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OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth


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#1
shiloh357

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Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

Now fast forward to the end of the age in the book of Revelation chapters 21 and 22.  

 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  Rev 21:1-5

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:1-3

 

Compare this with the following end times description offered by Isaiah: 

 

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 11:6-9

 

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:17-25

 

Notice that in connection with Christ’s reign in the New Heavens and New Earth  the Bible speaks of no more curse, pain, death, tears, and this includes the animal kingdom according to the passages listed above all of which refer to the same time period.

 

All of this occurs AFTER sin is eradicated from the world.  We can know what the original earth was like before sin by looking at what the world will be like after sin is gone.  

 

Yet the OEC would have us believe that the death and decay, the predator/prey relationship that existed between animals all of that was part of what God called “very good.”  

 

So if that is what the world was like prior to sin, how come we don’t get this same picture of the earth after sin is eradicated?   Why would God need to renovate the earth and get of all death of both man and beast if that was what He considered good and perfect to begin with?    Why is sin connected to the physical death of both man and beast in terms of eschatology, but not connected to them relevant to their original creation?

 

Clearly if death and decay were so good that God felt He had created the best possible world for man to live in, it is hard to explain how God could have made a better world with no death of any man or animal.   Is the world with death and decay better than the one made with no death of any kind of animal or human being?   If the latter is better, than it stands to reason, it would have to have been at least as good as the original, and that means the original earth had no death either.   The OEC view that death and decay within the created order existed prior to man’s sin doesn’t hold water, theologically  because death and decay among the animals is connected to  sin in Revelation 21.



#2
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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?



#3
WillfromTexas

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Of course death isn't part of God's plan and not part of what God intended.  God describes death as an enemy.  While I believe Adam surrendered the deed to Earth to Satan and Jesus will reclaim that deed.  While Adam was in Eden - Satan was running around with millions of angels.  Were these demons possessing animals and causing death?  They obviously have the ability to possess animals and manipulate them.  Had the enemy of Death already been loosed by Lucifer?

 

The main point is we do not know.  The Bible doesn't say specifically and you're trying to make it say what you want.  You might be right and the Earth is very young with apparent age.  Or you might be wrong and there was much more going on than was revealed to us in scripture.  Everything hangs on your definition of Day which God uses quite liberally to describe 24 hours or ages.  Having a number modifier doesn't mean much if they weren't in the original manuscripts.

 

1 Corinthians 15:25-27

Amplified Bible (AMP)

25 For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.

27 For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ’s] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him.

 

 



#4
Enoch2021

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Of course death isn't part of God's plan and not part of what God intended.  God describes death as an enemy.  While I believe Adam surrendered the deed to Earth to Satan and Jesus will reclaim that deed.  While Adam was in Eden - Satan was running around with millions of angels.  Were these demons possessing animals and causing death?  They obviously have the ability to possess animals and manipulate them.  Had the enemy of Death already been loosed by Lucifer?

 

The main point is we do not know.  The Bible doesn't say specifically and you're trying to make it say what you want.  You might be right and the Earth is very young with apparent age.  Or you might be wrong and there was much more going on than was revealed to us in scripture.  Everything hangs on your definition of Day which God uses quite liberally to describe 24 hours or ages.  Having a number modifier doesn't mean much if they weren't in the original manuscripts.

 

1 Corinthians 15:25-27

Amplified Bible (AMP)

25 For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.

27 For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ’s] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him.

 

 

 

 

"While Adam was in Eden - Satan was running around with millions of angels."

 

Can you please show Chapter and Verse where the angels (fallen?) were "Running Around" with satan in or outside of Eden and where it says "Millions" of them?

 

"Were these demons possessing animals and causing death?"

 

First, nowhere in Genesis does it state demon possession.
Second, you're equivocating angels and demons.  Do a word search first with angels and then demons.  (The AKJV calls them "devils") List angels in one column and demons in another then compare and contrast the list of attributes for each. Are they different?

 

"Had the enemy of Death already been loosed by Lucifer?"

I think a better question would be; "did GOD allow satan to loose them?" The clear answer to that is----NO.  If yes, please show Chapter and Verse.

 

"The Bible doesn't say specifically"

The Bible doesn't say specifically that satan wasn't riding a six winged Pegasus in Eden.... so, should we leave our options open to the possibility?

 

"Having a number modifier doesn't mean much if they weren't in the original manuscripts".

 

When it is modified by a numeral or ordinal in historical narrative (359 times in the OT outside Gen. 1), it always means a literal day of 24 hours. When modified by “evening and/or morning”, (38 times outside Gen. 1), it always means a literal day.  So comparing Scripture with Scripture and context....it's quite compelling.

Also.... are you implying that they weren't in the Original Manuscripts?  Then implying that they were somehow added later?  If so, that brings us to a bigger issue then ...what can we trust as Absolute TRUTH in the Holy Bible sir?



#5
bopeep1909

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It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.



#6
LookingForAnswers

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It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 



#7
shiloh357

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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.



#8
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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?



#9
shiloh357

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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.



#10
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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.

 

 

But by your own words, the New Heavens and New Earth will be different in that sin will not be even a possibility, so God is not just restoring what was lost, but making it even better.  



#11
shiloh357

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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.

 

 

But by your own words, the New Heavens and New Earth will be different in that sin will not be even a possibility, so God is not just restoring what was lost, but making it even better.  

 

Sin will not be a possibility because it will be eradicated and satan and his followers will be trapped in everlasting destruction.

 

God restores the earth to its original sinlessness with no death or decay.   So it will be what it was BEFORE sin when it is "very good" meaning that it was beyond improvement to begin with.   



#12
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Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

 

Thanks, that is what I felt also, and in a different thread that seems to be the consensus as well.  Based on this it would seem that the New Heavens and New Earth are then indeed "better" of "superior" to even what God originally created, would you not agree?

 

No.   Because the Bible teaches that death, decay, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles all came about because of sin.   Death was not hardwired into creation by God.   So what we see in Revelation 21 is a return to what God intended after sin has been removed from the world.

 

So from the standpoint of their not being any death or decay in the renvovated sinless New Earth, it is precisely what God intended for the original earth before Adam brought sin into the world.

 

It needs to be pointed out that salvation history from the time Adam sinned until the New Heavens and New Earth is all about God restoring what was lost when Adam brought sin into the world.   God is restoring everything, both fallen man and a fallen, broken decaying world/universe.

 

 

But by your own words, the New Heavens and New Earth will be different in that sin will not be even a possibility, so God is not just restoring what was lost, but making it even better.  

 

Sin will not be a possibility because it will be eradicated and satan and his followers will be trapped in everlasting destruction.

 

God restores the earth to its original sinlessness with no death or decay.   So it will be what it was BEFORE sin when it is "very good" meaning that it was beyond improvement to begin with.   

 

 

It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.



#13
shiloh357

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It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.



#14
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It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.

 

 

True, God does not need to add anything, but it does seem that there is something that will be taken away, thus making it even better.   And no, the NE and NH will not be the same, they will be lacking something that made our world what it is today



#15
shiloh357

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It will not be the same as it was before, there will be something missing, the possibility of sin will be missing, thus it will be improved.  "Very good' does not have to mean beyond improvement.

 

 

You are trying to skirt around the point.   The point is that when sin is eradicated there will be no death, period. The lack of a possibilituy of sin isn't because God created it better than He did the first time.  The lack of any possibility of sin is because the source of sin has been destroyed.

 

My point is that the sinlessness of the NH and NE will be the same, thus returning the earth to previous pre-sin conditions that existed when the earth was created.  Those conditions include the fact there was no death of either man or beast.  

 

If you are going to address the OP, you need to address the substance of what was provided there. 

 

And yes, "very good" in Hebrew does carry the connotation of absolutely good with no possible improvement.  God doesn't do things any other way.  There is no sliding scale of "good" with God.  He is absolutely good and perfect and everything He does reflects that aspect of his nature.  So when God said in the strongest way possible how good creation was, it means that He didn't need to add anything to the perfect world He created.

 

 

True, God does not need to add anything, but it does seem that there is something that will be taken away, thus making it even better.   And no, the NE and NH will not be the same, they will be lacking something that made our world what it is today

 

It will be same in terms of no death, no sin and no decay.   There was no death, no sin and no decay in eiether animal, or human life.   Nothing that God did not engineer into the first world will be in the NE.

 

So this attempt to parse over the "possibility of sin" is just an lame attempt at skirting around the substance of the OP.

 

The bottom line is that the NH and NE reveal that the OEC claim that the death of animals over millions of years is a false claim.



#16
GoldenEagle

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It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

 

Nobody is talking about a football game. We are discussing OEC, New Heaven, New Earth, etc.

I believe Bo is saying she believes the literal account of Genesis. Is this the case Bo?



#17
bopeep1909

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It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

I am talking about Biblical issues not football.



#18
bopeep1909

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It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

 

Last week the Saints beat the Eagles in a football game.  that is not in the bible, do you then refuse to believe it? 

 

 

Nobody is talking about a football game. We are discussing OEC, New Heaven, New Earth, etc.

I believe Bo is saying she believes the literal account of Genesis. Is this the case Bo?

 

Yes GE  :mgcheerful:



#19
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Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

I find it curious that it talks about a "new Heaven", as well as a new Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, Heaven is where God lives, and where God is there can be no sin as God is holy. So shouldn't Heaven, by definition, be perfect as Heaven will not be defiled by sin? So why make a new Heaven? Seems redundant. 

 

I have also always assumed that Heaven was controlled by different laws than the natural world, instead of natural law we would be dealing with supernatural/spiritual law. So I am wondering if perhaps the laws of the new Earth will be switched with the laws that govern Heaven? 

 

You see, in the natural world energy cannot be created or destroyed, nor can a system be 100% efficient with energy, which is related to the second law of thermodynamics - decay. My point is maybe, given the constraints of natural law, physical death is necessarily "Tov Meod" insofar as natural law will allow (assume a creature learned to live virtually forever, it still could not live forever as the universe's energy slowly becomes useless as entropy increases) - to God it was Tov Meod for the purpose he designated to the world. Just an idea I had. 

 

Also, whenever I read Genesis, God clearly states to Adam that the "day" you eat from the tree is the "day" you die. I think it is self explanatory that Adam didn't physically die that day, so I am curious as to your take on that passage in relation to the OP. 



#20
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I find it curious that it talks about a "new Heaven", as well as a new Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong, Heaven is where God lives, and where God is there can be no sin as God is holy. So shouldn't Heaven, by definition, be perfect as Heaven will not be defiled by sin? So why make a new Heaven? Seems redundant.

 

I think it has to do with new resurrected bodies and rewards at the Bema seat.

The first heaven delt with salvation through a fallen world.

The new heaven consists of God's will being complete through rewards and resurrected bodies.

New earth means what it means, that satan will be cast into the lake of fire and the new earth will be without sin.






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