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Rapid Post-Flood Speciation


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#1
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Creationists disagree on the extent of Noah’s Flood. The main reason young-earth creationists insist the Flood was a global event is their model demands it. The Flood is the mechanism they use to explain the earth’s geological features. Rather than forming over millions or billions of years as most scientists believe, young-earth creationists maintain the earth’s features are the result of global floodwaters and processes that accompanied the Flood, like erosion, volcanism and tectonics.1 They also attribute the majority of the fossil record, virtually everything below the Tertiary strata, to the Flood.2

One problem for the global-Flood view is explaining how the earth was repopulated with land animals after the Flood. Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds." These, they say, were the ancestral seeds God provided to repopulate the world. As the "kinds" left the ark, they gave rise to the many different species on Earth today. For example, horses, zebras and donkeys descended from an equine "kind," dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals from a canine "kind," and cattle, bison and water buffalos from a cattle "kind."3

If true, the amount of post-Flood speciation must have been staggering. Young-earth creationists estimate Noah took 8,000 to 20,000 species on the ark. They also say a significant number of these species went extinct shortly after the Flood.4,5 Based on their dating method, approximately 7 million species have existed since the Flood–about 2 million have gone extinct and 5 million are alive today. Therefore, nearly 7 million species must have arisen from far less than 20,000 species in a time frame of a few hundred years.6

How could new species have appeared so fast? Young-earth creationists say the "kinds" on the ark had a built-in capacity for change.7 Within each "kind" was created a rich genetic coding that permitted them to shift their major characteristics to adapt to a wide range of post-Flood environments.8 They say this genetic system would have generated new species rather quickly because the changes occurred through recombination of existing genes in the rich genomes of the "kinds," not mutations as evolution requires.9

According to the young-earth model, this rapid speciation was triggered by environmental pressure working on small, isolated populations. After the Flood, the earth experienced several hundred years of residual catastrophism.10 As the animals left the ark, small groups became geographically isolated. Each group, having a small gene pool, suffered genetic loss as they reproduced–each losing a different portion of their original genetic information. Thus, over time, each group started looking, acting and living differently than original "kind."11

Young-earth creationists insist the Biblical account of history not only accommodates such rapid speciation but requires it.12 However, many creationists consider the fixity of species to be a central pillar of biblical creationism. Given the implications of the young-earth model, it is important to take a critical look at some of the assumptions.

Post-Flood Conditions

The young-earth model is predicated on the belief the Flood was a worldwide catastrophe that left the earth ecologically unstable with earthquakes, volcanoes, temperature fluctuations and harmful radiation.13 However, the global-Flood model contradicts a vast body of geological and geophysical data.14 Scientists find no evidence of recent tectonics, volcanism or erosion on a scale nearly as great as the global Flood model requires.15 There are also too many organisms in the fossil record to assert they came from a single generation of living creatures that were killed by the Flood–the earth simply could not support that many organisms.16,17

In fact, if the Flood was as catastrophic as young-earth creationists maintain, it is doubtful anything would have survived. The young-earth model would require vertical land erosion of more than 700 feet per day and tectonic uplift of more than 200 vertical feet per day. Anything more than just one foot of erosion or tectonic uplift is sufficient to destroy most modern cities. Though the ark was seaworthy for a local flood, the G-forces produced by such cataclysmic movements would have destroyed it and its occupants.18

Some species also argue against the global-Flood model. The opossum, for example, shows little change over millions of years. The Cretaceous opossum of 70 million years ago–which most young-earth creationists would classify as pre-Flood because the fossils are found in strata they classify as Flood deposits19–is very much like the opossum of today. Such continuous series of similar fossils tells us no divergence has occurred. This indicates the opossum and other species experienced fairly uniform conditions before and after the Flood.20

Equally important, the Bible does not state the Flood changed the earth. Nowhere does the Bible speak of the volcanism, mountain uplift and continent formation embedded in the young-earth model. Nor is there any indication the post-Flood world was unstable. If that were the case, surely Noah would have expressed concern about the post-Flood conditions and God would have given Noah special instructions on how he was to survive. Instead, the Bible tells us Noah and his family immediately began farming and planted a vineyard–impossible if the conditions were as harsh as young-earth creationists suggest.21

Animals on the Ark

The young-earth model assumes Noah took pairs of the originally created "kinds" on the ark–virtually everything but insects and sea creatures.22 However, the Genesis flood account uses two different Hebrew words, nephesh and basar, to describe the animals taken aboard the ark. The word nephesh refers to "soulish" creatures that can relate to humans. The word basar refers to certain birds and mammals that interact with humans.23 Thus, the ark did not contain representatives of all the originally created "kinds." It only contained certain species of birds and mammals that lived within the reach of the Flood’s devastation and were important to Noah’s short-term survival.

The young-earth model also assumes the animals on the ark were unique–they possessed special genetic coding that allowed them to quickly adapt to the post-Flood environment and produce new species. However, nowhere does Bible state the animals on the ark were different or endowed with special qualities. Nor is there a single example from field research that supports this claim. If modern species descended from common ancestors on the ark, we would expect to find evidence of intermediate forms. We would also expect to see thousands of new species arising today. However, nothing we observe suggests today’s species descended from common ancestors on the ark.24

In fact, rapid post-Flood extinctions seem to argue against the position the ark animals were endowed with special qualities. Young-earth creationists maintain God programmed the animals so they could survive and repopulate the earth. Yet, according to their model, a significant number of animals became extinct shortly after the Flood. For example, they contend Noah took dinosaurs on the ark but they were not able to survive the harsh post-Flood conditions and went extinct.25 If God endowed the ark animals with special qualities so they would survive, why did so many species go extinct? And, if only certain animals were endow these special qualities, why did God have Noah take the other animals aboard the ark?



#2
shiloh357

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Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds."

 

That's what the Bible actually says.  YEC'ers didn't make that up.



#3
Enoch2021

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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com


Edited by Enoch2021, 27 January 2014 - 06:11 PM.


#4
shiloh357

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The young-earth model assumes Noah took pairs of the originally created "kinds" on the ark–virtually everything but insects and sea creatures.22 However, the Genesis flood account uses two different Hebrew words, nephesh and basar, to describe the animals taken aboard the ark. The word nephesh refers to "soulish" creatures that can relate to humans. The word basar refers to certain birds and mammals that interact with humans.23 Thus, the ark did not contain representatives of all the originally created "kinds." It only contained certain species of birds and mammals that lived within the reach of the Flood’s devastation and were important to Noah’s short-term survival.

 

This section is demonstratably false and really further destroys the credibility of the article.   I have already posted about this exact claim in the flood thread.

 

And you need to cite the thread and give proper attribution to the author.



#5
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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com

 

Wow, the great and mighty Oz lowered himself enough to speak to me, I feel so honored! 

 

Sorry, forgot the link...http://www.reasons.o...ung-earth-model



#6
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Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds."

 

That's what the Bible actually says.  YEC'ers didn't make that up.

 

 

so if "bird" is a kind, which is basically what you put forth in past threads, why did Noah have to bring seven pair of every kind of bird? 



#7
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The young-earth model assumes Noah took pairs of the originally created "kinds" on the ark–virtually everything but insects and sea creatures.22 However, the Genesis flood account uses two different Hebrew words, nephesh and basar, to describe the animals taken aboard the ark. The word nephesh refers to "soulish" creatures that can relate to humans. The word basar refers to certain birds and mammals that interact with humans.23 Thus, the ark did not contain representatives of all the originally created "kinds." It only contained certain species of birds and mammals that lived within the reach of the Flood’s devastation and were important to Noah’s short-term survival.

 

This section is demonstratably false and really further destroys the credibility of the article.   I have already posted about this exact claim in the flood thread.

 

And you need to cite the thread and give proper attribution to the author.

 

 

It is used in the flood account,  it is used in Chapter 9 when God is speaking of the animals that were on the ark.



#8
Enoch2021

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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com

 

Wow, the great and mighty Oz lowered himself enough to speak to me, I feel so honored! 

 

Sorry, forgot the link...http://www.reasons.o...ung-earth-model

 

 

LOL....we all must sacrifice



#9
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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com

 

Wow, the great and mighty Oz lowered himself enough to speak to me, I feel so honored! 

 

Sorry, forgot the link...http://www.reasons.o...ung-earth-model

 

 

LOL....we all must sacrifice

 

 

I put it down on my calendar the day the great and mighty one choose to speak to me!  This is a banner day  :clap: :hurrah:



#10
Enoch2021

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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com

 

Wow, the great and mighty Oz lowered himself enough to speak to me, I feel so honored! 

 

Sorry, forgot the link...http://www.reasons.o...ung-earth-model

 

 

LOL....we all must sacrifice

 

 

I put it down on my calendar the day the great and mighty one choose to speak to me!  This is a banner day  :clap: :hurrah:

 

 

The sarcasm with the emoticons is all most to much to bare



#11
shiloh357

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Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds."

 

That's what the Bible actually says.  YEC'ers didn't make that up.

 

 

so if "bird" is a kind, which is basically what you put forth in past threads, why did Noah have to bring seven pair of every kind of bird? 

 

I never said that "bird" was a kind.  I was only speaking of mammals like dogs and cats.



#12
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Can you CITE this or did you write it?? ...Looks like Strawman.com

 

Wow, the great and mighty Oz lowered himself enough to speak to me, I feel so honored! 

 

Sorry, forgot the link...http://www.reasons.o...ung-earth-model

 

 

LOL....we all must sacrifice

 

 

I put it down on my calendar the day the great and mighty one choose to speak to me!  This is a banner day  :clap: :hurrah:

 

 

The sarcasm with the emoticons is all most to much to bare

 

 

Just trying to follow your example in other threads, you seem to like posting both so not sure why you would mind me doing it



#13
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Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds."

 

That's what the Bible actually says.  YEC'ers didn't make that up.

 

 

so if "bird" is a kind, which is basically what you put forth in past threads, why did Noah have to bring seven pair of every kind of bird? 

 

I never said that "bird" was a kind.  I was only speaking of mammals like dogs and cats.

 

 

Then, when we are talking about birds, what is a kind?



#14
shiloh357

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Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds."

 

That's what the Bible actually says.  YEC'ers didn't make that up.

 

 

so if "bird" is a kind, which is basically what you put forth in past threads, why did Noah have to bring seven pair of every kind of bird? 

 

I never said that "bird" was a kind.  I was only speaking of mammals like dogs and cats.

 

 

Then, when we are talking about birds, what is a kind?

 

There different "kinds of birds, perhaps?    It's not like the animal world where a German Shepherd can mate with an Irish Setter.    Birds don't mate like mammals.  Cardinals don't mate with crows.   So it stands to reason that God had Noah take seven pair of each kind of bird.  Actually God brought them to Noah.



#15
Spock

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Creationists disagree on the extent of Noah’s Flood. The main reason young-earth creationists insist the Flood was a global event is their model demands it. The Flood is the mechanism they use to explain the earth’s geological features. Rather than forming over millions or billions of years as most scientists believe, young-earth creationists maintain the earth’s features are the result of global floodwaters and processes that accompanied the Flood, like erosion, volcanism and tectonics.1 They also attribute the majority of the fossil record, virtually everything below the Tertiary strata, to the Flood.2
One problem for the global-Flood view is explaining how the earth was repopulated with land animals after the Flood. Young-earth creationists who recognize the problem of fitting all the land animals on the ark now conclude Noah only took pairs of the Genesis "kinds." These, they say, were the ancestral seeds God provided to repopulate the world. As the "kinds" left the ark, they gave rise to the many different species on Earth today. For example, horses, zebras and donkeys descended from an equine "kind," dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals from a canine "kind," and cattle, bison and water buffalos from a cattle "kind."3
If true, the amount of post-Flood speciation must have been staggering. Young-earth creationists estimate Noah took 8,000 to 20,000 species on the ark. They also say a significant number of these species went extinct shortly after the Flood.4,5 Based on their dating method, approximately 7 million species have existed since the Flood–about 2 million have gone extinct and 5 million are alive today. Therefore, nearly 7 million species must have arisen from far less than 20,000 species in a time frame of a few hundred years.6
How could new species have appeared so fast? Young-earth creationists say the "kinds" on the ark had a built-in capacity for change.7 Within each "kind" was created a rich genetic coding that permitted them to shift their major characteristics to adapt to a wide range of post-Flood environments.8 They say this genetic system would have generated new species rather quickly because the changes occurred through recombination of existing genes in the rich genomes of the "kinds," not mutations as evolution requires.9
According to the young-earth model, this rapid speciation was triggered by environmental pressure working on small, isolated populations. After the Flood, the earth experienced several hundred years of residual catastrophism.10 As the animals left the ark, small groups became geographically isolated. Each group, having a small gene pool, suffered genetic loss as they reproduced–each losing a different portion of their original genetic information. Thus, over time, each group started looking, acting and living differently than original "kind."11
Young-earth creationists insist the Biblical account of history not only accommodates such rapid speciation but requires it.12 However, many creationists consider the fixity of species to be a central pillar of biblical creationism. Given the implications of the young-earth model, it is important to take a critical look at some of the assumptions.

Post-Flood Conditions
The young-earth model is predicated on the belief the Flood was a worldwide catastrophe that left the earth ecologically unstable with earthquakes, volcanoes, temperature fluctuations and harmful radiation.13 However, the global-Flood model contradicts a vast body of geological and geophysical data.14 Scientists find no evidence of recent tectonics, volcanism or erosion on a scale nearly as great as the global Flood model requires.15 There are also too many organisms in the fossil record to assert they came from a single generation of living creatures that were killed by the Flood–the earth simply could not support that many organisms.16,17
In fact, if the Flood was as catastrophic as young-earth creationists maintain, it is doubtful anything would have survived. The young-earth model would require vertical land erosion of more than 700 feet per day and tectonic uplift of more than 200 vertical feet per day. Anything more than just one foot of erosion or tectonic uplift is sufficient to destroy most modern cities. Though the ark was seaworthy for a local flood, the G-forces produced by such cataclysmic movements would have destroyed it and its occupants.18
Some species also argue against the global-Flood model. The opossum, for example, shows little change over millions of years. The Cretaceous opossum of 70 million years ago–which most young-earth creationists would classify as pre-Flood because the fossils are found in strata they classify as Flood deposits19–is very much like the opossum of today. Such continuous series of similar fossils tells us no divergence has occurred. This indicates the opossum and other species experienced fairly uniform conditions before and after the Flood.20
Equally important, the Bible does not state the Flood changed the earth. Nowhere does the Bible speak of the volcanism, mountain uplift and continent formation embedded in the young-earth model. Nor is there any indication the post-Flood world was unstable. If that were the case, surely Noah would have expressed concern about the post-Flood conditions and God would have given Noah special instructions on how he was to survive. Instead, the Bible tells us Noah and his family immediately began farming and planted a vineyard–impossible if the conditions were as harsh as young-earth creationists suggest.21

Animals on the Ark
The young-earth model assumes Noah took pairs of the originally created "kinds" on the ark–virtually everything but insects and sea creatures.22 However, the Genesis flood account uses two different Hebrew words, nephesh and basar, to describe the animals taken aboard the ark. The word nephesh refers to "soulish" creatures that can relate to humans. The word basar refers to certain birds and mammals that interact with humans.23 Thus, the ark did not contain representatives of all the originally created "kinds." It only contained certain species of birds and mammals that lived within the reach of the Flood’s devastation and were important to Noah’s short-term survival.
The young-earth model also assumes the animals on the ark were unique–they possessed special genetic coding that allowed them to quickly adapt to the post-Flood environment and produce new species. However, nowhere does Bible state the animals on the ark were different or endowed with special qualities. Nor is there a single example from field research that supports this claim. If modern species descended from common ancestors on the ark, we would expect to find evidence of intermediate forms. We would also expect to see thousands of new species arising today. However, nothing we observe suggests today’s species descended from common ancestors on the ark.24
In fact, rapid post-Flood extinctions seem to argue against the position the ark animals were endowed with special qualities. Young-earth creationists maintain God programmed the animals so they could survive and repopulate the earth. Yet, according to their model, a significant number of animals became extinct shortly after the Flood. For example, they contend Noah took dinosaurs on the ark but they were not able to survive the harsh post-Flood conditions and went extinct.25 If God endowed the ark animals with special qualities so they would survive, why did so many species go extinct? And, if only certain animals were endow these special qualities, why did God have Noah take the other animals aboard the ark?


My first thought on this deep subject is I can't imagine why God would need to flood the entire earth. This flood took place before man was scattered at the Tower of Babel, thus all men lived pretty close to each other in the Mid East. If God were going to wipe out all of mankind, why flood the entire earth when everyone pretty much lives in one region.

I'm not sure about the meaning of the words if we are to take that literally (all earth) or "all land" where man lived. I know "all" doesn't always mean "all" as we know it.

I also see so many problems in trying to figure things out if we say it was global flood.

These are my initial thoughts...... I'm always open minded on this one.

#16
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My first thought on this deep subject is I can't imagine why God would need to flood the entire earth. This flood took place before man was scattered at the Tower of Babel, thus all men lived pretty close to each other in the Mid East. If God were going to wipe out all of mankind, why flood the entire earth when everyone pretty much lives in one region.

I'm not sure about the meaning of the words if we are to take that literally (all earth) or "all land" where man lived. I know "all" doesn't always mean "all" as we know it.

I also see so many problems in trying to figure things out if we say it was global flood.

These are my initial thoughts...... I'm always open minded on this one.

 

 

I am in the undecided camp right now, but there are lots of question that both views raise that are very hard to answer.



#17
Enoch2021

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My first thought on this deep subject is I can't imagine why God would need to flood the entire earth. This flood took place before man was scattered at the Tower of Babel, thus all men lived pretty close to each other in the Mid East. If God were going to wipe out all of mankind, why flood the entire earth when everyone pretty much lives in one region.

I'm not sure about the meaning of the words if we are to take that literally (all earth) or "all land" where man lived. I know "all" doesn't always mean "all" as we know it.

I also see so many problems in trying to figure things out if we say it was global flood.

These are my initial thoughts...... I'm always open minded on this one.

 

 

"My first thought on this deep subject is I can't imagine why God would need to flood the entire earth."

 

I have an answer for that but it will MOST Certainly derail the OP.

 

"This flood took place before man was scattered at the Tower of Babel, thus all men lived pretty close to each other in the Mid East."

 

That makes no sense Spock the 2 thoughts are not related.  And it's worse than a Logical Fallacy....the premise has zero to due with the conclusion.



#18
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I don't remember any real description of the overall geology of the earth prior to the flood.....   for all I know the mountains were not as high as they are now.    We actually don't know much of the pre flood world from the Bible.....



#19
FresnoJoe

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There different "kinds of birds, perhaps?    It's not like the animal world where a German Shepherd can mate with an Irish Setter.    Birds don't mate like mammals.  Cardinals don't mate with crows.   So it stands to reason that God had Noah take seven pair of each kind of bird.  Actually God brought them to Noah.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Sure Did Seven Days Before The Flood

 

And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
 

Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
 

And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. Genesis 7:7:10

 

The LORD Even Shut The Door

 

And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in. Genesis 7:16



#20
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Blessings other one

       I have noticed by many of your posts that your nerves(fingers)must be healing very well,praise the Lord!I am happy for your longer versions of late-lol

      On topic.......would not the Lord saying He would wipe out both man & beast (& birds of the air)from the FACE OF THE EARTH be descriptive enough for one to conclude this means the entire earth?

     I especially think the only way to wipe out every bird was if there were no where on earth for them to land.What do you think?

                                                                                                                      With love,in Chritt-Kwik






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