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IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots...

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#1
JohnDB

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...is to divorce ourselves from the traditions of men, personal prejudice, and arrogant pride... and realize the Bible (God's Word) from Genesis to Revelation is about God's HEBREW PLAN to save humanity (thems that believe). 

 

I understand that we cannot say "this is the way it is" so I qualify this thread as "IMHO" to offer it for the consideration of all. Only I insist no one take my word for it. Test all things by the scriptures. I also hope no one will simply dismiss this without digging into scripture to satisfy their beliefs based on... anything else but the scriptures.

 

Being a believer for over 47 years... it finally dawned on me that the truth (not because I believe it but because scripture proves it) / all truth has a very tough time down here on earth getting accepted. People by nature question everything, but unfortunately (apparently) most do not test everything by scripture but rather by how they feel, what they want, what others have said and  they bought into, etc.

 

I get that.

 

I am not here to convert those who want no part of this. To them I say, "lots of luck to you!" Please do not waste your time using non-scriptural arguments and allow those who want to at least consider these things to give it a chance or to find the scriptures that disprove this discussion (and it is a discussion not a teaching or a billboard for what JohnDB thinks is true). 

 

I am truly truly subject to biblical proof / disproof of all things (recognizing the scripture as the measuring rod for truth). And I have and will change my POV to the tune of biblical proof.

 

For example:

 

I once thought the patriarch Joseph was sold off by his brothers before his brother Benjamin was born and that he knew nothing of his full blood brother's existence until one of his half brothers spilled the beans in Pharaoh's court (before Joseph revealed himself to them). It seemed to follow scripture and made an interesting angle to tell the story from... but tracking his history down in scripture when the family camped near Shechem there was something that disproved the whole thing. I do not now recall what that was... LOL I am getting old and my supposition was proved false so it really does not matter now... LOL. So I defer to scripture and bow the knee to the living Word Jesus Christ.

 

IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots... is the point I was driving at with the discussion topics of Jesus is still King of the Jews and the Jewishness of the faith and God's Hebrew never ended.

 

As a Trekker / Trekee / geek... I am reminded of Q's statement to Jean Luc in the last ST TNG episode... "the trial never ends..."

 

God's Hebrew Plan Never Ends...

 

Romans 11:16-26 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

 



#2
MelanieJoyelle

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Hi John!  I am new to the Worthy Forums and was reading through several threads when I came on this one.  I am curious what you consider  "Hebrew Roots" to be as part of the Gospel. I have read your posts a few times and am not grasping where you are coming from. Can you please clarify? Thanx!



#3
Spock

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Hi john,

Spock thinking out loud-

It has recently occurred to me Jesus may never have intended to start a new religion-Christianity.

But I can't reconcile it all. I know God was angry at the Jewish leaders for their rejection of Christ, but does that mean this is why a new religion or two sprung up?

Let me get this straight:

1. God ordains Saturday as the day of rest
2. Constantine and ecumenical council change it to Sunday
3. When Jesus returns, it will go back to Saturday.

So why do most believers have it on Sunday?

Hmmmmm

Many questions, few answers for me.

#4
Qnts2

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Hi john,

Spock thinking out loud-

It has recently occurred to me Jesus may never have intended to start a new religion-Christianity.

But I can't reconcile it all. I know God was angry at the Jewish leaders for their rejection of Christ, but does that mean this is why a new religion or two sprung up?

Let me get this straight:

1. God ordains Saturday as the day of rest
2. Constantine and ecumenical council change it to Sunday
3. When Jesus returns, it will go back to Saturday.

So why do most believers have it on Sunday?

Hmmmmm

Many questions, few answers for me.

 

God did ordain the 7th day as the day of rest. I say the 7th day because Saturday does not exactly coincide since biblical days start at sunset so the 7th day starts at sunset on Friday.

 

As far as Constantine and the first council of Nicea, Constantine wanted to separate from Judaism, so set things up so that belief in Jesus and the holy days did not coincide with the holy days of Judaism. This especially effected the timing of Passover vs. the timing of Easter. However, historically, believers in Jesus were already gathering on the 1st day, Sunday, so the day of gathering for Christians had not really changed. 

 

The Sabbath, as you said, according to the Mosaic law, is a day of rest. One mistake of many who support a Sabbath worship service, is that scripture never ever commanded a 7th day worship service, but did command a 7th day rest. Going back to the OT, the children of Israel were alloted land based on tribe. The Temple, the formal place for sacrifice and worship, was simply too far away for most of the people to travel for Sabbath worship services. Since the command was to rest, most would have stayed home.

 

The addition of synagogues with Rabbis is not in scripture, and happened during the Babylonian exhile. So, to here the scriptures being read, during Jesus time, people went to the synagogue. Jesus went to the synagogue, not because of any command, but to preach to the people. The disciples also went to synagogues, not because of any command but to share the gospel, and often, Christians would gather the day after the Sabbath, 'Sunday', to have a more private meeting, discussing more Christian topics.

 

Since services on the Sabbath, are not a command, there is no need to have services on the Sabbath. Judaism today, has worship/prayer services 7 days a week. In reality, most synagogues are open and having services more often then Christian churches. Since services are not and have never been tied to the Sabbath, and worship occured 7 days a week in the Temple, and 7 days a week in synagogues, to limit services to one or two days a week, is not biblical. But, having services on any day of the week is not against bible. In otherwords, having services on Sunday, Wednesday, or Thursday, does not violate any command but is fine.

 

The question then is not about services, which many including Constantine confused as having to do with the Sabbath. It is about a day of rest. No where in the NT are New Covenant believers commanded to rest on the Sabbath, or on any other day. New Covenant believers are told to rest in the Messiah. Those who received the Mosaic covenant are commanded to rest on the 7th day, but those who received the New Covenant are not commanded to rest an a specific day of the week. So, Jesus did intend to bring in a New Covenant, which is not the same as the Mosaic covenant. Given that the covenants are different, the practice, or obedience to the differing covenants is different. Had the nation/people of Israel accepted the New Covenant, Judaism would include Jesus, but since Israel as a nation, rejected Jesus, there are two differing religions.      



#5
Spock

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Thanks Q,

I am reading and pondering your words.

#6
Spock

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q or anyone else interested,

Okay, I've pondered a bit more what you wrote, and I get the impression you think the Ten Commandments are a Jewish thing, and not really a church thing.

Is this accurate? What, if any, significance are the Ten Commandments?

Secondly, do you think Jesus intended to start a new religion distinct from Judaism?

Lastly, Up until Constantine and the council of Nicaea, the "gentile believers" were basically a Jewish sect and did everything the Jewish believers did, including worship and day of rest on Saturday. (Acts 15 gave them some leeway on many matters though.) I seriously doubt this was changed before Constantine. How do you see how that 300 year period was played out? I believe Constantine and the church council changed things because of their anti-semitism.

And of course, the day of rest began way before Moses gave it. See Genesis 2:

2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

It seems to me the 7th day has always and will always be the special day of God for mankind to rest, just as he did.

Yes or no?

#7
other one

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.



#8
Spock

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.


I'm all ears. What does all that mean to you?

#9
other one

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i say no......   not the way you are implying.


I'm all ears. What does all that mean to you?

 

While the seventh day was/is/will be special to the Lord, the seventh day rest was given to the Nation of Israel.   It is not something we "do" today, it is a complete way of life......  every day 24/7.

 

Jesus admitted that he was working on the Sabbath.....   not only that but the Father had been working also.

 

Gods sabbath rest isn't setting around doing nothing one day a week, it is living a holy lifestyle....   it is accepting the "rest" he gives us through grace in salvation...

 

Unless you want to put us back under the law......    if you want to go back to the ten commandments as law, then you have to start killing people who do almost anything on Friday night to Saturday night...

 

Besides that, no one has changed the Sabbath.....   it's still Friday night to Saturday night...     we go to church on Sunday to worship and celebrate the risen Christ.    There is not any command to hold church services on the Sabbath that I have seen.

 

If it was still critical to not work at all on the Sabbath as was given to Israel, then why was Jesus working?



#10
Willamina

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My impression was that the rest in Christ was ceasing from our own works and relying on the completed work of Christ on the Cross. It is to stop stiving to be "good enough" or to please God, but to rest in that God is pleased with the work of Christ, which was bestowed on us, so He is already pleased with all who are in Him. Does that make sense? We now rest from our striving and walk in the Spirit. His burden is light. He has written the law on our hearts. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so it is still necessary to bring others to Christ.
Willa

#11
Qnts2

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q or anyone else interested,

Okay, I've pondered a bit more what you wrote, and I get the impression you think the Ten Commandments are a Jewish thing, and not really a church thing.

Is this accurate? What, if any, significance are the Ten Commandments?

Secondly, do you think Jesus intended to start a new religion distinct from Judaism?

Lastly, Up until Constantine and the council of Nicaea, the "gentile believers" were basically a Jewish sect and did everything the Jewish believers did, including worship and day of rest on Saturday. (Acts 15 gave them some leeway on many matters though.) I seriously doubt this was changed before Constantine. How do you see how that 300 year period was played out? I believe Constantine and the church council changed things because of their anti-semitism.

And of course, the day of rest began way before Moses gave it. See Genesis 2:

2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

It seems to me the 7th day has always and will always be the special day of God for mankind to rest, just as he did.

Yes or no?

 

The so called 10 commandments are a part of the Mosaic covenant and law, given to the children of Israel. There are actually about 613 laws which includes the 10. (I say about as that is a Rabbinical number. The Rabbis counted the number of laws, but I don't always agree with their divisions). Some commands which are in the Mosaic covenant are also in other covenants.  

 

Constantine and the council of Nicea, did not separate Christianity from Judaism. The split was earlier. The complete split, in my view, occurred in around 132 ce, at the end of the Bar Kockba revolution. The council of Nicea removed any common celebrations between Judaism and Christianity, forbidding Christians from doing certain practices practiced by the Jewish people, but Christianity and Judaism had already separated into different groups.     

 

In Genesis 2:2, God is separating the Sabbath as the day when creation was complete and God rested. There is no command for people to rest on the Sabbath at that time.

 

The first time God commanded men to rest on the Sabbath is in Exodus, when the children of Israel had left Egypt and were travelling in the desert.

 

Exodus 31:13  “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

 

In Ex. 31:13, speaking directly to the sons of Israel, God says that observance of the Sabbaths is a sign between God and Israel throughout the generations of Israel. It is to show that God has separated Israel from the other nations.



#12
Spock

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Good rebuttals, thanks.

I'm not sure I agree with all the conclusions you draw from them, but they make "some" sense I suppose.

I guess the issue with me is how Christianity formed APART from Judaism.I'm not convinced this was necessary or intended. I don't see anywhere that shows me the New Testament writers sanctioned this, so if you could show me scripture that encourages "Christians" to split from their Jewish roots, Ignore the Biblical Feasts, ignore the Ten Commandments, and start your own religion, I'm all ears.

I guess you don't believe Christians are grafted into Israel when they become believers pursuant to Romans 9-11.

I'm not convinced believers were separated at 130 ad rather than through Constantine in 330 ad. Again, I still think all of that happened, no matter when it happened, because of ANTI- SEMITISM. This is not a good reason to me to separate and forget "Jewish" things.

To each their own. I respect your right to follow your conscience on these matters and you act according to these beliefs.

As for me, the sabbath day of rest is Saturday, not Sunday, and the biblical feasts will be honored.

Oh, and don't forget, the Sabbath day of rest and the feasts will still be celebrated and honored when Christ returns during the millennial kingdom. Hmmmmm. Sounds like these haven't gone away even after Christ returns. Still think this is only Jewish? Notice the passage below, all the NATIONS better be honoring these Feast Days or else no rain. Still think these (feasts and sabbath day) can be ignored TODAY because it's only a Jewish thing? Maybe you are right, but my conscience and the totality of scripture are telling me otherwise.

Zechariah 14:
16 Then all who survive from all the nations that came to attack Jerusalem will go up annually to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, and to observe the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 But if any of the nations anywhere on earth refuse to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, they will get no rain.
18 If the Egyptians will not do so, they will get no rain - instead there will be the kind of plague which the LORD inflicts on any nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that day the bells of the horses will bear the inscription "HOLY TO THE LORD." The cooking pots in the LORD's temple will be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will become holy in the sight of the LORD who rules over all, so that all who offer sacrifices may come and use some of them to boil their sacrifices in them. On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD who rules over all.

Thanks for sharing.
Spock out

#13
ajchurney

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Good rebuttals, thanks.

I'm not sure I agree with all the conclusions you draw from them, but they make "some" sense I suppose.

I guess the issue with me is how Christianity formed APART from Judaism.I'm not convinced this was necessary or intended. I don't see anywhere that shows me the New Testament writers sanctioned this, so if you could show me scripture that encourages "Christians" to split from their Jewish roots, Ignore the Biblical Feasts, ignore the Ten Commandments, and start your own religion, I'm all ears.

I guess you don't believe Christians are grafted into Israel when they become believers pursuant to Romans 9-11.

I'm not convinced believers were separated at 130 ad rather than through Constantine in 330 ad. Again, I still think all of that happened, no matter when it happened, because of ANTI- SEMITISM. This is not a good reason to me to separate and forget "Jewish" things.

To each their own. I respect your right to follow your conscience on these matters and you act according to these beliefs.

As for me, the sabbath day of rest is Saturday, not Sunday, and the biblical feasts will be honored.

Oh, and don't forget, the Sabbath day of rest and the feasts will still be celebrated and honored when Christ returns during the millennial kingdom. Hmmmmm. Sounds like these haven't gone away even after Christ returns. Still think this is only Jewish? Notice the passage below, all the NATIONS better be honoring these Feast Days or else no rain. Still think these (feasts and sabbath day) can be ignored TODAY because it's only a Jewish thing? Maybe you are right, but my conscience and the totality of scripture are telling me otherwise.

Zechariah 14:
16 Then all who survive from all the nations that came to attack Jerusalem will go up annually to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, and to observe the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 But if any of the nations anywhere on earth refuse to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, they will get no rain.
18 If the Egyptians will not do so, they will get no rain - instead there will be the kind of plague which the LORD inflicts on any nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that day the bells of the horses will bear the inscription "HOLY TO THE LORD." The cooking pots in the LORD's temple will be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will become holy in the sight of the LORD who rules over all, so that all who offer sacrifices may come and use some of them to boil their sacrifices in them. On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD who rules over all.

Thanks for sharing.
Spock out

Spock, how do you celebrate the feast of tabernacles. What do you specifically do to honor that feast?



#14
ajchurney

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As far as a split between the Jewish synagogue system (there is no Temple system since 70 A.D., which is an interesting subject in itself as relates to truly following the ceremonial laws at all!) and the Christian church, this has everything to do with the rejection of the Jewish Messiah. This is no small thing! Concerning the rejection of Jesus as the Christ, Paul said that, in so doing, the Jews considered themselves "unworthy of everlasting life" (Acts 13:46). Jesus is the fulfillment of all the Law and Prophets in HIMSELF! Now, this does not define a complete rejection of Isreal as a people, as Paul explains in Rom 9-11. We who are Gentiles are "grafted in" to true Israel in God's eyes. Make no mistake, however, that to reject the only Christ is to also reject the Father, as Jesus came to perfectly represent the Father, and perfectly walked in the Spirit and power of the Almighty by the Holy Spirit, such that the Jews are entirely without excuse, and in fact more culpable for their rejection of Him because to them the oracles of the Holy scriptures were given and it is to Jesus that their entirety witnesses! It is rightly determined that it is this rejection of Jesus as Christ that separates Christian and Jew. We hold in common a reverence for the Tenach, but even here, most religious Jews revere the Mishnah and Talmud as the interpreters and explainers of Tenach, of which much is tradition that does not necessarily agree with certain of the apostolic Father's interpretations, particularly as it relates to Messiah (no surprise there!)

Anyhow, Jesus bridges the gap between Jew and Gentile, and yet he paradoxically is also the cause of the divide as it relates to those who believe in Him as the true fulfillment and culmination of all that is actually Jewish and those who reject Him. As far as Feasts and Sabbaths, Paul seems to address this in Col 2:16-17, a letter to a primarily Gentile church being affected similarly to the Galatians by Judaisers, and other influences as well. Absolutely everything in the OT is there for our learning and speaks of the character and person of God. I believe Paul wrote repeatedly on the subject of Old and New Covenants and what God requires and does not require of Gentile converts and the doctrinal "why's" behind these statements. If one desires to honor, study, and observe Jewish customs, I believe the only danger is in replacing devotion to Christ with these things, or giving observance of ceremony place above the spiritual reality of which the custom represents. IMHO, more Christians are woefully, even willfully ignorant of Jewish roots, than those who go too far in honoring the same, though there are those around also.

Blessings in Yeshua, Andy


Edited by ajchurney, 08 March 2014 - 03:17 PM.


#15
Spock

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Good rebuttals, thanks.
I'm not sure I agree with all the conclusions you draw from them, but they make "some" sense I suppose.
I guess the issue with me is how Christianity formed APART from Judaism.I'm not convinced this was necessary or intended. I don't see anywhere that shows me the New Testament writers sanctioned this, so if you could show me scripture that encourages "Christians" to split from their Jewish roots, Ignore the Biblical Feasts, ignore the Ten Commandments, and start your own religion, I'm all ears.
I guess you don't believe Christians are grafted into Israel when they become believers pursuant to Romans 9-11.
I'm not convinced believers were separated at 130 ad rather than through Constantine in 330 ad. Again, I still think all of that happened, no matter when it happened, because of ANTI- SEMITISM. This is not a good reason to me to separate and forget "Jewish" things.
To each their own. I respect your right to follow your conscience on these matters and you act according to these beliefs.
As for me, the sabbath day of rest is Saturday, not Sunday, and the biblical feasts will be honored.
Oh, and don't forget, the Sabbath day of rest and the feasts will still be celebrated and honored when Christ returns during the millennial kingdom. Hmmmmm. Sounds like these haven't gone away even after Christ returns. Still think this is only Jewish? Notice the passage below, all the NATIONS better be honoring these Feast Days or else no rain. Still think these (feasts and sabbath day) can be ignored TODAY because it's only a Jewish thing? Maybe you are right, but my conscience and the totality of scripture are telling me otherwise.
Zechariah 14:
16 Then all who survive from all the nations that came to attack Jerusalem will go up annually to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, and to observe the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 But if any of the nations anywhere on earth refuse to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, they will get no rain.
18 If the Egyptians will not do so, they will get no rain - instead there will be the kind of plague which the LORD inflicts on any nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that day the bells of the horses will bear the inscription "HOLY TO THE LORD." The cooking pots in the LORD's temple will be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will become holy in the sight of the LORD who rules over all, so that all who offer sacrifices may come and use some of them to boil their sacrifices in them. On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD who rules over all.
Thanks for sharing.
Spock out

Spock, how do you celebrate the feast of tabernacles. What do you specifically do to honor that feast?
I try to apply the spirit of this passage with what I can that is reasonable for me, not living in Israel, day 8 is the holy assembly. I fellowship at a messianic synagogue and they build a succha (sp?) for the entire eight days for people to visit and reflect upon.

In addition, we celebrate the birth of Jesus on that day. We believe Christ was born on the feast of tabernacles. My wife and I privately bake a cake and sing happy birthday to Jesus on that day, FYI.

35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work.
36 For seven days you must present a gift to the LORD. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly day; you must not do any regular work.
37 "'These are the appointed times of the LORD that you must proclaim as holy assemblies to present a gift to the LORD - burnt offering, grain offering, sacrifice, and drink offerings, each day according to its regulation,
38 besides the Sabbaths of the LORD and all your gifts, votive offerings, and freewill offerings which you must give to the LORD.
39 "'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you gather in the produce of the land, you must celebrate a pilgrim festival of the LORD for seven days. On the first day is a complete rest and on the eighth day is complete rest.
40 On the first day you must take for yourselves branches from majestic trees - palm branches, branches of leafy trees, and willows of the brook - and you must rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days.
41 You must celebrate it as a pilgrim festival to the LORD for seven days in the year. This is a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you must celebrate it in the seventh month.
42 You must live in temporary shelters for seven days; every native citizen in Israel must live in temporary shelters,
43 so that your future generations may know that I made the Israelites live in temporary shelters when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'"

#16
treetopflyer

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...is to divorce ourselves from the traditions of men, personal prejudice, and arrogant pride... and realize the Bible (God's Word) from Genesis to Revelation is about God's HEBREW PLAN to save humanity (thems that believe). 

 

I understand that we cannot say "this is the way it is" so I qualify this thread as "IMHO" to offer it for the consideration of all. Only I insist no one take my word for it. Test all things by the scriptures. I also hope no one will simply dismiss this without digging into scripture to satisfy their beliefs based on... anything else but the scriptures.

 

Being a believer for over 47 years... it finally dawned on me that the truth (not because I believe it but because scripture proves it) / all truth has a very tough time down here on earth getting accepted. People by nature question everything, but unfortunately (apparently) most do not test everything by scripture but rather by how they feel, what they want, what others have said and  they bought into, etc.

 

I get that.

 

I am not here to convert those who want no part of this. To them I say, "lots of luck to you!" Please do not waste your time using non-scriptural arguments and allow those who want to at least consider these things to give it a chance or to find the scriptures that disprove this discussion (and it is a discussion not a teaching or a billboard for what JohnDB thinks is true). 

 

I am truly truly subject to biblical proof / disproof of all things (recognizing the scripture as the measuring rod for truth). And I have and will change my POV to the tune of biblical proof.

 

For example:

 

I once thought the patriarch Joseph was sold off by his brothers before his brother Benjamin was born and that he knew nothing of his full blood brother's existence until one of his half brothers spilled the beans in Pharaoh's court (before Joseph revealed himself to them). It seemed to follow scripture and made an interesting angle to tell the story from... but tracking his history down in scripture when the family camped near Shechem there was something that disproved the whole thing. I do not now recall what that was... LOL I am getting old and my supposition was proved false so it really does not matter now... LOL. So I defer to scripture and bow the knee to the living Word Jesus Christ.

 

IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots... is the point I was driving at with the discussion topics of Jesus is still King of the Jews and the Jewishness of the faith and God's Hebrew never ended.

 

As a Trekker / Trekee / geek... I am reminded of Q's statement to Jean Luc in the last ST TNG episode... "the trial never ends..."

 

God's Hebrew Plan Never Ends...

 

Romans 11:16-26 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

In consideration of all you wrote, I'm wondering what do you make of this passage of Scripture from the letter to the Ephesians:

 

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. - Ephesians 2:11 - 22

 

and...

 

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. -  Galations 3:26-29

 

Just interested in your thoughts of these Scriptures.

 

God bless you,

Randal

 



#17
Spock

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To aj and anyone else,

Please know, it is not my intention to guilt you to do as I do. If you do not feel led to make your day of rest on Saturday and do not feel led to celebrate the feasts pursuant to Leviticus 23, fine by me.

My conscience tells me to follow them. I can only tell you why I do, which obviously you can either reject or accept. It's your call, and either way you go it does not affect me one bit.

We all have to figure things out and we all have a personal walk with God. I am not your judge just as you aren't mine.

I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ unconditionally just as I believe He does.

To God be the glory,
Spock

#18
ajchurney

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To aj and anyone else,

Please know, it is not my intention to guilt you to do as I do. If you do not feel led to make your day of rest on Saturday and do not feel led to celebrate the feasts pursuant to Leviticus 23, fine by me.

My conscience tells me to follow them. I can only tell you why I do, which obviously you can either reject or accept. It's your call, and either way you go it does not affect me one bit.

We all have to figure things out and we all have a personal walk with God. I am not your judge just as you aren't mine.

I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ unconditionally just as I believe He does.

To God be the glory,
Spock

I love the heart of your response, brother. We are all hopefully seeking truth and listening to Holy Spirit on how HE wants us to follow Christ.



#19
nebula

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I guess the issue with me is how Christianity formed APART from Judaism.I'm not convinced this was necessary or intended. I don't see anywhere that shows me the New Testament writers sanctioned this, so if you could show me scripture that encourages "Christians" to split from their Jewish roots, Ignore the Biblical Feasts, ignore the Ten Commandments, and start your own religion, I'm all ears.

I guess you don't believe Christians are grafted into Israel when they become believers pursuant to Romans 9-11.

I'm not convinced believers were separated at 130 ad rather than through Constantine in 330 ad. Again, I still think all of that happened, no matter when it happened, because of ANTI- SEMITISM. This is not a good reason to me to separate and forget "Jewish" things.

To each their own. I respect your right to follow your conscience on these matters and you act according to these beliefs.

As for me, the sabbath day of rest is Saturday, not Sunday, and the biblical feasts will be honored.

Oh, and don't forget, the Sabbath day of rest and the feasts will still be celebrated and honored when Christ returns during the millennial kingdom. Hmmmmm. Sounds like these haven't gone away even after Christ returns. Still think this is only Jewish? Notice the passage below, all the NATIONS better be honoring these Feast Days or else no rain. Still think these (feasts and sabbath day) can be ignored TODAY because it's only a Jewish thing? Maybe you are right, but my conscience and the totality of scripture are telling me otherwise.

Zechariah 14:
16 Then all who survive from all the nations that came to attack Jerusalem will go up annually to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, and to observe the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 But if any of the nations anywhere on earth refuse to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD who rules over all, they will get no rain.
18 If the Egyptians will not do so, they will get no rain - instead there will be the kind of plague which the LORD inflicts on any nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that day the bells of the horses will bear the inscription "HOLY TO THE LORD." The cooking pots in the LORD's temple will be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will become holy in the sight of the LORD who rules over all, so that all who offer sacrifices may come and use some of them to boil their sacrifices in them. On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD who rules over all.

 

Hi Spock -

 

This is how I understand things -

 

Jesus established a new covenant, not a new religion. The original disciples/believers were Jews and remained Jews until the day they died. While they acknowledged the life of the new covenant, there is no indication they ever ceased living and worshiping as Jews.

 

The conflict began when Gentiles were added to the faith - did they have to convert to the Law and circumcision in order to be saved? The Apostles concluded that they did not need to. However they never commanded the Jews to quit following their faith and culture, only not to pressure the Gentiles into doing living under the Law.

 

The separation, though, began when the Roman government started persecuting the Jews. The Gentile believers were under the gun already for not worshiping the Emperor; understandably, they did not want any further trouble inflicted on them on account of Rome's war against the Jews. Thus, many Gentile believers distanced themselves from any practices that they participated in with the Jews so that they would make themselves less of a target.

 

After the Temple was destroyed, the leadership of the "Church" transitioned from Jerusalem to Ephesus, I believe it was. For whatever reason, the the reigns of leadership and oversight of the Body was passed on to Gentile believers. Likewise, less Jewish converts were being added, and more Gentile converts were.

 

Now, while the original Gentiles were men and women who had fellowship with the Jews before conversion (i.e. meeting in their synagogues with them), the newer converts came straight out of paganism and Hedonism. Thus, there was a cultural conflict - as you can imagine, much of one's cultural practices are their religious practices and "world view" expressions. All the heresies the early "Church" had to deal with came out of Hellenistic thoughts being integrated into Christianity. 

 

So what we find is that the Body of Believers consisted of less Jews and more Gentiles, abandoned more of Jewish culture (which were their practices of faith integrated into their everyday lives), and drifted away from a Torah-based, Eastern-thought world view into more of a Hellenistic-based, Western-thought world view.

 

Celebrating The Feasts was to be replaced with new celebrations which brought in re-applied symbolism from their old religions. Sabbath as practiced by the Jews was changed to Sunday "worship".

 

 

Meanwhile, the Jewish faith had its own transformation. After the Temple, which is the center of the Torah-based religion, was destroyed, a prominent rabbi (I forget his name) created new rules for the Jews to follow as a means of keeping them together as a people and bound to the Torah. This new expression of faith relied on good deeds and maintaining the Torah where they could (i.e. moral laws, Sabbaths, Feasts) for redemption and salvation rather than the system of sacrificial atonement for salvation.

 

 

And thus we see the Old Covenant faith veering off in one direction from the original faith and the New Covenant faith veering off in another direction - two new religions.



#20
Spock

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Nice historical analysis neb,

The issue as I see it that I had to ponder and reflect upon is that transition you mentioned, is it God ordained or rather, is it pleasing to God for me to accept?

For example-
Worship on Sunday. I believe it came from the sun God worship. Didn't sound very attractive to me, so should I accept or reject?

The origin of Easter and Christmas - also did not sound God inspired too, but rather more pagan rooted. Why would I follow that?

What exactly are the implications of a new covenant? Does that mean throw away everything that is Jewish?

What is the relevance of Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council?

Is the old covenant gone for good? When did they go? Will those early practices be reinstated? Are the Ten Commandments only old covenant stuff for Jews only or are they universal for all time?

Are the sabbath Feasts only for Jews? Do they have an implication for latter times?

What does it mean to be grafted into Israel?

Did Christ or any apostle encourage or advocate a new religion? Who did encourage this break? Was it somebody I believe is a spokesperson for God?

WWJD. Does the life of Christ give me any indication of how I should live my life? Did he model things for me, or was he merely being a good Jew?

Many many more issues to wrestle with (for me at least). Still haven't resolved and I doubt I ever will to my satisfaction. (What else is new for me?)

For me, much to consider and if you know me, I do not accept anything just because tradition says this is the way it is or because it's been done for many hundreds of years. In fact, I'm suspicious of practically EVERYONE. lol




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