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Ezekial 38, 39 - before or after the Tribulation?

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#1
OakWood

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.



#2
Izzel

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

It the battle of armageddon into the 1000 yr 

It has nothing to do with after the 1000 yr



#3
Izzel

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

What makes you doubt ?

 

Thank you 



#4
OakWood

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

What makes you doubt ?

 

Thank you 

 

I'm not sure. I was reading it again today and I couldn't see how God destroying Israel's enemies who attack would actually allow the antiChrist to enter Jerusalem. There seems to be no room or place for it.



#5
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shiloh357 is best to ask ..about OP. Blessings.



#6
bopeep1909

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In Ezekiel's prophecy,Gog will be the leader of a great army that attacks the land of Israel.Ezekiel's battle of Gog and Magog occurs in the tribulation period,more specifically in the first 31/2 years.Israel definately is not at peace right now,and it is inconceivable that the nation would lay down its defenses apart from some major event.When Israel's covenent with the antichrist is in effect at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week(the tribulation) Israel will be at peace.According to Ezekiel,Gog will be defeated by God Himself on the mountains of Israel.

Gog and Magog are mentioned again in Revelation 20:7-8.It is important to note that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel is quite different than from the one in Revelation 20:7-8.

1) In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39,the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth Ezekiel 38:6,15:39:2.

 

2) There is no mention of Satan in the context of Ezekiel 38-39.In Revelation 20:7 the context clearly places the battle at the end of the millenium with Satan as the primary character.

 

3) Ezekiel 39:11-12 states that the dead will be buried for seven months.There would be no need to bury the dead if the battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is the one described in Revelation 20:8-9 for immediately following is the Great White throne judgment Revelation 20:11-15 and then the current or present heaven and earth are destroyed,replaced by a new heaven and earth Revelation 21:1.There obviously will be a need to bury dead if the battle takes place in the early part of the tribulation,for the land of Israel will be occupied for another 1,000 years,the length of the millenium kingdom Revelation 20:4-6.

 

4) The battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is used by God to bring Israel back to Him Ezekiel 39:21-29. In Revelation 20,Israel has been faithful to God for 1,000 years (the millenial kingdom). Those in Revelation 20:7-10 who are rebellious are destroyed without any more opportunity for repentance.



#7
ARGOSY

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

I believe the Ezekiel war is post-trib, its the same Armageddon war where Jesus intervenes as per Rev 19.

 

1) Its not the Rev 20 Gog/Magog war, as Bobeep pointed out, there are differences.

2) The 7 years of fuel, are the first 7 years of the millenium

3) Israel is at peace because the antichrist and Islam will be at peace until Gog attacks

4/5) n/a the Ezekiel war finalizes the tribulation

 

I believe the following verses indicate the second coming context of the Gog war: The great feast occurs at the second coming (Rev 19)

Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind

 

The great earthquake is associated with the second coming as per Rev 6:12

In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.



#8
OakWood

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I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

I believe the Ezekiel war is post-trib, its the same Armageddon war where Jesus intervenes as per Rev 19.

 

1) Its not the Rev 20 Gog/Magog war, as Bobeep pointed out, there are differences.

2) The 7 years of fuel, are the first 7 years of the millenium

3) Israel is at peace because the antichrist and Islam will be at peace until Gog attacks

4/5) n/a the Ezekiel war finalizes the tribulation

 

I believe the following verses indicate the second coming context of the Gog war: The great feast occurs at the second coming (Rev 19)

Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind

 

The great earthquake is associated with the second coming as per Rev 6:12

In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.

 

 

The only problem with this is that Israel is not at peace during the Great Trib, at least not peace as I would call it. There is meant to be a time of massive persecutions taking place. People will be beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast and those who take the mark have no prospect of salvation. Yet after the war, Israel is rewarded.



#9
ARGOSY

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The only problem with this is that Israel is not at peace during the Great Trib, at least not peace as I would call it. There is meant to be a time of massive persecutions taking place. People will be beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast and those who take the mark have no prospect of salvation. Yet after the war, Israel is rewarded.

 

 

I believe Israel will be at peace during the great tribulation. I believe Revelation 12 alludes to this peace. Israel (the woman) is protected.

Persecution takes place everywhere else, but not in Israel, ethnic Israel is protected, whether Judaism or Christian. We know from Joel 2 that there will be many Jews getting saved just before the Day of the Lord. The holy Spirit pours out on them. They have more religious freedom to choose , its assumed they have less pressure to take the mark than the rest of the world. Even the second coming awaits the 144 000, so huge masses of Jews get saved right until the second coming. 

 

After the war Israel is rewarded during the millenium. Its Israel's period of peace under the Messiah.



#10
OakWood

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The only problem with this is that Israel is not at peace during the Great Trib, at least not peace as I would call it. There is meant to be a time of massive persecutions taking place. People will be beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast and those who take the mark have no prospect of salvation. Yet after the war, Israel is rewarded.

 

 

I believe Israel will be at peace during the great tribulation. I believe Revelation 12 alludes to this peace. Israel (the woman) is protected.

Persecution takes place everywhere else, but not in Israel, ethnic Israel is protected, whether Judaism or Christian. We know from Joel 2 that there will be many Jews getting saved just before the Day of the Lord. The holy Spirit pours out on them. They have more religious freedom to choose , its assumed they have less pressure to take the mark than the rest of the world. Even the second coming awaits the 144 000, so huge masses of Jews get saved right until the second coming. 

 

After the war Israel is rewarded during the millenium. Its Israel's period of peace under the Messiah.

 

 

I'm not sure that is scripturally accurate. What makes you think that Israel will have more freedom to choose? Are you saying that everybody will be expected to take the mark, but Israel will be exempt?



#11
rollinTHUNDER

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A few points:
 
1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?


No, I believe these are separated by 1000 years. The leader, Gog, is not a man. He is the prince of Rosh, which many believe is the territory of Russia today. I believe he is an angel on the dark side, opposite Michael, the prince that protects God's people.
 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?


There's not a whole lot to go on about the seven years. It's very vague and can be placed anywhere, but I believe it will be on this side of the millennium and possibly into it.
 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.


I believe Ezekiel 38 will begin after the abomination of desolation and this could very easily be the great tribulation that Christ mentioned and the time of trouble in Dan. 12:1. And since God, Himself, intervenes, this may be where the tribulation of those days is cut short for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be saved.
 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?


I see the Psalm 83 war before Daniel's 70th week begins, and will probably be the reason a peace settlement is initiated and confirmed.
 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?


I believe we will see the Psalm 83 war before Daniel's 70th week, then Ezekiel 38 as the great tribulation (rapture), followed by Armageddon, which is the judgment of the nations (sheep & goats) at the end of the age.

Cheers

#12
ARGOSY

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I'm not sure that is scripturally accurate. What makes you think that Israel will have more freedom to choose? Are you saying that everybody will be expected to take the mark, but Israel will be exempt?

 

 



 

That is definitely what I believe the scriptures are hinting at. Its the fact that Jews are protected and the number of Jews able to receive salvation just before the second coming makes me think they are temporarily exempt. If they had the mark they would not be able to be saved, but the 144 000 and the masses in Joel all receive salvation close to the day of the Lord, and so they obviously have not been marked yet, the way of salvation is still open to them. Have you got an alternative explanation?

 

Also the wording in some translations is like this: (KJV)

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

That verse means there are alternative ways to buy and sell, here's some possibilities:

Mark of the beast = microchip (mainly for western countries)

The number of the beast = Islam (Moslems may buy or sell)

The name of the beast = the citizens of the beast country (the people of the false Christ)


Edited by ARGOSY, 14 January 2014 - 02:45 AM.


#13
Spock

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The only problem with this is that Israel is not at peace during the Great Trib, at least not peace as I would call it. There is meant to be a time of massive persecutions taking place. People will be beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast and those who take the mark have no prospect of salvation. Yet after the war, Israel is rewarded.

 
I believe Israel will be at peace during the great tribulation. I believe Revelation 12 alludes to this peace. Israel (the woman) is protected.
Persecution takes place everywhere else, but not in Israel, ethnic Israel is protected, whether Judaism or Christian. We know from Joel 2 that there will be many Jews getting saved just before the Day of the Lord. The holy Spirit pours out on them. They have more religious freedom to choose , its assumed they have less pressure to take the mark than the rest of the world. Even the second coming awaits the 144 000, so huge masses of Jews get saved right until the second coming. 
 
After the war Israel is rewarded during the millenium. Its Israel's period of peace under the Messiah.

Hi brother argosy,

Love reading your posts by the way.

I'm scratching my head over one thing you said, so if you wouldn't mind a wee bit more clarity here.

You said you believed Israel was at peace during the great trib, which I think most of us agree is the last 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week. I also believe it commences at the abomination of desolation, with the ac defaming the temple and proclaiming he is God and to be worshipped. This doesn't sound like a good peaceful thing for Israel.

Please explain where we differ in our thoughts, or have I misunderstood you here.

Thanks.

#14
shiloh357

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1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

No. The war mentioned in Eze. 38-39 is a regional war mounted by a coolition of nations that attack Israel from the North.  The war of Armageddon metioned in Revelation is a war in which all of the nations of the world are aligned against Israel.

 

 



#15
OakWood

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I'm not sure that is scripturally accurate. What makes you think that Israel will have more freedom to choose? Are you saying that everybody will be expected to take the mark, but Israel will be exempt?

 

 



 

That is definitely what I believe the scriptures are hinting at. Its the fact that Jews are protected and the number of Jews able to receive salvation just before the second coming makes me think they are temporarily exempt. If they had the mark they would not be able to be saved, but the 144 000 and the masses in Joel all receive salvation close to the day of the Lord, and so they obviously have not been marked yet, the way of salvation is still open to them. Have you got an alternative explanation?

 

Also the wording in some translations is like this: (KJV)

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

That verse means there are alternative ways to buy and sell, here's some possibilities:

Mark of the beast = microchip (mainly for western countries)

The number of the beast = Islam (Moslems may buy or sell)

The name of the beast = the citizens of the beast country (the people of the false Christ)

 

 

I thought that the 144,000 fled and went into hiding.



#16
ARGOSY

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Hi brother argosy,

Love reading your posts by the way.

I'm scratching my head over one thing you said, so if you wouldn't mind a wee bit more clarity here.

You said you believed Israel was at peace during the great trib, which I think most of us agree is the last 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week. I also believe it commences at the abomination of desolation, with the ac defaming the temple and proclaiming he is God and to be worshipped. This doesn't sound like a good peaceful thing for Israel.

Please explain where we differ in our thoughts, or have I misunderstood you here.

Thanks.

 

Hi Spock, its not a good peaceful time for Israel, its a bad peaceful time for Israel. I relate the Gog attack to the Joel attack. Both armies are described as the northern army (Joel 2:20, Ezekiel 39:2). In both cases Israel is in need of repentance, so the great tribulation period is a time of compromise for Israel, compromise with the world, that is why Ezekiel describes them at peace, that is why Joel describes them as needing repentance.

 

Ezekiel 39:26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.

Joel 2:The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful.  Who can endure it. "Even now,” declares the Lord,  “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.

 

Jesus warns of false Christs in Matthew 24 associated with these deceiving sign and wonders, and deceiving signs and wonders are also associated with the antichrist in 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13, so the obvious deduction from Jesus' words and from the venue of the antichrist's coming to power (the temple mount) is that in fact the antichrist will be a false Christ (false Jewish leader). Adnan Oktar, a widely renowned and popular Moslem scholar is already promoting the idea of a Jewish Messiah for world peace, and so the concept of Islam accepting a Jewish Messiah is not as far-fetched as we may think.

 

During this period, many Jews come to Christ, I suspect the reason for this is that they are a faithful remnant who are not quite convinced of the false Messiah's credentials and behaviour, this stirs up their desire for the truth and they then recognize who their true Messiah is, Jesus. Many will come to Christ then, while the rest of the world church goes underground. The two witnesses are however completely public, and Rev 12 speaks of this protection for Israel, and so I suspect that this antichrist will give the Jews time to accept him as their Messiah. He will tolerate the hesitancy of the Jews and give them 3.5 years "grace period" to accept them as the Messiah. They are therefore exempt from the mark, and may get saved right until the second coming, as per Joel's day of the Lord.



#17
ARGOSY

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I thought that the 144,000 fled and went into hiding.

 

 

 

I checked out Rev 7 and Rev 14 and can't see any hint that they went into hiding. My view is the rest of the church is in hiding, but not the Jewish church.



#18
ARGOSY

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1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

No. The war mentioned in Eze. 38-39 is a regional war mounted by a coolition of nations that attack Israel from the North.  The war of Armageddon metioned in Revelation is a war in which all of the nations of the world are aligned against Israel.

 

Even the coalition of Ezekiel is from the north, the south and the east. (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Togarmah, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya) AND many people.

 

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.



#19
shiloh357

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1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

No. The war mentioned in Eze. 38-39 is a regional war mounted by a coolition of nations that attack Israel from the North.  The war of Armageddon metioned in Revelation is a war in which all of the nations of the world are aligned against Israel.

 

Even the coalition of Ezekiel is from the north, the south and the east. (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Togarmah, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya) AND many people.

 

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

 

Most of those nations are still located in the near east.  The only exception being the possibility that the cooilition is led by Russia.   But the war of Armageddon is described much differently, as being far more global referencing every nation on earth.  That would include nations not mentioned in Ezek. 38-39



#20
rollinTHUNDER

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Just to bring some clarity, I believe brother WillowWood was asking whether or not the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel 38 & 39 are the same as Revelation 20:7-10, not Armageddon.
 
 
Cheers




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