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The Beast of Rome

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#1
hardy

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....or perhaps just mere coincidences...

The number “666” is the numerology of Hebrew letters. It serves the same function of symbolism as Roman numerals. It’s called Gematria. In this ancient Gematria, is it just coincidence that 666 so happens to equal the name of “Caesar Neron” the most despised ruler and oppressor of the Jew in the era Revelation was written? Christians with a deeper understanding of their history will remember writings of him as the ruler who used early Christians as human torches at his parties. Some earlier New Testament copies of Revelations have “616” rather than “666” and using that same Gematria the name numerically is that of “Caesar Nero” his more common used name without the value of “N” which is 50.

Here:

“In both Hebrew and Greek as well as other languages, letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. So names had a certain numerical value. "Nero Caesar" transliterated into the Hebrew from the Greek (Neron Kaiser) adds up to exactly 666 in Hebrew. N=50, R=200, W=6, N=50 plus Q=100, S=60, R=200 totals 666. This spelling of Nero Caesar was found in the discovery of an Aramaic document in Wadi Murabba`at (BASOR 170, 65). The Latin form of "Nero Caesar" when transliterated into Hebrew adds up to 616. This most likely explains the textual variant in Revelation 13:18 with the number 616. It should also be noted that the Greek word for "Beast" when transliterated back into Hebrew adds up to 666. Ancient writers referred to Nero as a "beast" (See Philostratus Vit. Apoll. 4.38; Sib. Or. 5.343; 8.157). For more detailed commentary see Word Biblical Commentary: Revelation 6-16 by David E. Aune."

HERE

Could that just be coincidence?

Is it really coincidence that Nero was commonly called a “beast” in by ancient writers of that day? In Revelations there is mention of a woman drunk with blood of the Saints sitting on the seven hills. Is it again coincidence from this era there exist coins depicting Rome as the city sitting on seven hills, in which geographically it actually does?

Check out the coin on the right as shown, Here:


coin-vespasian.gif

 

Could that just be coincidence?

It is the rulers of Rome who are (killing) drinking the blood of saints, in other words that era’s contemporary Christians, and Nero was one of its rulers. In example, Apollinius of Tyana, who lived at the time of Nero, states:

“In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs.... And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero gorged himself on this diet."

HERE

Nero point blank called a wild beast.

Could that just be coincidence?

After Nero’s death there was popular belief in a returning Nero; a belief that he had not really died. The legend was so common in that era it was known then and now historically as “Nero Redivivus.” They believed Nero would return from the East with his Parthian armies to destroy Rome and Western culture. Here is the historian Suetonius, and writing from the Sybline Oracles, and the Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-4; supporting that late 1st and early 2nd century belief:

Suetonius, Nero, 57 [early 2nd century]

“"Nero died at the age of 31, on the anniversary of Octavia's murder. In the widespread general rejoicing, citizens ran throught the streets wearing caps of liberty. But there were people who used to lay spring and summer flowers on his grave for a long time, and had statues made of him. . .; they even continued to circulate edicts pretending he was still alive and would soon return to confound his enemies. . . . In fact, twenty years later, when I was a young man, a mysterious individual came forward claiming to be Nero; and so magical was the sound of his name in the Parthians' ears that they supported him to the best of their ability, and only handed him over with great reluctance."

Sibylline Oracles 5.28 [date: between 80 and 132]

“"One who has fifty as an initial will be commander, a terrible snake, breathing out grievous war, who one day will lay hands on his own family and slay them, and throw everything into confusion, athlete, charioteer, murderer, one who dares ten thousand things. He will also cut the mountain between two seas and defile it with gore. But even when he disappears he will be destructive. Then he will return declaring himself equal to God. But he will prove that he is not.

Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-4 [date: near the end of 1st century]

“"And after it has been brought to completion, Beliar will descend, the great angel, the king of this world, which he has ruled ever since it existed. He will descend from his firmament in the form of a man, a king of iniquity, a murderer of his mother--this is the king of this world--and will persecute the plant which the twelve apostles of the Beloved will have planted; some of the twelve will be given into his hand. This angel, Beliar, will come in the form of that king, and with him will come all the powers of this world, and they will obey him in every wish. . . .

In the Nero Kingdom of Rome the only way an individual could conduct commerce was by certifying performance of a pagan sacrifice, hence demonstrating loyalty to the authorities of the Roman Empire, i.e. having to first pay homage to the King; Nero. It was called the “Libellus”. They then received this slip of paper showing the approval of the Nero Kingdom. It was Nero’s “Mark” and those trading usually held it in their hands. Remember what Nero was called again? The Beast. They carried the Mark of the Beast.

HERE:

“A libellus (plural libelli) was a document given to a Christian to certify performance of a pagan sacrifice, hence demonstrating loyalty to the authorities of the Roman Empire. They could also mean certificates of indulgence, in which the confessors or martyrs interceded for apostatate Christians.[1]

"Forty-six such certificates have been published, all dating from this same year [250 AD]."[2] This particular year falls into the period of persecution under the emperor Decius. Four libelli were found among the thousands of papyri at the archaeological site near Oxyrhynchus in Egypt (POxy 658, POxy 1464, POxy 2990 and POxy 3929).

Participating in pagan sacrifices was a sin for Christians and punished by excommunication, because the New Testament forbade Christians to either participate in "idol feasts" or to eat "meat sacrificed to idols". However, not participating made one liable to arrest by the Roman authorities. A warrant to arrest a Christian (POxy 3035) was also found at Oxyrhynchus, this too has been dated precisely—to the year 256. The grounds for this arrest are not documented, however, and it predates the persecution under the emperor Valerian I by about a year.

 

HERE

Could that just be coincidence?

...and no, I am not a pretreist.

Apocalyptic literature is a genre’ meant to redress a current dilemma, and in this case their treatment under the rule of Rome with a futuristic outcome in the form of literature to provide hope and vindication. So when it comes to Bible interpretation an analogy I like to use is studying the Vietnam War. If you choose to study just the American version of events, you will embark on a good start, but yet it’s just the tip of an iceberg. You’d have to in addition look at both North and South Vietnam history, as well as the French, Russia, Japan, heck even China to make sense of it. The same goes with the Bible. If you choose to solely read the Bible and try to make sense of it without reading all the external yet extremely interconnected material found outside the Bible which provides one a better understanding of the culture; their mindset; their paradigm, their literature, it too is just a good start.

Needless to say the Bible is indeed divine, but it wasn't written in a divine vacuum. As inspired as it is, it is a product of its environment to in many cases redress matters of that environment in that era. When they talk about the Beast, they weren’t talking to us.



#2
WillfromTexas

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So you think Nero was the AntiChrist or something?

 

Your first mistake is looking at resources outside the Bible. The Bible is your only safe literature and anything else God hasn't ordained as His Word. Outside sources are fine as long as they do not go against the Bible and definitely should NOT be taken over the Bible. The Bible should always be your ultimate authority as a Christian.

 

For example this entire diatribe you've spent time on that obviously could have been used for something better. You can make anybody into the AntiChrist if you jump through enough hoops and this is a three ring circus of bending over backwards to make things fit.

 

First you had to manipulate numbers to make Nero's name add up to another sum other than 666. The Bible said 666 and means 666.

 

The Jews hadn't been regathered as a nation at Nero's time. That alone pretty much nullifies the arguement.

 

What about the False Prophet? What about the 2 Witnesses that call down fire from Heaven? What about when the Bible says he shall decieve the ENTIRE World? Etc... etc...

 

There's more to Revelation than just 666 and the mark of the beast. One thing I can guarantee you is the AntiChrist hasn't made his appearance yet and he isn't any historical figure from the past. Thessalonians says the AntiChrist will be destroyed by the Lord himself... Nero died by trying to commit suicide and had to have assistance to accomplish the act due to fear.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 



#3
hardy

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So you think Nero was the AntiChrist or something?

 

Your first mistake is looking at resources outside the Bible. The Bible is your only safe literature and anything else God hasn't ordained as His Word. Outside sources are fine as long as they do not go against the Bible and definitely should NOT be taken over the Bible. The Bible should always be your ultimate authority as a Christian.

 

For example this entire diatribe you've spent time on that obviously could have been used for something better. You can make anybody into the AntiChrist if you jump through enough hoops and this is a three ring circus of bending over backwards to make things fit.

 

First you had to manipulate numbers to make Nero's name add up to another sum other than 666. The Bible said 666 and means 666.

 

The Jews hadn't been regathered as a nation at Nero's time. That alone pretty much nullifies the arguement.

 

What about the False Prophet? What about the 2 Witnesses that call down fire from Heaven? What about when the Bible says he shall decieve the ENTIRE World? Etc... etc...

 

There's more to Revelation than just 666 and the mark of the beast. One thing I can guarantee you is the AntiChrist hasn't made his appearance yet and he isn't any historical figure from the past. Thessalonians says the AntiChrist will be destroyed by the Lord himself... Nero died by trying to commit suicide and had to have assistance to accomplish the act due to fear.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

 

 

No, I don't think Nero is a AntiChrist. Those who are thought to be the Antichrists is clearly laid out in the letters of John.

 

With focus on the Beast in the AofJ, all I have done is laid out my case why I think, and depending which Bible, 666 of 616, but why the reference of the Beast points to Nero.

 

~be good



#4
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Are you referring to the First Beast in Revelation 13:1?

 

Rev 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

 

Rev 13:11 Commentary Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.

 

And I beheld another beast http://www.biblestud...tion-13-11.html
The same with the first, only in another form; the same for being and person, but under a different consideration; the same antichrist, but appearing in another light and view: the first beast is the pope of Rome, at the head of the ten kingdoms, of which the Roman empire consisted; this other beast is the same pope of Rome, with his clergy, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests before he is described as a temporal monarch, now as a spiritual lord;



#5
GlidingWings

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A while back we had received an E mail concerning the Letter X Roman numeral. It said sometimes X also represented the number six. I don’t know if that is true or not. But I do know the letter is “Sometimes’ but not always a bad letter.

 

Take X Rated movies for example. And what about X Mas replacing Christ. Sex is today's perversion common word on TV. That ends in the letter X. Don’t “mix’ good and bad together ends with X. There is ecstasy sometimes called X tasy a drug at clubs that makes people go wild. The movie Exorcist reminds me of the letter X one of the most Demonic possessed movie a Catholic Church trying to drive the demon out..

 

Six and Rev. 13:18 that number ends in 3 times X. Not only that the word Phobia of that number is Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia I once saw. .

 

The Skull with the X bones meaning poison. X can also mean to kill someone X them off.. But as I said only some words relates X as something bad. But other times X is just a normal letter. But you see X can have more than one meaning sometimes bad and sometimes normal.

 

So this article in the E mail said the Pope has 3 xxx inside his cap gown or something else. They say it means the Rev 13:18 number. Is this all true? I don’t know?

 

As for the Nero factor he can represent the Beast of ‘The Past” and not meaning Preterism. How is this so? Read chapter 17. The Beast 'Was’ then the Beast was not. Then the Beast was made alive alive again. So Nero and also those like Herod those brutal Roman Empire rulers that killed even Jesus on the Cross is responsible for the acts of murder and blood from not only God’s people but citizens across the land.

 

Simply to say ‘The Roman Empire Beast” for he was and then was not and then shall he be alive again... But take notice the harlot is not called the Beast. Rather the Harlot makes unity with the Beast. She Rome will be unified along with the Beast in its covenants.

So she Rome will follow along with the ten horns of the first Beast in Revelation. For she Rome is of the original Roman Empire. She is the one who killed saints, Jesus, and other people blood spilled in the street. .

 

I've read several commentaries which agrees Rome is the Harlot in Rev. chapter 17. The consensus is pretty strong.. Vatican City is known for purple, great wealth, and religious at most. . And believed she Rome is the Harlot that will be destroyed and the ships will be a far saying alas alas that great city. This will be the end of the Roman Church for good never to return again.

 

But I will have to say honestly it's hard to imagine no Rome anymore. That's when people will then say during the 1000 years. Remember Rome? Now it is gone. What then is the great city? Now it will be Jerusalem and no one should ever question that.

 

As for now Rome pretends to be just as important as Jerusalem is.. The Pope pretends to be the next thing next to God. He called ‘your Holiness' and the Priest 'Father’. But we know that is wrong because the Bible say do not call one “Father” or call them “Rabbi”. For you have one Father who is God.

 

So during the 1000 years Jesus is not going to let people turn to Rome that will be gone before Jesus returns..It will most likely take place during that 3 ½ years of tribulation. Therefore we must look upward to our salvation. He that is Holy has a throne in the Third Heaven. His Kingdom is Everlasting.






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