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Genesis 4:5

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29 replies to this topic

#1
gdemoss

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Did Cain know?  Yes.  How did he know?  His brother was a prophet.


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#2
hmbld

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" God received non blood offerings made of vegitable sources in the Bible, so the point wasn't that it wasn't a blood offering. The problem that the Bible makes known is that Can didn't bring the best of his fields and thus it was not an offering acceptable to the Lord."

 

Ok, I was understanding it was the substance of what was offered, i see now.

 

 

 

"Did Cain know?  Yes.  How did he know?  His brother was a prophet."

 

This i don't understand?  Cains's actions after this certainly tell of what is in his heart, but my original question was because i thought Cain had made a mistake in what he offered.


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#3
hmbld

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"Do you think that was cain first offering ?"

 

From what i read in Gen chapt 4, yes i read it as being the first time he made an offering, after rereading it i see it does not specify, so now information on whether this was the first time or not is not provided.  Not sure if it matters if it was the first time Cain made an offering to to Lord?


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#4
WillfromTexas

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"Do you think that was cain first offering ?"

 

From what i read in Gen chapt 4, yes i read it as being the first time he made an offering, after rereading it i see it does not specify, so now information on whether this was the first time or not is not provided.  Not sure if it matters if it was the first time Cain made an offering to to Lord?

 

I doubt it was the first time and they'd made offerings.  Surely Adam and Eve had raised them to make offerings to the Lord.  To me it adds to the meaning if it isn't the first offering because it shows that over time he lost respect for God.  Demonstrating to us that we shouldn't neglect our sacrifices to the Lord and always give our best.  That is part of the overall point of course but just a reinforcement to the meaning.


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#5
Spock

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"Do you think that was cain first offering ?"
 
From what i read in Gen chapt 4, yes i read it as being the first time he made an offering, after rereading it i see it does not specify, so now information on whether this was the first time or not is not provided.  Not sure if it matters if it was the first time Cain made an offering to to Lord?

 
I doubt it was the first time and they'd made offerings.  Surely Adam and Eve had raised them to make offerings to the Lord.  To me it adds to the meaning if it isn't the first offering because it shows that over time he lost respect for God.  Demonstrating to us that we shouldn't neglect our sacrifices to the Lord and always give our best.  That is part of the overall point of course but just a reinforcement to the meaning.

Interesting gleaning. It made me think about how often people come to The Lord with enthusiasm and then over time they lose it and it becomes merely traditional. That could easily creep up on any of us, including me. Yikes! Again, Thanks for this input.
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#6
Shar

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Abel brought the firstborn of his flock.   However, Cain brought some fruits of the soil.  Remember, sin had now entered the world and fellowship with G-d could not go without the covering of those sins.  He. 9:22 reminds us that "without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness of sins.  G-d set up this offering system for various reasons and times.  We get a better understanding of these offering through Moses' writings. 

 

Because there were fat portions involved in Abel's offering it was probably the required time for the Sin Offering that was for payment of unintentional sins of uncleaness, neglect or thoughtlessness.  G-d's response to Cain indicates that "if you do what is right, will you not be accepted"?  In other words, Cain probably brought a Grain Offering that was voluntary and was used as an expression of gratitude instead.  It was not the time for that offering.  He decided to do it his way instead of G-d's way.  The true essence of sin.  In Hebrews 11, "By faith, Abel offered a better sacrifice".  Faith comes by believing.  He believed G-d and obeyed Him.  The expression of true faith.

 

Remember, they were vegetarians and did not eat meat. Ge.1: 29-30.  They did not eat meat until after Noah exited the ark. Ge.9:3.  These flocks would be primarily used for the needed sacrifices.  Secondarily, they would be used for clothing or milk.  G-d's instructions obviously were handed down orally, because we see that the first thing Noah does when he exits the ark is to build an alter and made an offering to the L-rd.  I am sure that after being in the ark for over a year, that there were some sins that needed to be covered.


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#7
Spock

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Abel brought the firstborn of his flock.   However, Cain brought some fruits of the soil.  Remember, sin had now entered the world and fellowship with G-d could not go without the covering of those sins.  He. 9:22 reminds us that "without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness of sins.  G-d set up this offering system for various reasons and times.  We get a better understanding of these offering through Moses' writings. 
 
Because there were fat portions involved in Abel's offering it was probably the required time for the Sin Offering that was for payment of unintentional sins of uncleaness, neglect or thoughtlessness.  G-d's response to Cain indicates that "if you do what is right, will you not be accepted"?  In other words, Cain probably brought a Grain Offering that was voluntary and was used as an expression of gratitude instead.  It was not the time for that offering.  He decided to do it his way instead of G-d's way.  The true essence of sin.  In Hebrews 11, "By faith, Abel offered a better sacrifice".  Faith comes by believing.  He believed G-d and obeyed Him.  The expression of true faith.
 
Remember, they were vegetarians and did not eat meat. Ge.1: 29-30.  They did not eat meat until after Noah exited the ark. Ge.9:3.  These flocks would be primarily used for the needed sacrifices.  Secondarily, they would be used for clothing or milk.  G-d's instructions obviously were handed down orally, because we see that the first thing Noah does when he exits the ark is to build an alter and made an offering to the L-rd.  I am sure that after being in the ark for over a year, that there were some sins that needed to be covered.


Sounds good to me, Shar. Thanks for this.
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#8
JohnD

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Genesis 4:5       But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

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Was Cain supposed to know his offering would not be accepted, and if so, how?

 

By the means in the Hebrew which he killed his brother (ceremonial slitting of throat) Cain and Abel had more sacrificial information than the biblical record divulges.

 

If Cain had taken the best of his crops and used them to pay for acceptable sacrifices from his brother's flock, then pride and ego would have been appeased.

 

Rather he felt (as so many of us do when we admit it) God is not entitled to our best or that extra effort to purchase the acceptable sacrifice probably using the argument "my line of work is just as noble as his, and my best crops are as good as his flocks..."

 

How often we do the same...

 

So, in rage he essentially sacrificed Abel the way the animal would have been.

 

It was a vindictive snipe at God as well as a jealous anger towards his brother...

 

The Lord gave him a BIG forgiveness package... but it cost him dearly as he loved to grow things...

 

Interesting his lot in life was to build a city after that.

 

When folks have lived in rural areas they tend to be honest God-fearing... and when trouble grows for humanity it tends to start in cities.

 

Lesson learned from Cain... when God says do it a certain way... do it that certain way... there is a much bigger purpose than our puny lives though the Lord highly values us (which is all we really have going for us). Do it because he said to. We do not need to know why.

 

And usually when we do we are blessed and sometimes we see why...

 

It's really a matter of trust.

 

Adam and Eve trusted God until they didn't...


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#9
hmbld

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Hmmm. It seems there are conflicting views on whether it's the substance being offered. The verses are so short and to the point. I don't know how you can infer it was or was not the first time they made an offering based on the verses?
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#10
Hippie333

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Genesis 4:5 ( Gill's Commentary)
 

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect,.... Not because of the matter of it, as some have thought; but because it was not offered in faith and sincerity, but in a formal and hypocritical manner, without any regard to the Messiah and his sacrifice, and without any view to the glory of God: no notice was taken, no approbation was given of it by the above token, or any other; so that it was manifest to Cain himself, that God did not approve of it, or was well pleased with it, as with his brother's:

and Cain was very wroth; with God, to whom he offered it, because he did not accept of it, and with his brother, because he and his sacrifice were preferred to him and his:

and his countenance fell; the briskness and cheerfulness of his countenance went off, and he looked dejected; and instead of lifting up his face towards heaven; he looked with a down look to the earth; he looked churlish, morose, and sullen, ill natured, full of malice and revenge, and as if he was studying which way to vent it; he knit his brows and gnashed his teeth, put on a surly countenance; and there might be seen in his face all the signs, not only of grief and disappointment, but of rage and fury; though  some interpret it of shame and confusion


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#11
hmbld

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And yet, i read other places that it is the second foreshadowing example of blood sacrifice, the first example being when God clothed Adam and Eve after they sinned.  

 It does not say why God did not respect Cain's offering, so is it reading too far into it to say it is an example of foreshadowing?  


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#12
Hippie333

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It's actually "BOTH" reasons - it's an all encompassing answer - was it the offering itself - yes - was it the faith/heart it was offered with - yes -

 

http://www.oneplace....ent-385729.html

 

great 30 min sermon on the subject -


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#13
gdemoss

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"Did Cain know?  Yes.  How did he know?  His brother was a prophet."

 

This i don't understand?  

 

How do we know what God wants from us today?  The Prophet, who is the Son of God, came and told us and is in us showing us by faith as we continue on through life.  The bible tells us that Abel was a prophet.  He brought the word of God to Cain and Cain refused it is the simplest form that I believe happened otherwise there was no reason to kill Abel out of rage as he did.  Cain killed Abel because his own works were evil.  Abel was merely the bearer of bad news telling him why God did not have respect unto his offering.  I won't try to infer the reasoning that was given unto Cain as to why his offering wasn't accepted but being a prophet of God Abel would know.  Our offerings today are much different than the offerings acceptable in the past.  We don't offer the blood of bulls and goats any longer and they are not acceptable to God from our hands today as we are called to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God as a reasonable service.  Hear the prophets of God.  Do not despise prophecy and prove all things holding fast to that which is true.


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#14
2404

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 Both Cain and Abel were religious and were trying to worship. Abel approached God in His provided way, so by revelation he knew that a substitutionary life was required for his sins. In contrast Cain was doing the best he could by the works of his hands, which can not in itself please God.

The sad part is that Cain could not humble himself and turn to God's way.

 

I'm thankful for examples that we have as in King David's sin and repentance.


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#15
Openly Curious

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Genesis 4:1-5 - AND ADAM knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gottten a man from the LORD.  And she again bare his brother Abel.  And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.  And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.  And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:  But unto Canin and to his offering he had not respect.  And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

 

Both Cain and Abel brought an offering to the Lord from the things they had.  It happens that Cain was a tiller of the ground so he brought and gave the Lord in his offering some of the fruits of his crops.  Abel happened to be a keeper of sheep so he brought and gave to the Lord in his offering a lamb that was a firstborn from his sheep.  Along with it Abel also brought the fat of the lamb and offered it up to God as well.  Both brought an offering from the things that they had yet Cain's was rejected and Abel's offering God accepted it. 

 

So why was this?  We have a little bit more insight into this and into the lives of Cain and Abel in the book of.....

 

I John 3:11-1-2 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother.  And wherefore slew he him?  Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.  He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

Within in this passage of scripture we see the story of Cain and Abel being referred to in the apostle John's writings when he was speaking about love.  John speaks about a love that should not be like that of Cain who killed his brother Abel.  Then John asks the saints a question and that question being "Why did Cain murder his brother?"  Then after asking the saints this he gives them the answer to his question.  The answer was that Cain murdered his own brother because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.  It appears that Abel was a righteous man or he lived a righteous life in the sight of God.  Cain on the other hand was an unrighteous man he did not live right in the eyes of the Lord.

 

Cain did not have love in his heart for his brother Abel.  So the sin of hate was in his heart for one and two the sin of jealousy was in his heart toward his brother because of his brother's righteous lifestyle.  Apostle John puts emphasis on the fact that if we do not have love for the brethren then we will harbor bad feelings or ill will towards them.  Just as a murderer has evil intent in their hearts that drives them to kill someone.  Now let's go back and go further down to see some more things in the scriptures in....

 

Genesis 4:6-7 - And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth?  and why is thy countenance fallen?  If thou doest well, shalt not thou be accepted?  and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.  And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

Cain countenance had changed when he saw the Lord did not accept the gift of his offering of the fruits of the ground.  And he was wroth or angry because God accepted the gift of his brother's offering he brought a lamb that was the firstborn.  But scriptures shows us that it was right after they gave their offerings to the Lord that God spoke directly to Cain and started asking him some questions concerning the offering he brought to him.  First God asks Cain "why was he angry as the look on his face had changed.  Then God tells Cain if you'll do what is right then your offering will be accepted by me.  But if you don't do what is right then sin is at your hearts door.  Then speaking of Satan he tells Cain that the devil through his sin would gain the victory over him.  As sin would have dominion over him.  As Cain had hatred and jealously brewing in his heart towards his brother.  But Cain didn't do what was right and continued on in his own ways.  And you can see what the result was.....

 

Genesis 4:8-12 - And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass when they wee in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.  And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother?  And he said,  I know not:  Am I my brother's keeper?  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.  And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;  When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.....

 

Satan got the mastery over Cain's life as he murdered his own brother.  Cain chose not to do what was right and chose to do evil.  God told Cain if he did well he too would be accepted but he chose not to do what was right instead.  So it looks like Cain knew what God would and wouldn't accept from him.  But he chose to carry out the sin that was in his heart instead of repenting of it.  The result was that Cain was cursed all the days of his life and his crops would not yield in abundance and he'd have to live on the run as a fugitive and vagabond in the earth traveling around from place to place. God put a mark on him so that others who ran across his path would not kill him.  The path of righteousness and repentance will always bring the acceptance and favor of God.  But the path of unrighteousness brings cursing and rejection from God.  Anywho this is what I've gleaned from the scripture concerning this story. blessings  


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#16
hmbld

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Both Cain and Abel brought an offering to the Lord from the things they had.  It happens that Cain was a tiller of the ground so he brought and gave the Lord in his offering some of the fruits of his crops.  Abel happened to be a keeper of sheep so he brought and gave to the Lord in his offering a lamb that was a firstborn from his sheep.  Along with it Abel also brought the fat of the lamb and offered it up to God as well.  Both brought an offering from the things that they had yet Cain's was rejected and Abel's offering God accepted it. 

 

 

So your saying that if Cain had been a keeper of sheep, and offered a lamb, it still would have been rejected and it is because of his heart?

 

I am thinking that Abel's offering of a lamb really ties into the foreshadowing of Christ, and it really does not matter who offered what as Cain showed no repentance.  I guess i really started thinking when reading this passage, that on the very day Cain and Able made their offerings, was Cain ignorant beforehand that his would be rejected?  Again, he did not repent, so . . .

 

And while reading about this passage, i came across this,

 

"We must come to grips with one thing: God, as Creator, is sovereign over His creation. While there are proximate reasons for God’s decrees, what ultimately makes “right” right and “wrong” wrong? God’s sovereign choice. This does not mean God is capricious or arbitrary; God is alwaysreasonable because He is the creator of reason."


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#17
alien224

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Hey hum!!!

Yes cain didn't give the first and best to God. He gave God what was leftover like so many of us do today.


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#18
Remnantrob

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Genesis 3:21 says God made coats of skin for Adam and Eve. If it said wool it would be one thing, but it says skins which alludes to a sacrifice being performed.  It makes me think that God did let them know about forgiveness through blood sacrifice(Heb. 9:22).  So they had to let their kids know to if it was important.  I mean God told Cain in Gen 4:7:

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.  I don't believe in original sin so Cain had to bring a sin offering and he chose not to.  Is God particular about what he asks for?  Ask Adam and Eve because they only ate a piece of fruit.


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#19
other one

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If God can make a deer, he can surely make a deer skin......    the Bible doesn't say that anything died to make their clothes......   should we assume that it did?


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#20
Remnantrob

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If God can make a deer, he can surely make a deer skin......    the Bible doesn't say that anything died to make their clothes......   should we assume that it did?

Yes...yes we should


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