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Who Did Jesus Die For?

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#1
Waiting2BwithHim

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Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate

 

For whom did Jesus die? For the sins of the entire humanity or only for the elect? This was the topic of a live debate between Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael L. Brown and Alpha and Omega Ministries Director Dr. James White on RevelationTV.com Friday evening.

The issue boils down to what the intention of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was in Christ going to the cross, said White, who heads the Phoenix, Ariz.-based evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization, as the debate began Friday at 9 p.m. EST.

"Jesus' death on the cross was a covenantal death," White said. "God deals with His people in the form of a covenant, and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ. ... That has a specific audience, and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it is made. Specifically, Jesus Christ died in behalf of His elect people and that in so doing He procured eternal redemption in their place."

White, who has taught Greek, systematic theology and various topics in the field of apologetics, quoted Hebrews 9:15 as a basis for his argument. "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant," reads the verse.

The stated intention for Jesus' death on the cross is revealed to us in this passage, he said.

Brown, whose nationally-syndicated radio show, "The Line of Fire," airs throughout the United States, disagreed.

 

"The testimony of the Scripture is overwhelmingly clear that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, so as to pay for the sins of every human being who's ever lived, demonstrating the grace and love of God to the entire human race and securing the salvation of everyone who believes," stated Brown, president and professor of practical theology at Fellowship for International Revival and Evangelism School of Ministry in Concord, N.C.

Brown quoted John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The term, "the world," is clearly defined in John's Gospel, and it cannot mean the elect, argued Brown, director of the Coalition of Conscience.

He also quoted 1 John 2:2 ("He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.") and 1 Timothy 2:3-6 ("...God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people...").

White responded by asking if the word "all" is used without distinction in the Bible. God demonstrates His love toward the entire created order in His Son Jesus Christ, but even John 3:16 limits who benefits from Christ's death, for those who believe, he said. He added that faith is described as a gift of God.

However, Jesus' death was not just the demonstration of God's love; He also took away the sins of the world, Brown contended.

Brown said he does not believe God can predestine anyone to hell. In fact, culpability comes only when some choose not to believe in Jesus' death which was also for them, he argued. If they were not elected in the first place, then why should they be held responsible for their response in the negative?

White said his concern is, what the result of the death of Jesus Christ is, and the extent and the impact of atonement. He asked if Jesus intercedes for everyone, then why His intercession is failing for some.

Faith and repentance are a gift of God, he repeated.

Brown argued that the New Testament repeatedly says we are justified by faith, and not by Christ's death only. "So there is human participation."

The sovereign God, he added, decided to create the world while foreseeing the results. "I have no problem with foreknowledge and free will ... But God set things up so that there would be a people who responded to His call to be His, and many who would not."

After the debate, a viewer asked White if he ever extended the Gospel invitation to a group of people comprising of both Christians and non-Christians, and if so how could he be honest by offering salvation to everyone because Jesus did not die for everyone?

White responded by saying we are called to make a clear Gospel presentation, and it is not for us to know the identity of the elect.

About how one's belief in predestination can affect his or her evangelism ministry, Brown said if he went to a village for preaching, he'd have hope that at least some of the people there would respond to the Gospel. On the other hand, those who believe in election may not know if there's anyone from the elect in that group, he added.

While they had disagreements, Brown and White appreciated each other's ministries and walk with the Lord.

On Saturday evening, the two theologians will debate on whether the gift of healing has ceased for the present age.

 

http://www.christian...-debate-113382/



#2
shiloh357

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Jesus died for every man, woman and child.  Every person born into this world is a person for whom Christ died.   There is nothing in the Bible says that Jesus died for only one group of human beings, specially selected to be saved. 



#3
GlidingWings

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I think I can see this 2 ways. Sure Jesus offers life. But life to who? He offers salvation but salvation to who? Jesus was sitting at the table with sinners. They had scoffed at Jesus for doing this. Why is not Jesus sitting along with the righteous? Why is Jesus dining with sinners?

 Jesus told them those who are well don’t need to have a doctor. But those who are sick need to have a doctor. I had not come for the righteous. Jesus was not looking for the righteous since they who believe on Him are saved. But it is Jesus desire even to to save ’The Lost Sheep’ to go after that one. He is like a shepherd that leaves 99 in the sheep fold. He will go after the one who has turned away from God to call upon that lost sheep. There is no guarantee that sheep will come back.

Luke 15:1-7
The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


In my Biblical opinion Jesus died for everyone.. Because on the day that Jesus died some had believed as the disciples and Mary his mother and Mary the sister of Lazarus. But Jesus said Father Father forgive them. . They do not know what they are doing.

Luke 23:34

34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”[h]

Romans 5:8. Even while we were sinners Christ had died for us.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

If Christ only died for the righteous then only some can be saved. But Jesus died for all mankind that any man will not have any excuse to say.. . But Lord I was a sinner and there was no way for me. But you sinner Christ died for you.

It is Jesus who become the Lamb that His blood was poured out for our transgressions.. if Christ only died for the Church and the righteous then the lost can not find a way for salvation.. Jesus said to the religious. I say to you Tax collectors and Prostitutes will enter the Kingdom before you will. Every person will stand before God. Many will say God and why do you judge me? Then God will say you owe an account of an explanation to me. For I have given the life of my only Son His blood in which He had died for you and all people. .

He has purchased this right that all shall give an explanation why or why not they did not accept this gift I had sent. Jesus died that we may have life in Him. But because He died many will also be condemned in rejecting His death. The Father has put all things under His feet.

So because Jesus died for all everyone has to make an account of did they believe or not believe on him Jesus. Because the blood Jesus poured out is fitting to judge both the righteous and the wicked. . Think of Jesus on the cross. One man accepted him the other did not.

One side is the sheep of the cross the other is the Goat. Then some will say Jesus I can’t go into the kingdom of God and why not? Jesus will say I died for you. If you would have believed you would have taken this gift.



#4
kwikphilly

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Blessings Waiting...

     I believe exactly as the Word of God says in John 3:16 "WHO)SO)EVER" and that means every person in the world! I think most of the confusion comes with the misunderstanding of God "fore-knowing" because He is not bound by space or time so many people just have alot of trouble digesting the fact that God is from Everlasting to Everlasting,Alpha & Omega..........He gave everyone free will to accept His Son & be saved but  their Names were already written in the Book of Life because He knows who will choose & who will not,this does not mean that when Jesus arrived on the scene in our dimension,He only died for an elect group ,,,,,,,they made their own choice to reject Him....my little 2 cents :mgcheerful:

                                                                                                                        With love in Christ-Kwik



#5
Qnts2

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A while back, I used to informally debate people who were Reformed/Calvinist. I was in the process of learning what Calvinism was, and also looking to see if it was biblical. Calvinism is a logical system, and the logic leads to certain understandings of scripture. Arminianism is also a logical system, which leads to certain understandings of scripture. A Calvinist when speaking to an Arminian, is speaking outside of the Arminian logic and sounds nonsensical within the realm of Arminian logic, and vice versa.

 

For a 5 point Calvinist, (supralapsarian), before the world was formed, God either chose those to be saved, or chose the elect and chose the people who would end up in hell (reprobate). In order to achieve salvation of the elect only, Jesus only died for the elect. The thought behind this is that Jesus death for sin, is what causes a person to be able to be saved. If Jesus died for all, then all would have had their sins forgiven and be saved. Calvinists often think Arminians, who believe Jesus died for all, are universalists, because Jesus death for all would cause all to be saved. 

 

Arminians believe that salvation is at least two steps, Jesus death, and faith in Jesus. The second step is what decides who is saved, so Jesus could die for all without being universalist, as those who reject Jesus are not saved. Actually, this view is a little similar to 4 point Calvinists who believe Jesus died for all, but only the elect will receive faith.

 

I personally think it is an error to view the death of Jesus for peoples sins is what causes salvation. His death was needed for forgiveness of sin, but due to our sin (or Adams sin), we were already dead, so it is not just Jesus death, but also Jesus resurrection which comprises salvation. We needed life. Jesus came to give life is repeated in scripture. In order to give life, Jesus had to die for all sins, or once we receive life, one more sin once again would cause death. Salvation is not caused by Who Jesus died for, but is actually a multi-step process. Of course most Calvinists would object to our involvement as it would remove the sovereignty of God in their logical view. God chose who would be saved, and wants those He chose to be saved, and since God is sovereign, He gets what He wants.   

 

Both James White and Michael Brown are very smart men, and both are experienced debaters. Good stuff.     



#6
Rustyangel

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Jesus died for every man, woman and child.  Every person born into this world is a person for whom Christ died.   There is nothing in the Bible says that Jesus died for only one group of human beings, specially selected to be saved. 

Thank you for the a short point of truth.  He loves all of us and died for each and everyone, past , present and future.  John 3:16 says it all.  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son  that who so ever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life. Nothing in there about just the elect.  I love Him for His unconditional love for me.  He loves me no matter what.  What an amazing love that is.  Thank you Jesus!



#7
bopeep1909

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Jesus died for every man, woman and child.  Every person born into this world is a person for whom Christ died.   There is nothing in the Bible says that Jesus died for only one group of human beings, specially selected to be saved. 

Yes....  :mgcheerful:



#8
other one

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me



#9
Fez

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me

No ME!

 

Ok both of us!

 

All of us!



#10
Willa

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John 3:17 NKJV For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and man loved darkness rather than the light, lest his deeds be exposed. Yes Jesus died for all mankind.

So the whole world is already condemned; but through Jesus, all who do not resist God's light and grace may be saved. In other words, when we do not resist a little light, such as God revealing Himself in His creation, and we glorify Him and are thankful for that revelation, He gives more so that we receive the gift of saving faith. It is a gift from God offered to all, but not all are willing to receive Him. Jesus said Jeruselem, Jeruselem, ---how often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Matt 23:37 Stephen said: You stiff-necked and uncircumcised of heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51 We must be not resist God's loving grace toward us. When we reject His light, even that which we have is taken away.
Many are called but few are chosen. God calls the whole world but only those who do not resist His call, His light and His grace may be saved. And those who endure to the end shall be saved. God foreknows all who endure and chooses these. 1 Peter 1:2 We are so grateful for the Cleansing blood of the Lamb, the covenant of God's undeserved favor, the washing of the Spirit by the Word that we produce good fruit such as repentance, love, obedience and the like. And we are chosen so that we may bear fruit. John 15:2, 16 You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you that you should bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain--.For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13. 2 Peter 1:10 tells us to make our calling and election sure by growing in our faith--adding virtue, knowledge, perserverence, godliness, brotherly kindness and brotherly love.

Having said all of that, yes Jesus kept all that the Father had given him but the son of perdition. And I believe that He still keeps all that the Father gives Him and nothing can snatch us out of His hand. All that are truely His will want to continue in His word, in fellowship and in prayer so as to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. We will present out bodies as living sacrifices to God and offer ourselves as bond slaves to Him in our desire to serve Him. Romans 12:1-2, 6:20 NKJV But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Yet we are told that we are reassured of our salvation as we walk in the Spirit because the Holy Spirit bears witness with out spirits that we are sons. His Spirit is the down payment on what is to come when He redeems our bodies and takes us to be with Him. Even His chastening reassures us that we are His because He treats us as sons Hebrews 12:5-7 NKJV His rod and His staff, they comfort me.

#11
rjp34652

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Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate

 

For whom did Jesus die? For the sins of the entire humanity or only for the elect? This was the topic of a live debate between Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael L. Brown and Alpha and Omega Ministries Director Dr. James White on RevelationTV.com Friday evening.

The issue boils down to what the intention of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was in Christ going to the cross, said White, who heads the Phoenix, Ariz.-based evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization, as the debate began Friday at 9 p.m. EST.

"Jesus' death on the cross was a covenantal death," White said. "God deals with His people in the form of a covenant, and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ. ... That has a specific audience, and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it is made. Specifically, Jesus Christ died in behalf of His elect people and that in so doing He procured eternal redemption in their place."

White, who has taught Greek, systematic theology and various topics in the field of apologetics, quoted Hebrews 9:15 as a basis for his argument. "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant," reads the verse.

The stated intention for Jesus' death on the cross is revealed to us in this passage, he said.

Brown, whose nationally-syndicated radio show, "The Line of Fire," airs throughout the United States, disagreed.

 

"The testimony of the Scripture is overwhelmingly clear that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, so as to pay for the sins of every human being who's ever lived, demonstrating the grace and love of God to the entire human race and securing the salvation of everyone who believes," stated Brown, president and professor of practical theology at Fellowship for International Revival and Evangelism School of Ministry in Concord, N.C.

Brown quoted John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The term, "the world," is clearly defined in John's Gospel, and it cannot mean the elect, argued Brown, director of the Coalition of Conscience.

He also quoted 1 John 2:2 ("He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.") and 1 Timothy 2:3-6 ("...God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people...").

White responded by asking if the word "all" is used without distinction in the Bible. God demonstrates His love toward the entire created order in His Son Jesus Christ, but even John 3:16 limits who benefits from Christ's death, for those who believe, he said. He added that faith is described as a gift of God.

However, Jesus' death was not just the demonstration of God's love; He also took away the sins of the world, Brown contended.

Brown said he does not believe God can predestine anyone to hell. In fact, culpability comes only when some choose not to believe in Jesus' death which was also for them, he argued. If they were not elected in the first place, then why should they be held responsible for their response in the negative?

White said his concern is, what the result of the death of Jesus Christ is, and the extent and the impact of atonement. He asked if Jesus intercedes for everyone, then why His intercession is failing for some.

Faith and repentance are a gift of God, he repeated.

Brown argued that the New Testament repeatedly says we are justified by faith, and not by Christ's death only. "So there is human participation."

The sovereign God, he added, decided to create the world while foreseeing the results. "I have no problem with foreknowledge and free will ... But God set things up so that there would be a people who responded to His call to be His, and many who would not."

After the debate, a viewer asked White if he ever extended the Gospel invitation to a group of people comprising of both Christians and non-Christians, and if so how could he be honest by offering salvation to everyone because Jesus did not die for everyone?

White responded by saying we are called to make a clear Gospel presentation, and it is not for us to know the identity of the elect.

About how one's belief in predestination can affect his or her evangelism ministry, Brown said if he went to a village for preaching, he'd have hope that at least some of the people there would respond to the Gospel. On the other hand, those who believe in election may not know if there's anyone from the elect in that group, he added.

While they had disagreements, Brown and White appreciated each other's ministries and walk with the Lord.

On Saturday evening, the two theologians will debate on whether the gift of healing has ceased for the present age.

 

http://www.christian...-debate-113382/

 

 

Another expression of the Universalist creed.   Pointless but well written.

 

To answer the question, Jesus died FOR ME.

 

How're you doing pal?   When you meet God are you prepared to use scripture like a tennis ball in a polite debate so as to defend your position and your immortal soul?  

 

If you are so very very sure that the whole world will be saved;

- why is there so much evil in it - evil that prospers?  And what do you do with the really bad ones - the ones that love wickedness?

- why are there so many (atheists and others) who disagree vehemently with you? (Shouldn't they be saved too or do they get a discount rate after the offer expires)

- why does the Bible make so many references to 'the elect' and to 'the chosen' as though these were people who get a special consideration for salvation?

- why did Jesus say that few would be saved and many would be lost? (apparently He didn't agree with Universalism)

- why are there so many references to hell and warnings against it? (Jesus said it would be better to cut off part of your flesh than go there - meaning it is possible)

- why does the Bible say that the whole world would swallow satan's lies except for the elect?

 

Sadly, the whole world doesn't get saved.  No man in his right mind would admit to such a fallacy.  

 

But it does sell well to those who want assurance without responsibility.

 

The god racket, after all, is a very good business.   A Universalist is one who can profit by such an arrangement.

 

But will such a man be saved in the end?   hmmmmm

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...






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