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Two Israels / Two Torahs / Two Covenants / Two Tabernacles

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#1
JohnDB

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Now that we have the completed Bible (the full Word of God) we can interpret all of it from the perspective of its fullness.

 

Part of what hinders us in getting at the Truth is traditional interpretations formed from partial revelation. Add to that humanist traditions / interpolations / opinions which cause division, and you pretty much see the modern day landscape in the Body Christian. Division, majoring in the traditions of men, minoring in the Truth, religious costumes and pomp and regalia and goofy rites and rituals...

 

Friends and brethren...

 

These are not what God wants from us or for us!

 

These are not the courts of final arbitration that we have made them into. Only the Bible is.

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

John 17:17 (NASB95)
17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

 

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

And we are to prove all things / test all things 1 Thessalonians 5:21 / test the spirits (even what we think is the Holy Spirit) 1 John 4:1 by the Bible:

 

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

God has first and final say.



#2
JohnDB

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!



#3
JohnDB

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Two Torahs

 

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NASB95)
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

 

Law of Moses (Torah Moshe)

 

Law of God / Christ (Torah Elohiym Moshiakh)

 

Bible!



#4
shiloh357

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

Paul is drawing a distinction between those who were merely  ethnic Israelites vs., those Jews who were true Israelites, the Jewish remant that believes on Jesus.

 

He is not talking about two Israels.



#5
JohnDB

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Two Covenants

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

Old Covenant (Old Testament Judaism / Israel)

 

New Covenant (New Covenant Judaism / Israel)

 

Bible!



#6
JohnDB

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Two Tabernacles

 

2 Samuel 7:12-13 (NASB95)
12 “When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

 

Zechariah 6:12-13 (NASB95)
12 “Then say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the Lord.
13 “Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.” ’

 

Matthew 16:18 (NASB95)
18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

 

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB95)
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

 

Bible!

 

footnote...

 

Hebrews 8:5 (NASB95)
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

 

The Bible does not say Solomon had such a pattern...



#7
JohnDB

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

Paul is drawing a distinction between those who were merely  ethnic Israelites vs., those Jews who were true Israelites, the Jewish remant that believes on Jesus.

 

He is not talking about two Israels.

 

 

I note your opinion as just that an opinion.



#8
Qnts2

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.



#9
shiloh357

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

Paul is drawing a distinction between those who were merely  ethnic Israelites vs., those Jews who were true Israelites, the Jewish remant that believes on Jesus.

 

He is not talking about two Israels.

 

 

I note your opinion as just that an opinion.

 

No, it is not an opinion.   I am simply reflecting the corrrect exegesis of the text.  You are not.



#10
Qnts2

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Two Covenants

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

Old Covenant (Old Testament Judaism / Israel)

 

New Covenant (New Covenant Judaism / Israel)

 

Bible!

 

There is actually more then two covenants mentioned in the OT. If it is your assumption that every covenant is to a different group of people called Israel, there would be at least 5 groups called Israel. But, scripture only talks about 1 Israel, the descendents of Jacob.



#11
JohnDB

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I realize this gets down to the core of what most believe.

 

But the faith has been hijacked since Emperor Constantine "legalized" Christianity... and despite these events God has been able to save a remnant over a very long period of time... but in place after place around the world and down through history the hijacked / compromised faith plays itself out into post-christian eras with resentful non-christians ruling.

 

The stage is nearly set for the last times scenario in Eretz Yisro'el.

 

Isn't is about time we believers in Yeshua Jesus started following his word?



#12
JohnDB

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.

 

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.



#13
JohnDB

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

Paul is drawing a distinction between those who were merely  ethnic Israelites vs., those Jews who were true Israelites, the Jewish remant that believes on Jesus.

 

He is not talking about two Israels.

 

 

I note your opinion as just that an opinion.

 

No, it is not an opinion.   I am simply reflecting the corrrect exegesis of the text.  You are not.

 

Then prove it.

 

Israel who is not Israel (Romans 9:6)

 

sand of the sea versus stars of the heavens (Genesis 22:17)

 

grafted in wild branches / cut off natural branches (Romans 11:16-26)

 

circumcision of the heart rather than the flesh (Romans 2:28-29 / Deuteronomy 10:16)

 

The Israel of God versus those who would circumcise the Church into physical Judaism (Galatians 6:13-16)

 

And if you are making the distinction between Jew and Gentile in the faith...

 

Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Your opinion / tradition is up against a lot of scripture.

 

Let's see if you have any scripture to back your "exegesis..."



#14
shiloh357

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.

 

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

The "Israel of God"  are Jewish believers in Jesus, not Gentile believers.



#15
JohnDB

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.

 

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

The "Israel of God"  are Jewish believers in Jesus, not Gentile believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is false?

 

Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.



#16
JohnDB

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Ephesians 2 (NASB95)

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.



#17
JohnDB

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Two Covenants

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

Old Covenant (Old Testament Judaism / Israel)

 

New Covenant (New Covenant Judaism / Israel)

 

Bible!

 

There is actually more then two covenants mentioned in the OT. If it is your assumption that every covenant is to a different group of people called Israel, there would be at least 5 groups called Israel. But, scripture only talks about 1 Israel, the descendents of Jacob.

 

 

Without a doubt. This was due to the progressive revelation of God to and and the dispensational eras of human proving / testing. Paul addressed this in Romans 2-9. All still died and no one could bring their sins to a recompense aside from the grace of God through faith in every covenant...

 

I was referring to the covenants and covenant givers Moses prophesied about in Deuteronomy 18:15.



#18
Qnts2

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Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.

 

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

The "Israel of God"  are Jewish believers in Jesus, not Gentile believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is false?

 

Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Really? Do you think there are really no males or females? Which are we all? Spiritual males or spiritual females? I say that men are now spiritual females.

  

Wait, it says that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, so none of us are Jew and none of us are Gentile.

 

What this verse is actually talking about is the way of salvation. There is no difference in the way one is saved, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, for we are all saved the same way, thru faith in Jesus alone.  



#19
JohnDB

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Deuteronomy 18:15-19 (NASB95)
15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
16 “This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’
17 “The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
19 ‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two Israels

 

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

All Israel

 

Israel

 

Bible!

 

That verse is simply saying not all of the children of Israel are saved. What it doesn't say is that Gentiles who are saved become members of Israel or a second Israel. You are assuming what isn't actually in the verse.

 

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NASB95)
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

The "Israel of God"  are Jewish believers in Jesus, not Gentile believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is false?

 

Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Really? Do you think there are really no males or females? Which are we all? Spiritual males or spiritual females? I say that men are now spiritual females.

 

 

The context was of the Body of Christ... was it not?



#20
JohnDB

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And did you read Ephesians 2:11 ff ?






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