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Atheist/Believer Discussion - Romans 1:20

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#1
DRS81

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How does an atheist and.or a believer see this scripture as?

Perspective and healthy opinions from both sides are welcome.

Please be kind in your posts, and try to listen to the other person. Blessings.

 

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
 

I'd like to focus on..

 

1. his invisible attributes

2. his eternal power and divine nature

3. clearly perceived

4. things that have been made

5. they are without excuse

 

6. Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

7. spiritual blindness?

8. denial?

 

- DRS81 :26: :th_handshake:



#2
WillfromTexas

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I think it is very true what Paul is saying.  When we look at the wonder of the Earth and Universe it's impossible to explain the precision.  A few degrees closer to the Sun we burn, a few degrees further we freeze.  Even without the Moon we'd be in big trouble...  The harmony of nature as well.  If you begin to grow something it is amazing how the life cycle appears from nowhere.  First come the bugs, that bring the birds, lizards, etc... until there is a complere eco system out of nowhere.

 

People are without excuse and any other explanation, except God keeping things in a delicate balance, is a feeble arguement.

 

The Word of God is poweful but it is falling on deaf ears when it comes to unbelievers.  The Holy Spirit definitely helps you understand scripture.  Before I got saved the Bible was like Chinese algebra to me.  Sure I heard the stories but lacked the spiritual understanding.  After I got saved the scriptures made sense and I developed an incredible appetite for them.  I still can't get enough of the Bible and will spend the rest of my life searching for a deeper understanding.

 

Atheists also don't put any value in the Bible and scriptures don't mean much to them.  They are blinded and deaf- but it doesn't mean the Word may fall on fertile ground.  The Lord works in mysterious ways and I've seen hardened atheists see the light and become devoted Christians.



#3
desi2007

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paul's whole theology had to be changed, he persecuted christians, he hated Jesus. But you know what? God called him. Struck him down on damascus road, with blindness, and sent him to the desert to re-evaluate his thoughts.  His whole theology had to be changed. God called him to be a preacher of the gospels.  Obedience always brings blessings. 3 forms of blessings to a believer. Peace, Joy and Contentment.

 

If you look at Mark 9:41, It talks about in God's eyes in a act of obedience. with anyone who gives a cup of water in His name.

 

In life we will go through hardships. And the atheists who only believe in a science or other gods, which ever, they only hinder their own blessings, they only live in the NOW and only cheat themselves out of all the blessings from their creator. And the thing is after we leave this world, God has more blessings for us in Heaven.

 



#4
danieldb

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I was an athiest for many years, heavily influenced by the new atheists and evolutionary psychology. I suppose I knew the world was amazing and beautiful, but my senses were dulled by drugs, alcohol, cynicism, hatred, and bitterness. It all looked gray to me, much of the time, but I was still aware of beauty and grandeur. I did not attribute the majesty of creation to a creator because of the existence of evil. I reasoned that the existence of evil meant a God couldn't exist. I was also scornful and proud as a defense against God's rebukes and chastening. (I am still proud at times and a little pretentious, old habits, unfortunately.) Didn't understand what he was trying to bring about: my salvation.

 

I now understand my place in the grand scheme of things, which is certainly not standing above God, judging Him based on what seems fair to me. Suffering can bring about incredible good -- so much suffering in my life has had the effect of making me CARE ABOUT PEOPLE! :) Jesus lived as a man partly so that he could identify with our suffering and weaknesses: that is why he is the perfect priest and intercessor for us. He knows us. He IS us, except without sin. The problem of evil is partly resolvable with this question: How does your suffering make you feel empathy for others who suffer? Do you love people who are suffering more because you have suffered? Taken to an extreme, this question could even be about torture . . . hmm, is that worst fate imaginable something our Creator knows about, by any chance? God's wisdom is infinite.

 

I don't see God much in creation, as a Christian for the past 3 years, but I see His attributes sometimes. The reason is I tend to focus on the negative, on the darkness, instead of the light. But the darkness is as light to God!

 

Psa 97:2  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
 

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

My senses are still somewhat dulled, but I notice that if I focus on the Lord, he awakens me to reality. One fact I try to remember, wherever I am, even in a modern city that woud relegate God's wonderous works to antiquity or myth, is that HIS HAND HAS MADE ALL THESE THINGS. He is not absent anywhere in the world, and yet 21st century people try to make him inaccessible! Prayer is faster than email, our thoughts faster than the fastest computer -- and God created all this centuries prior to our new technological age. Trees that use photosynthesis are more technologically advanced than an iPad, but look at how impressed we people are by our gadgets and technologies (myself included, undoubtedly)! People are impressive, and do amazing things, but God is far beyond us, His ways far beyond ours.

 

I see God's majesty mostly in His works in my own life. But the more I see purpose and pattern in my life, the more I see His works in all of creation, from the irreducible complexity of plants, animals, and ecosystems, to the mysteries of physics -- a God of meaning, purpose, and love is weaving a story throughout.



#5
Spock

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Great responses on this thread so far. I enjoyed reading them all.

Back to the OP, he asked this -

Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

Me: I don't think atheists give a rip about the implications of Romans 1:20, so my answer is no. Most are pursuing their own things and really do not want a God telling them how to live their life.

#6
gray wolf

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I do think the passage may describe unbelievers.  Surely even the diehard are not immune to the wonder about us and may pause to wonder.  The passage is not Christological I think.  It points out the existence of a Creator, but doesn't tell us much about Him.



#7
D-9

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How does an atheist and.or a believer see this scripture as?

Perspective and healthy opinions from both sides are welcome.

Please be kind in your posts, and try to listen to the other person. Blessings.

 

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
 

I'd like to focus on..

 

1. his invisible attributes

2. his eternal power and divine nature

3. clearly perceived

4. things that have been made

5. they are without excuse

 

6. Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

7. spiritual blindness?

8. denial?

 

- DRS81 :26: :th_handshake:

 

It's Paul preaching to the choir I believe, perhaps we are looking at the precursor of the teleological argument in the Christian tradition, i.e. the argument from design. I see the passage as all bark but no bite. 

 

1-5: I believe Paul is saying that the world is so magnificent that the only way it could happen is through God. To him it is so clear he doesn't see how anyone could disagree with him, and if they do they are therefore "fools" (verse 22) without excuse. 

 

His invisible attributes are his power and nature, which is imbued in creation, and because such power is clearly perceived in creation we are without excuse to acknowledge God, and perhaps even acknowledge the Christian God, because creation speaks of a designer. 

 

6-8: But, of course, as a nonbeliever, I do not clearly perceive any divinity in the universe, at least not in the sense of theism or deism being clearly evident in nature. All Paul really does is make the assertion that creation speaks of design, but doesn't explain why, his justification appears to be that his position is just self evident. It might be self evident to him or you and every other Christian, but not to me and many others. So the battle cry of us nonbelievers would be, "show me". 

 

Paul doesn't give a specific argument, which is probably a very good thing for Christianity overall (people's understanding of basic things like germs and the existence of gravity or how epilepsy is a bad thing was all foreign 2,000 years ago, so any specific argument would probably be equivalent to Bill O'Reilly's argument for God, "you can't explain the tides"). So it is up to contemporary apologists to give us specific arguments of design, like WillfromTexas mentioning Earth's distance from the Sun. 


Edited by D-9, 10 January 2014 - 11:08 PM.


#8
DRS81

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I see the passage as all bark but no bite.

1-5: I believe Paul is saying that the world is so magnificent that the only way it could happen is through God. To him it is so clear he doesn't see how anyone could disagree with him, and if they do they are therefore "fools" (verse 22) without excuse.

 

Are you speaking of the same Paul a.k.a. Saul that was knocked off a horse, given a vision of Jesus, Paul then becoming blinded by God and God later giving his sight back? The same Paul that persecuted Christians, then later after getting his sight back preached the gospel far and wide? Is there a chance that God called him to be a prophet and that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Romans 1:20 through the spirit of Paul. Your thoughts. Blessings D-9.



#9
D-9

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Are you speaking of the same Paul a.k.a. Saul that was knocked off a horse, given a vision of Jesus, Paul then becoming blinded by God and God later giving his sight back? The same Paul that persecuted Christians, then later after getting his sight back preached the gospel far and wide? Is there a chance that God called him to be a prophet and that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Romans 1:20 through the spirit of Paul. Your thoughts. Blessings D-9.

 

Yes the same Paul, I believe he wrote Romans. Also the favored hypothesis among skeptics is that Paul was epileptic, meaning his vision was a hallucination from a seizure and blindness was an after effect of the seizure, the more severe the seizure the stronger the after effects are generally speaking. This doesn't mean Paul couldn't have had a vision from God, or even couldn't have had a vision from God through epilepsy (if Paul had epilepsy, there is no way to tell exactly what happened since he lived 2,000 years ago), but it does mean it is possible to explain Paul's story without divine intervention. I think that is an important point to make because Paul is certainly a historical figure and his transformation from persecutor to apostle does warrant an explanation. But no, I do not think Paul was speaking on behalf of God. 



#10
FresnoJoe

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Are you speaking of the same Paul a.k.a. Saul that was knocked off a horse, given a vision of Jesus, Paul then becoming blinded by God and God later giving his sight back? The same Paul that persecuted Christians, then later after getting his sight back preached the gospel far and wide? Is there a chance that God called him to be a prophet and that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Romans 1:20 through the spirit of Paul. Your thoughts. Blessings D-9.

 

Yes the same Paul, I believe he wrote Romans. Also the favored hypothesis among skeptics is that Paul was epileptic, meaning his vision was a hallucination from a seizure and blindness was an after effect of the seizure, the more severe the seizure the stronger the after effects are generally speaking. This doesn't mean Paul couldn't have had a vision from God, or even couldn't have had a vision from God through epilepsy (if Paul had epilepsy, there is no way to tell exactly what happened since he lived 2,000 years ago), but it does mean it is possible to explain Paul's story without divine intervention. I think that is an important point to make because Paul is certainly a historical figure and his transformation from persecutor to apostle does warrant an explanation. But no, I do not think Paul was speaking on behalf of God. 

 

~

 

The Best

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

Blessings I Think I've Read Today

 

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:10-12

 

Pronounced Over The Testimony Of My Beloved Brother, Saul

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23



#11
FresnoJoe

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....But, of course, as a nonbeliever, I do not clearly perceive any divinity in the universe, at least not in the sense of theism or deism being clearly evident in nature. All Paul really does is make the assertion that creation speaks of design, but doesn't explain why, his justification appears to be that his position is just self evident. It might be self evident to him or you and every other Christian, but not to me and many others. So the battle cry of us nonbelievers would be, "show me". 

 

:thumbsup:

 

Show Me

 

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8

 

Show Me If You Can

 

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

 

Chirped The Grasshopper

 

Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. Isaiah 40:21-23

 

To His

 

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:6-7

 

KING

 

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:19-22

 

~

 

Oh Be Careful

 

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29
 

O be careful little mouth what you say

O be careful little mouth what you say

There's a Father up above

And He's looking down in love

So, be careful little mouth what you say http://www.joinmychu...hat_You_See.php

 

Love, Joe



#12
lemonvariable73

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How does an atheist and.or a believer see this scripture as?

Perspective and healthy opinions from both sides are welcome.

Please be kind in your posts, and try to listen to the other person. Blessings.

 

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
 

I'd like to focus on..

 

1. his invisible attributes

2. his eternal power and divine nature

3. clearly perceived

4. things that have been made

5. they are without excuse

 

6. Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

7. spiritual blindness?

8. denial?

 

- DRS81 :26: :th_handshake:

Well in my opinion first you have to establish his existance and that romans 1:20 and the rest of the bible is a accurate description



#13
DRS81

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Are you speaking of the same Paul a.k.a. Saul that was knocked off a horse, given a vision of Jesus, Paul then becoming blinded by God and God later giving his sight back? The same Paul that persecuted Christians, then later after getting his sight back preached the gospel far and wide? Is there a chance that God called him to be a prophet and that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Romans 1:20 through the spirit of Paul. Your thoughts. Blessings D-9.

 

Yes the same Paul, I believe he wrote Romans. Also the favored hypothesis among skeptics is that Paul was epileptic, meaning his vision was a hallucination from a seizure and blindness was an after effect of the seizure, the more severe the seizure the stronger the after effects are generally speaking. This doesn't mean Paul couldn't have had a vision from God, or even couldn't have had a vision from God through epilepsy (if Paul had epilepsy, there is no way to tell exactly what happened since he lived 2,000 years ago), but it does mean it is possible to explain Paul's story without divine intervention. I think that is an important point to make because Paul is certainly a historical figure and his transformation from persecutor to apostle does warrant an explanation. But no, I do not think Paul was speaking on behalf of God. 

 

Scripture is saying it was divine intervention..

 

Acts 9 The Conversion of Saul

1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" 5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11 And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." 13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened. For some days he was with the disciples at Damascus. 20 And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21 And all who heard him were amazed and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?" 22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.



#14
MorningGlory

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Are you speaking of the same Paul a.k.a. Saul that was knocked off a horse, given a vision of Jesus, Paul then becoming blinded by God and God later giving his sight back? The same Paul that persecuted Christians, then later after getting his sight back preached the gospel far and wide? Is there a chance that God called him to be a prophet and that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Romans 1:20 through the spirit of Paul. Your thoughts. Blessings D-9.

 

Yes the same Paul, I believe he wrote Romans. Also the favored hypothesis among skeptics is that Paul was epileptic, meaning his vision was a hallucination from a seizure and blindness was an after effect of the seizure, the more severe the seizure the stronger the after effects are generally speaking. This doesn't mean Paul couldn't have had a vision from God, or even couldn't have had a vision from God through epilepsy (if Paul had epilepsy, there is no way to tell exactly what happened since he lived 2,000 years ago), but it does mean it is possible to explain Paul's story without divine intervention. I think that is an important point to make because Paul is certainly a historical figure and his transformation from persecutor to apostle does warrant an explanation. But no, I do not think Paul was speaking on behalf of God. 

 

 

Just tossing out the theory that Paul was an epileptic (yes, I know it's not your personal theory) is kind of a stretch, don't you think?  There isn't even a sound reason to entertain that theory.  :hmmm:



#15
danieldb

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How does an atheist and.or a believer see this scripture as?

Perspective and healthy opinions from both sides are welcome.

Please be kind in your posts, and try to listen to the other person. Blessings.

 

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
 

I'd like to focus on..

 

1. his invisible attributes

2. his eternal power and divine nature

3. clearly perceived

4. things that have been made

5. they are without excuse

 

6. Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

7. spiritual blindness?

8. denial?

 

- DRS81 :26: :th_handshake:

 

It's Paul preaching to the choir I believe, perhaps we are looking at the precursor of the teleological argument in the Christian tradition, i.e. the argument from design. I see the passage as all bark but no bite. 

 

1-5: I believe Paul is saying that the world is so magnificent that the only way it could happen is through God. To him it is so clear he doesn't see how anyone could disagree with him, and if they do they are therefore "fools" (verse 22) without excuse. 

 

His invisible attributes are his power and nature, which is imbued in creation, and because such power is clearly perceived in creation we are without excuse to acknowledge God, and perhaps even acknowledge the Christian God, because creation speaks of a designer. 

 

6-8: But, of course, as a nonbeliever, I do not clearly perceive any divinity in the universe, at least not in the sense of theism or deism being clearly evident in nature. All Paul really does is make the assertion that creation speaks of design, but doesn't explain why, his justification appears to be that his position is just self evident. It might be self evident to him or you and every other Christian, but not to me and many others. So the battle cry of us nonbelievers would be, "show me". 

 

Paul doesn't give a specific argument, which is probably a very good thing for Christianity overall (people's understanding of basic things like germs and the existence of gravity or how epilepsy is a bad thing was all foreign 2,000 years ago, so any specific argument would probably be equivalent to Bill O'Reilly's argument for God, "you can't explain the tides"). So it is up to contemporary apologists to give us specific arguments of design, like WillfromTexas mentioning Earth's distance from the Sun. 

 

 

Greetings, D-9! Having been an athiest, and a quite militant one, for much of my life, I understand somewhat how you feel about all this. Regarding claims about Paul's health or mental state, those are certainly claims that require evidence, of which none exists.

 

Paul's specific argument goes along these lines: I give you a deck of playing cards, and I tell you to throw it into the air. What results from your action? Nothing resembling design. You can repeat this an infinite number of times, and you will never get anything at all. I then give you a deck of playing cards and tell you to build a house of cards. You build a house of cards, something clearly designed, and design is evident from what you've built. The level of complexity involved is very minimal, not even close to the kind of interdependent complexity observable in living creatures and the laws of physics.

 

Incredible complexity of design does not originate from nothing, or from an absence of intention. Even a very simple design does not originate by chance. That's the argument. It's incredibly straightforward, but I could not understand it for most of my life! I didn't understand because I chose to believe that God did not exist. I was a strict materialist and evolutionist, and I thought people who believed in God were uneducated. I was a fool. I am still a fool in many ways :)

 

I have suffered intensely for my foolishness, and while I most definitely love God, I also fear Him, because while He might suffer foolishness for a while, He certainly won't do that forever. God is a loving spiritual parent, and He does correct foolishness, because He desires something greater for his spiritual offspring. Sometimes He corrects people in ways that are terrifying, and that's what has happened to me. To quote the apostle himself:

 

2Co 5:11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

There are fates worse than death, worse than hardship or terror. God fights for us, for our protection and wellbeing, and He is not willing that any should perish. I state with certainty: Jesus Christ is real. He is a real person, and He is really God's Son, and He is really God! He was here in the flesh 2,000 years ago, and He is present in Spirit right now! We have not made Jesus Christ any less real with our knowledge or inventions. He is still with us, and He is a mighty God with which we have to deal! And when I say we HAVE to deal with Him, I mean that is not optional at all! If you don't address Him directly in this life, you most certainly are going to encounter him once you die (I pray that is not your end).

 

Isa 45:9  Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
 

Is an atheist without excuse for their denial of reality? Absolutely! But to say that I was without excuse does not mean I didn't have reasons for my belief. My reasons were no excuse, but I have been granted mercy by a God who is merciful to foolish sons. To me, that's amazing! Instead of a place where natural selection sheds oceans of blood for nothing, from nothing, we have a reality in which Jesus Christ shed his blood to redeem us from the law's condemnation, showing us the depths of His love for us, in spite of us! We have not only a good spiritual Father, but a mighty warrior who fights for us, even when we are resisting his goodness! That gives me joy!

 

If you have been deceived by evolutionary theory, the best place to start freeing yourself is the fossil record. Think about the amount of time evolutionists require to produce modern humans, or any observable species, and think about the number of transitional creatures supposedly populating that span of time. Should be a veritable treasury of fossil evidence. If we have a complete skeleton of a t-rex in a museum, we should have an entire museum hall full of transitional forms leading up to the t-rex, and I am talking about COMPLETE SKELETONS of many, many transitional forms leading up to the real species, the real animal, that we know existed from the fossil record. And what the evolutionists have are speculative illustrations based on scraps of bone of debatable origin, and scraps that are really difficult to find, at that. In the case of pre-humans they offer gorilla skulltops, chimpanzee skulls, human femurs, and human teeth, all mixed together. That's absurd. God has said the scorner is an abomination, and I wish I had the strength to never be scornful of anyone, but I'm still somewhat angry at how I was deceived by evolutionary theory. There should be millions of COMPLETE transitional skeletal forms available, at every level of the geologic record, everywhere people dig (and people dig everywhere, at all depths). There's nothing.

 

Also, be aware that the geologic record is no record at all. There are modern human skeletons (complete skeletons) at the "oldest" layer, along with stone tools, and there are supposedly ancient bones at the topmost layers, complete with stone tools. If you've been told differently, you've been deceived.

 

I suggest reading about the assumptions built into carbon-14 dating, also: http://www.answersin...prove-the-bible

 

Answers in Genesis is a good resource for debunking evolutionary theory. I am not a scientist or even a diligent student of science. I know God makes foolishness the wisdom of this world, and unfortunately I know that from humbling experience after humbling experience. But I also know that I trust God, because God is love. I pray you find peace in what he desires to bring about in your life: love, joy, peace, meekness, gentleness, longsuffering, goodness, faith. And I pray nothing I have said hinders you in your search, and I commend your search! It is more than worthwhile to ask the questions you are asking. Seek and ye shall find.

 

1Ti 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21  Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

 

1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

1Jn 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.



#16
D-9

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Just tossing out the theory that Paul was an epileptic (yes, I know it's not your personal theory) is kind of a stretch, don't you think?  There isn't even a sound reason to entertain that theory.  :hmmm:

 

It is certainly not my idea, and people used to call epilepsy Saint Paul's disease in the past. So it isn't just some modern invention by us godless liberals. There's a famous paper from a neurology journal that talks about it in mostly nontechnical terms, albeit 5 pages long: St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy

 

A lot of people point to several of Paul's letters where he talks about some chronic physical illness that pains him, how he asks God to deliver him several times and God refuses, and how Paul alludes that he doesn't have full control over his physical body. Paul talks about how his physical illness is a trial to the people around him, and he thanks people for not rejecting him - literally for not spitting on him. People used to spit on people that had epilepsy, just one of the things you culturally do. Paul talks about multiple visions from multiple years, talks about being in Heaven and how wonderful it is. People with epilepsy do hallucinate, and have auras which patients describe as "Heaven". Even Paul's blindness is a known symptom of epilepsy post-seizure, it can last several minutes to a week. My point here is that there are correlations between Paul's experiences and what we know about epilepsy, it isn't just a stab in the dark even if it turns out to be wrong. 

 

The broader point I want to make is that we are talking about someone that lived 2,000 years ago without anything close to modern medicine or understanding, we are talking about people that believed the organ called the heart was responsible for our thoughts instead of our brain. To say definitively what happened seems a stretch to me. There are proposed miracles all around the world from every culture and time, and Christians seem to be quite skeptical about supernatural claims when it doesn't involve their specific holy books. I am merely taking away this conventional taboo of looking at the Bible as we would any other ancient text. And in that spirit I think it is more likely that Paul was struck by a physical ailment, whether we can pinpoint exactly what it is or not, which the people at the time naturally attached spiritual significance to, rather than Paul being blinded by God. 



#17
DRS81

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So it isn't just some modern invention by us godless liberals.

 

The broader point I want to make is that we are talking about someone that lived 2,000 years ago without anything close to modern medicine or understanding, we are talking about people that believed the organ called the heart was responsible for our thoughts instead of our brain. To say definitively what happened seems a stretch to me. There are proposed miracles all around the world..

 

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.



#18
ConnorLiamBrown

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How does an atheist and.or a believer see this scripture as?

Perspective and healthy opinions from both sides are welcome.

Please be kind in your posts, and try to listen to the other person. Blessings.

 

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
 

I'd like to focus on..

 

1. his invisible attributes

2. his eternal power and divine nature

3. clearly perceived

4. things that have been made

5. they are without excuse

 

6. Does this scripture HELP atheists understand or no?

7. spiritual blindness?

8. denial?

 

- DRS81 :26: :th_handshake:

I am glad this was brought up.  This passage has always been problematic to me.  Especially when I came across Pascal who claimed no canonical author ever used Nature to prove the existence of God....I am sure Pascal knew his Bible; I have no idea how he discounted this passage as a counter-example.

 

Perhaps viewing nature will lead a person to attribute it all to a god. In fact, it did (Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics etc.).  But will creation alone lead you to the conception of our God?  Even more so, a Trinitarian God?  There is nothing in nature that would lead me to think it was created by a loving, forgiving, yet commanding God. Nature is beautiful, but it is ruthless.

 

I don't understand Paul's argument here.  It is almost contrary to the need of supernatural revelation.

 

clb



#19
DRS81

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I am glad this was brought up.  This passage has always been problematic to me.  Especially when I came across Pascal who claimed no canonical author ever used Nature to prove the existence of God....I am sure Pascal knew his Bible; I have no idea how he discounted this passage as a counter-example.

Perhaps viewing nature will lead a person to attribute it all to a god. In fact, it did (Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics etc.).  But will creation alone lead you to the conception of our God?  Even more so, a Trinitarian God?  There is nothing in nature that would lead me to think it was created by a loving, forgiving, yet commanding God. Nature is beautiful, but it is ruthless.

 

I don't understand Paul's argument here.  It is almost contrary to the need of supernatural revelation.

 

clb

 

Paul had the Holy Spirit, that's why he wrote Romans 1:20. Many people can worship wrong spirits, these spirits are not filled with truth. The only spirit one should be seeking is the Holy Spirit. All a nonbeliever needs to do is to admit they are a sinner and that the Lord is their savior, and the Holy Spirit will fill you up. (Romans 10:9). When a nonbeliever comes to faith and his baptized in the Holy Spirit, only then do they believe that this same spirit came from the God creator of the universe. A person would have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit for them to understand the spirit of creation. Only through faith and belief do we believe. I will pray that God draws you in to his loving grace CLB. - DRS81  :)



#20
ConnorLiamBrown

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I am glad this was brought up.  This passage has always been problematic to me.  Especially when I came across Pascal who claimed no canonical author ever used Nature to prove the existence of God....I am sure Pascal knew his Bible; I have no idea how he discounted this passage as a counter-example.

Perhaps viewing nature will lead a person to attribute it all to a god. In fact, it did (Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics etc.).  But will creation alone lead you to the conception of our God?  Even more so, a Trinitarian God?  There is nothing in nature that would lead me to think it was created by a loving, forgiving, yet commanding God. Nature is beautiful, but it is ruthless.

 

I don't understand Paul's argument here.  It is almost contrary to the need of supernatural revelation.

 

clb

 

Paul had the Holy Spirit, that's why he wrote Romans 1:20. Many people can worship wrong spirits, these spirits are not filled with truth. The only spirit one should be seeking is the Holy Spirit. All a nonbeliever needs to do is to admit they are a sinner and that the Lord is their savior, and the Holy Spirit will fill you up. (Romans 10:9). When a nonbeliever comes to faith and his baptized in the Holy Spirit, only then do they believe that this same spirit came from the God creator of the universe. A person would have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit for them to understand the spirit of creation. Only through faith and belief do we believe. I will pray that God draws you in to his loving grace CLB. - DRS81  :)

 

Yeah, I know I am listed as a Seeker.  Actually, I am a believer, but apparently the leaders of this site have the final word on that....which I don't mind really...let me be deemed a seeker on this site till infinity.  But I believe Christ is my Lord and Savior.

 

The verse in question said that by nature alone one could perceive certain characteristics of God....i.e. without the Holy Spirit, without the Bible, without baptism etc.  My point is that, when I look at nature (and by an imaginative effort ignore what I have learned from other quarters, like theology and Scripture) I don't see how one could come to believe in a loving God, still less a Trinitarian God.  A very powerful god?  Perhaps.  But the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob?  The God who raised Jesus from the grave?  No.

 

clb






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