would not be holy matrimony.

 

Does the marriage ceremony or the location of the ceremony or who performs the ceremony make a marriage holy? I would say no, as scripture does not put any requirements on the ceremony (except those general prohibitions such as not invoking another god), or where or who officiates. Now, if a marriage is done between a man and women, who can be married, but in the name of another god, is the marriage then not holy? I am looking to see what makes a marriage holy.  

 

Scripture says a believer and an unbeliever should not marry, but then says, if a unbelieving person who was married to an unbeliever and then becomes a believer, the unbelieving spouse has the choice to stay or leave. When one becomes a believer and the other does not, what is the state of that marriage? Was it holy when both were unbelievers, and potentially became unholy when they were no longer of like spirit?

 

What qualifies a marriage as holy? And can that marriage change status from unholy to holy, or holy to unholy? Of course this is based on the idea that a holy marriage should last forever.   


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#8
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Blessings Jade...

    I am really not quite sure if I am the"Christian" you are suggesting that has a difficult time following the law,since you have quoted one sentence from my post,if I am that"Christian" that you are referring to then I would say,"Why did you choose  to quote that particular sentence & leave the one out where I say "but the Bible tells us we are to OBSERVE & OBEY the law"....

    I usually ignore these type of insinuations but sometimes it does get to be a bit much......I do my best to live according to Gods Word & have no difficulty in following the laws of the land because that is what God says I ought to do & I am sure the same goes for many other Christians that also feel the same way I do because all the information that is on the marriage license is also on the certificate of marriage....just because a person does not think a law is necessary does not mean they do not follow it.

     Cult?????I won't even entertain that statement...

                                                                                     Praise & Glory to God=-Kwik


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#9
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What qualifies a marriage as holy? 

 

That the two people getting married acknowledge that marriage is a three way covenant and not a two way contract, and that they do everything in their marriage to honor God.

 

Then it doesn't matter where you get married or by who, as long as it is a legal marriage in  terms of the red tape,


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#10
JustinM

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Hi Qnts2, I think we are starting to understand each other better now.

 

I believe something cannot be holy if it is done in a sinful manner. 

 

With that premise, many churches have been direlect by marrying couples that are living sinfully and calling it holy matrimony, and I believe that is why Christian marriages are failing.  Whether that sinfulness stems from their behavior with each other, or from their relationship or lack of a relationship with God, doesn't matter, it cannot be holy matrimony so long as they are living sinfully.

 

I believe a church is completely sanctified in making that a condition before granting holy matrimony to any relationship.


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#11
JustinM

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quote ayin jade:  "The point is, the example so far of being married only within a church is a cult. I do not wish to follow their example. I dont see why it is difficult for a Christian to follow the law and get married in a way that appeases the law (marriage license)."

 

Hi  jade, thanks for your comments.

 

I am definitely not advocating what mormons do, nor am I wanting to follow their behavior.  I also would not want marriage to be turned into some cultist ritual.

 

Finally, I am not saying we should do away with marriage licenses, however;  a marriage license from the state is not the same as holy matrimony. 

 

The state doesn't care who you marry, so long as it's lawful.

 

In the Church, we should strive for something better and more meaningful than this.

 


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#12
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Good morning everyone.  One of my questions for today is, why do churches require a marriage certificate before marrying two people?  Why won't churches marry people without an "offical" marriage certificate? 

I think there needs to be some kind of certificate given when a couple gets married, but not a government license.  I would like to see the churches issue their own license when they marry someone, in the same way that many churches will give a certificate of ordination to a person, even though it is not officially recognized by the government. 

 

As far as your question goes, my opinion is that churches don't perform marriage ceremonies without a license because society has become conditioned to believe that a marriage without a government sanction isn't a real marriage.  I don't agree with that, and in some ways, I think it has led to a higher divorce rate.  If we accept the notion that you need the government to sanction marriage, then we also accept all other government rules surrounding marriage as legitimate.  That includes divorce.  It has just become part of our way of thinking that when a judge dissolves a marriage, God sees it as dissolved too.  I would love to see the church move away from requiring government approval for marriage. 


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#13
Butero

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Personally,I think you should be allowed to get married in church without a license,everything the State needs to know could be recorded when you present your certificate of marriage to them,but I guess then they would lose out on the $25.00 license fee for revenue-lol

   

 

In my state, there are mormon polygamists. Some of them get around the law by marrying all but one of their wives only in the church without a marriage license. So to the law, they are not married but to their community they are married. They also get welfare for their other wives since they are not legally married and technically living on a poverty level. 

 

The point is, the example so far of being married only within a church is a cult. I do not wish to follow their example. I dont see why it is difficult for a Christian to follow the law and get married in a way that appeases the law (marriage license).

 

We have a government right now that is giving licenses to homosexual couples.  I am not saying this about you, because I know you are not defending the practice, but I am amazed at how many people attack polygamy and defend homosexual marriage.  I can make Biblical arguments for polygamy, but none for homosexual marriage.  Once the state started to issue licenses for homosexual couples, I decided that state sanctioning is meaningless.  Why should the church care to have a license from the state in order to recognize a marriage, and if they are going to use the government license as the standard, then they would have to accept any license the government issues as valid, including a license to homosexuals. 

 

As for Mormons, and any other polygamists for that matter, all a church would have to do is issue their own marriage license to anyone they want.  If they believe in polygamy, all they would have to do is issue a marriage license to a man and as many wives as he chooses to have.  It is not a legal document in the eyes of the state, so it is perfectly legal.  There are polygamists outside the Mormon church, and some claim to be Christians.  All you have to do is a search to show that is true.  What I find funny about those people is they will marry one person, get a legal divorce, and then marry more wives, but never really leave any of them.  They claim that it is not a Biblical bill of divorcement, so they remain married to all their wives.  It is one of the craziest things I have ever seen.  If they want to be polygamists, why get a government license at all?  You don't need one. 

 

We are supposed to have freedom of religion in this country.  If a church wants to marry anyone, and their religion allows it, the government has no business interfering.  At the same time, God won't necessarily approve of that marriage.  We are really looking at a few different things.  1.  A marriage sanctioned by the government.  2.  A marriage sanctioned by the church.   3.  A marriage sanctioned by God.  They don't all necessarily go hand in hand. 


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#14
shiloh357

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Good morning everyone.  One of my questions for today is, why do churches require a marriage certificate before marrying two people?  Why won't churches marry people without an "offical" marriage certificate? 

I think there needs to be some kind of certificate given when a couple gets married, but not a government license.  I would like to see the churches issue their own license when they marry someone, in the same way that many churches will give a certificate of ordination to a person, even though it is not officially recognized by the government. 

 

As far as your question goes, my opinion is that churches don't perform marriage ceremonies without a license because society has become conditioned to believe that a marriage without a government sanction isn't a real marriage.  I don't agree with that, and in some ways, I think it has led to a higher divorce rate.  If we accept the notion that you need the government to sanction marriage, then we also accept all other government rules surrounding marriage as legitimate.  That includes divorce.  It has just become part of our way of thinking that when a judge dissolves a marriage, God sees it as dissolved too.  I would love to see the church move away from requiring government approval for marriage. 

 

Same here.


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#15
Edwin

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Thank you JustinM for your comments which are much appreciated.

 

You say,

 

"I believe the Church should try to preserve the sanctity of marriage."

 

Amen, yes I agree.

 

Bless you.

 

Edwin.
 


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#16
Edwin

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Read the first eight verses of John 2.

 

Jesus not only attends a wedding, but also blesses it.

 

Edwin.


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#17
ayin jade

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Blessings Jade...

    I am really not quite sure if I am the"Christian" you are suggesting that has a difficult time following the law,since you have quoted one sentence from my post,if I am that"Christian" that you are referring to then I would say,"Why did you choose  to quote that particular sentence & leave the one out where I say "but the Bible tells us we are to OBSERVE & OBEY the law"....

    I usually ignore these type of insinuations but sometimes it does get to be a bit much......I do my best to live according to Gods Word & have no difficulty in following the laws of the land because that is what God says I ought to do & I am sure the same goes for many other Christians that also feel the same way I do because all the information that is on the marriage license is also on the certificate of marriage....just because a person does not think a law is necessary does not mean they do not follow it.

     Cult?????I won't even entertain that statement...

                                                                                     Praise & Glory to God=-Kwik

 

 

Kwik, I was not remotely making any insinuation or accusation. I merely took a part of your post and built a reply on it. When I mentioned a Christian, I meant a generic Christian out there who wanted to get married and shouldnt have any issue with getting a marriage license and getting married as pertaining to our laws as opposed to marrying only in the church without a legal marriage. I never ever meant to single you or anyone else out. It was never my intention to accuse or insinuate anything. Im sorry I was not more clear. No offense was meant at all. 

 

The only real life example I have of someone marrying within a church but without a marriage license is within the mormon church, which is a cult. That was also what I meant. The cult remark was not aimed at anyone here either. 


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#18
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I think there needs to be some kind of certificate given when a couple gets married, but not a government license.  I would like to see the churches issue their own license when they marry someone, in the same way that many churches will give a certificate of ordination to a person, even though it is not officially recognized by the government. 

 

As far as your question goes, my opinion is that churches don't perform marriage ceremonies without a license because society has become conditioned to believe that a marriage without a government sanction isn't a real marriage.  I don't agree with that, and in some ways, I think it has led to a higher divorce rate.  If we accept the notion that you need the government to sanction marriage, then we also accept all other government rules surrounding marriage as legitimate.  That includes divorce.  It has just become part of our way of thinking that when a judge dissolves a marriage, God sees it as dissolved too.  I would love to see the church move away from requiring government approval for marriage. 

 

 

Hello Butero,

 

Do you think the Church should be involved in secular weddings ?


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#19

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I believe a fundamental change must happen within the Church if we want the US to return to Christ.  The Christian family is the strongest and also the most vulnerable institution that God created.  When we isolate our family from Church, we become like a sheep that strayed too far away from the flock and is now in peril.  The family in the US is now in peril.  There are more single parent households, divorces are routine, and our children are indoctrinated into secularism, we are losing them to the world.

 

What do you expect when you won't even recognize a legal marriage simply because they didn't get married in your church?

 

~

 

The

 

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Timothy 2:23-24

 

~

 

What do you expect when you won't even recognize a legal marriage simply because they didn't get married in your church?

 

I didn't say that, and what is happening to the family wasn't caused by what I am proposing.  I am saying that a church shouldn't be required to sanctify a marriage just because 2 people want to get married in it, and that it shouldn't have to open up its doors and marry people that aren't members of the church.

 

~

 

Love

 

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35

 

~

 

What do you expect when you won't even recognize a legal marriage simply because they didn't get married in your church?

 

I didn't say that, and what is happening to the family wasn't caused by what I am proposing.  I am saying that a church shouldn't be required to sanctify a marriage just because 2 people want to get married in it, and that it shouldn't have to open up its doors and marry people that aren't members of the church.

 

Yes.......you did.

 

~

 

Of The Brethren

 

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

 

For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

 

But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For every man shall bear his own burden. Galatians 6:1-5

 

~

 

I didn't say that should apply to every marriage.  I said, if a couple, that are members of a church, refuses to marry on it's terms, and gets married elsewhere, then they shouldn't expect that church to recognize their marriage.  And to add to that, what I meant, and thought you would have understood, is that the couple's marriage shouldn't be recognized by the church body until their relationship has conformed to that church's requirements. 

 

How is that different from your original statement?   :noidea:

 

And if your church doesn't recognize their marriage, they're essentially stating that the couple is living in sin. 

 

~

 

Shines Through

 

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Titus 3:2-4

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe


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#20
Qnts2

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Hi Qnts2, I think we are starting to understand each other better now.

 

I believe something cannot be holy if it is done in a sinful manner. 

 

With that premise, many churches have been direlect by marrying couples that are living sinfully and calling it holy matrimony, and I believe that is why Christian marriages are failing.  Whether that sinfulness stems from their behavior with each other, or from their relationship or lack of a relationship with God, doesn't matter, it cannot be holy matrimony so long as they are living sinfully.

 

I believe a church is completely sanctified in making that a condition before granting holy matrimony to any relationship.

 

Ok. I would agree that according to scripture, there are some marriages which are forbidden. I know of churches which will not perform the ceremony if one of the people getting married is a believer and one an unbeliever.

 

I would have an issue with refusing to marry two believers who succombed to their attraction and sinned. To refuse to marry such a couple is essentially causing the couple to potentially succomb to more temptation as refusing to marry them when they want to marry, only continues the situation of sin. I also have an issue with requiring membership of both. It is not a sin to not be a member of a particular church or to desire to be married in a particular church because of parents being members, or location.

 

I also do not believe a church can sanctify a marriage. Only God does that.  Also, the church does not make a marriage a holy marriage.

 

My objection to your proposal is that it adds extra, unnessecary rules which do not come from scripture. These extra rules an requirements could very well lay burdens on the couple and family. If my own daughter wanted to come home to marry a very nice boy, and both are believers, that would be proper. Weddings are often held in the area where the future bride grew up near the brides family. But, according to your proposal to keep marriage more holy, my daughter and future son-in-law could not be married in my own church. That is adding unnessecary burdens by the church rules on marriage. Yes, we could go somewhere else, which means I change churches. It also means my daughter could not marry in a church she grew up in which adds to the hurt. A wedding day should be a joyous  occcasion and not one which includes a rejection due to unnessecary rules.

 

Your intent is good, but I think your proposed solution is not a biblical one, and will cause more problems without solving your original concern.          


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