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OEC Question


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9 replies to this topic

#1
shiloh357

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I am curious about something we haven't talked about.   In OEC, the days of creation are seen as long epoch periods of time.  So if the sixth day is also a period of millions of years or so, how far back in the OEC view were Adam and Eve created?   If it were possible to find the actual remains of Adam and Eve, how long ago would they have lived according to the OEC model?



#2
nebula

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Me personally, I don't claim to be of a particular model, so I can't speak for "what OEC says."

 

But, how I read the text is thus.

 

Gen. 1

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, . . . . 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. . . . 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

Gen. 2:4 - This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

 

 

In chapter 1, both male and female are created on day 6.

 

In Genesis 2, we see the man created, he gets lonely, he names the animals, he's still lonely, then God puts him to sleep to pull a rib out of him to create the woman.

 

Do the YEC'ers have no problem whatsoever believing and conceiving that all of these events in Chapter 2 took place within a 24-hour period of time? Well, God bless you, but I cannot in honesty make myself believe it could for no other reason than day 6 having to have taken place in 24 hours.

 

The newly created Adam would have been like a baby, full of wonder and exploration at his life, his surroundings, his relationship with God, everything! That kind of wonder wouldn't subside to loneliness in such a quick time. Then giving names to the animals would have been no small task. Unless the animals ran before him like an assembly line and he rattled off a name in a second, it would be quite difficult to complete this in less than 24 hours.

 

So, this gives a reason for why I'm less inclined to lean towards the YEC model of creation.

 

 

Plus, going back to 2:4 - it states that heaven and earth were created in one day. This seems to contradict the heavens and earth being created in 6 days, unless there's a good excuse for [i]yom[/o] not meaning 24 hours in this case?

 

 

So, to answer the age of Adam and Eve - I would be reluctant to put a date on them, by our dating methods and standards.



#3
shiloh357

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Well, the claim scientists make is that homo sapiens first appeared about 200,000 years ago, give or take.  They claim that our hominid ancestors go back some 3 to 5 million years ago.

 

The newly created Adam would have been like a baby, full of wonder and exploration at his life, his surroundings, his relationship with God, everything! That kind of wonder wouldn't subside to loneliness in such a quick time.

 

But the Bible doesn't really claim that Adam felt "lonely" does it?

 


Then giving names to the animals would have been no small task. Unless the animals ran before him like an assembly line and he rattled off a name in a second, it would be quite difficult to complete this in less than 24 hours.

 

God created the animals by kind, not by species.  The concept of kind is more like different families of animals.   If Adam named them by kind, it would have only taken a few minutes.   The variety of species within each kind would most likely be nothing like they are today.  

 


Plus, going back to 2:4 - it states that heaven and earth were created in one day. This seems to contradict the heavens and earth being created in 6 days, unless there's a good excuse for [i]yom[/o] not meaning 24 hours in this case?

 

Well what you have in Genesis 1 and 2 is an historical narrative and when the word yom is accompanied by ordinal numbers in historical narratives every other place in Scripture, it is always understood to be a literal 24 hour day.

 

In Gen. 2:4 you dont have that kind of usage.   The word "day" is used in a different sense to refer to a general time period.   It is similar to the way the OT uses "yom" to refer to the "Day of the Lord"  when speaking of  the millennial reign of Christ. 

 

 

So I guess my question centers around whether or not OEC proponents believe that Adam and Eve fit into the 150,000 to 200,000 time period for homo sapiens.  Or would they have been created even earlier.

 

I am assuming, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, that OEC proponents do not believe that Adam and Eve are 6,000 years old.



#4
nebula

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Well, the claim scientists make is that homo sapiens first appeared about 200,000 years ago, give or take.  They claim that our hominid ancestors go back some 3 to 5 million years ago.

 

The newly created Adam would have been like a baby, full of wonder and exploration at his life, his surroundings, his relationship with God, everything! That kind of wonder wouldn't subside to loneliness in such a quick time.

 

But the Bible doesn't really claim that Adam felt "lonely" does it?

 


Then giving names to the animals would have been no small task. Unless the animals ran before him like an assembly line and he rattled off a name in a second, it would be quite difficult to complete this in less than 24 hours.

 

God created the animals by kind, not by species.  The concept of kind is more like different families of animals.   If Adam named them by kind, it would have only taken a few minutes.   The variety of species within each kind would most likely be nothing like they are today.  

 


Plus, going back to 2:4 - it states that heaven and earth were created in one day. This seems to contradict the heavens and earth being created in 6 days, unless there's a good excuse for [i]yom[/o] not meaning 24 hours in this case?

 

Well what you have in Genesis 1 and 2 is an historical narrative and when the word yom is accompanied by ordinal numbers in historical narratives every other place in Scripture, it is always understood to be a literal 24 hour day.

 

In Gen. 2:4 you dont have that kind of usage.   The word "day" is used in a different sense to refer to a general time period.   It is similar to the way the OT uses "yom" to refer to the "Day of the Lord"  when speaking of  the millennial reign of Christ. 

 

 

So I guess my question centers around whether or not OEC proponents believe that Adam and Eve fit into the 150,000 to 200,000 time period for homo sapiens.  Or would they have been created even earlier.

 

I am assuming, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, that OEC proponents do not believe that Adam and Eve are 6,000 years old.

 

You're right, the "lonely" is common misnomer. But still, even with the description you gave, 24 hours is still hard to conceivably envision all of that to have taken place unless you are determined to beleive that "just because.."

 

As far as Homo sapiens, I personally feel reluctant to try to put the pieces together between fossil finds and what is written in Scripture. There are simply too many unknown variables.



#5
shiloh357

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Well, the claim scientists make is that homo sapiens first appeared about 200,000 years ago, give or take.  They claim that our hominid ancestors go back some 3 to 5 million years ago.

 

The newly created Adam would have been like a baby, full of wonder and exploration at his life, his surroundings, his relationship with God, everything! That kind of wonder wouldn't subside to loneliness in such a quick time.

 

But the Bible doesn't really claim that Adam felt "lonely" does it?

 


Then giving names to the animals would have been no small task. Unless the animals ran before him like an assembly line and he rattled off a name in a second, it would be quite difficult to complete this in less than 24 hours.

 

God created the animals by kind, not by species.  The concept of kind is more like different families of animals.   If Adam named them by kind, it would have only taken a few minutes.   The variety of species within each kind would most likely be nothing like they are today.  

 


Plus, going back to 2:4 - it states that heaven and earth were created in one day. This seems to contradict the heavens and earth being created in 6 days, unless there's a good excuse for [i]yom[/o] not meaning 24 hours in this case?

 

Well what you have in Genesis 1 and 2 is an historical narrative and when the word yom is accompanied by ordinal numbers in historical narratives every other place in Scripture, it is always understood to be a literal 24 hour day.

 

In Gen. 2:4 you dont have that kind of usage.   The word "day" is used in a different sense to refer to a general time period.   It is similar to the way the OT uses "yom" to refer to the "Day of the Lord"  when speaking of  the millennial reign of Christ. 

 

 

So I guess my question centers around whether or not OEC proponents believe that Adam and Eve fit into the 150,000 to 200,000 time period for homo sapiens.  Or would they have been created even earlier.

 

I am assuming, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, that OEC proponents do not believe that Adam and Eve are 6,000 years old.

 

You're right, the "lonely" is common misnomer. But still, even with the description you gave, 24 hours is still hard to conceivably envision all of that to have taken place unless you are determined to beleive that "just because.."

What all had to take place? 

 

As far as Homo sapiens, I personally feel reluctant to try to put the pieces together between fossil finds and what is written in Scripture. There are simply too many unknown variables.

 

Which variables are unknowns?



#6
LookingForAnswers

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what all had to take place...

 

First, God had to plant a garden and all sorts of trees had to grow and look pretty and offer food.

 

And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Then God put man into the garden to tend to it.

 

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

 

Then God gave him instructions

 

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

 

Then God decided Adam should not be alone, which would indicate that Adam was lonely, or else why would it not be good?

 

18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 

Then God brought all the cattle, all the animals of the field and all the birds to spend time with Adam and for him to name them and find a help mate.  He found none that were the correct match.

 

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 

Then God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep and took a rib from him.

 

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

 

Then God formed Eve

 

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 

Then Adam and Eve met for the first time...

 

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.



#7
nebula

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What all had to take place?


Right, what LFA explained.

 

Which variables are unknowns?

 

The Bible leaves out a lot of details that would be needed for such a comparison to be pieced together for one.

 

For another, the fossil record is too sparse and scattered to make such a comparison.



#8
shiloh357

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What all had to take place?


Right, what LFA explained.

So man would not be 6,000 years old.  If it would have been  a long epoch of time, then mankind would indeed be older than six thousand years.   Scientists claim that man as we know him after he evolved from the hominids into homo sapiens is about 200,000 years ago. 

 

Is it more reasonable to assume that God created Adam and Eve earlier like about the above, 200,000 years ago even if we reject the evolution claim?  I would love for other OEC proponents to weigh in on this question.   How old is humanity?



#9
LookingForAnswers

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I do not know how old human kind is.  It is a question that I do not have a great answer for, but I am ok with that.  Just as you have stated that you are ok with not having answers for certain things, I am the same way.   I believe that Adam and Eve were historical and were the founders of the human race.

 

Dr Jack Collins put it very well...

 

(1) To begin with, we should see that the origin of the human race goes beyond a merely natural process. This follows from how hard it is to get a human being or, more theologically, how distinctive the image of God is.

(2) We should see Adam and Eve at the headwaters of the human race. This follows from the unified experience of mankind: Where else could all human beings come to bear God’s image?

(3) The “Fall” was both historical (it happened) and moral (it involved disobeying God), and occurred at the beginning of the human race. Our universal sense of loss makes no sense without this. Where else could this universality have come from?



#10
nebula

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So man would not be 6,000 years old.  If it would have been  a long epoch of time, then mankind would indeed be older than six thousand years.   Scientists claim that man as we know him after he evolved from the hominids into homo sapiens is about 200,000 years ago. 
 
Is it more reasonable to assume that God created Adam and Eve earlier like about the above, 200,000 years ago even if we reject the evolution claim?  I would love for other OEC proponents to weigh in on this question.   How old is humanity?


Best I can tell with the fossil and genetic records, it seems there's been changes in Homo sapiens since 200,000 years ago. It is interesting to note that, if you know where to look for this info., scientists consider us to be 'modern' Homo sapiens - distinct from the ones before, and that shift does fit within the 6-10,000 year time frame.

 

So go figure!






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