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Original Sin


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I saw an old thread on this topic that I can't locate...I think Butero was a part of that one but I can't remember.  If there is a way to find it and delete this thread I don't mind.  Ok, original sin...

My problem with the idea of original sin isn’t new to most orthodox Christians especially if you’ve been a member of this website for a long time.  If there is such thing as original sin and humanity became sinners the day they were born how can Jesus be our substitute?  I know about the scripture that says he is the second Adam but is this the perfect Adam before the fall who only was tempted outwardly or post fall, therefore just like you and I, also tempted from within as much as without?  If so how are we considered sinners the day we are born and share that nature with Jesus yet the bible says he never sinned?  Your thoughts and comments are appreciated especially when supported by scripture.  Gracias

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Hi Remnentrob

 

Is the the answer you are looking for?

 

"What is the substitutionary atonement?"

Answer:The substitutionary atonement refers to Jesus Christ dying as a substitute for sinners. The Scriptures teach that all men are sinners (Romans 3:9-18,23). The penalty for our sinfulness is death.Romans 6:23reads, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

That verse teaches us several things. Without Christ, we are going to die and spend an eternity in hell as payment for our sins. Death in the Scriptures refers to a “separation.” Everyone will die, but some will live in heaven with the Lord for eternity, while others will live a life in hell for eternity. The death spoken of here refers to the life in hell. However, the second thing this verse teaches us is that eternal life is available through Jesus Christ. This is His substitutionary atonement.

Jesus Christ died in our place when He was crucified on the cross. We deserved to be the ones placed on that cross to die because we are the ones who live sinful lives. But Christ took the punishment on Himself in our place—He substituted Himself for us and took what we rightly deserved. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24). Here again we see that Christ took the sins we committed onto Himself to pay the price for us. A few verses later we read, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit” (1 Peter 3:18). Not only do these verses teach us about the substitute that Christ was for us, but they also teach that He was the atonement, meaning He satisfied the payment due for the sinfulness of man.

One more passage that talks about the substitutionary atonement isIsaiah 53:5. This verse talks about the coming Christ who was to die on the cross for our sins. The prophecy is very detailed, and the crucifixion happened just as it was foretold. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Notice the substitution. Here again we see that Christ paid the price for us!

We can only pay the price of sin on our own by being punished and placed in hell for all eternity. But God’s Son, Jesus Christ, came to earth to pay for the price of our sins. Because He did this for us, we now have the opportunity to not only have our sins forgiven, but to spend eternity with Him. In order to do this we must place our faith in what Christ did on the cross. We cannot save ourselves; we need a substitute to take our place. The death of Jesus Christ is the substitutionary atonement.


Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionary-atonement.html#ixzz2rnxSwpyP

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it was Adam that sinned, not Eve who was deceived.    that is passed down through the male side, and Jesus does not have an earthly father......   so he was born outside the curse of Adam's sin.  As long as Jesus didn't sin, he should have physically lived forever.....    I might add that he also didn't have a brand new spirit as we did when we were conceived, the spirit that was Jesus had been with the Father before time.

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it was Adam that sinned, not Eve who was deceived.    that is passed down through the male side, and Jesus does not have an earthly father......   so he was born outside the curse of Adam's sin.  As long as Jesus didn't sin, he should have physically lived forever.....    I might add that he also didn't have a brand new spirit as we did when we were conceived, the spirit that was Jesus had been with the Father before time.

 

This is the first plausible explaination that I've heard concerning original sin... Thank you other one.

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I saw an old thread on this topic that I can't locate...I think Butero was a part of that one but I can't remember.  If there is a way to find it and delete this thread I don't mind.  Ok, original sin...

My problem with the idea of original sin isn’t new to most orthodox Christians especially if you’ve been a member of this website for a long time.  If there is such thing as original sin and humanity became sinners the day they were born how can Jesus be our substitute?  I know about the scripture that says he is the second Adam but is this the perfect Adam before the fall who only was tempted outwardly or post fall, therefore just like you and I, also tempted from within as much as without?  If so how are we considered sinners the day we are born and share that nature with Jesus yet the bible says he never sinned?  Your thoughts and comments are appreciated especially when supported by scripture.  Gracias

I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

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The bible says Jesus was of the seed of David and Abraham now those two were men.

 

Hebrews 2:16
16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Romans 1:3
3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

I think Jesus was definitely flesh head to toes, inside and out, just like us.

 

Now where could a sin be if it is a particle  be located ?

 

Jesus wasn't born with sin and neither are we.

 

Sinners are convicted sinner (law breaker)


 

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The bible says Jesus was of the seed of David and Abraham now those two were men.

 

Hebrews 2:16

16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Romans 1:3

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

I think Jesus was definitely flesh head to toes, inside and out, just like us.

 

Now where could a sin be if it is a particle  be located ?

 

Jesus wasn't born with sin and neither are we.

 

Sinners are convicted sinner (law breaker)

 

I personally have always looked at it that we are born under the curse of Adam's sin......    not necessarily sinners ourselves.

The old covenant of the law didn't not promise us eternal life, but a good life while we were alive.        I think the Law and the old covenant were actually to show us how lacking we as humans are.....   much of an object lesson.'

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Jesus was born of a virgin, Mary.  Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit into Mary.  Jesus had no earthly father, therefore no sin in Him.

 

The original sin brought about death,  We all die because of Adam's Sin.  We all sin because we were all born sinners, it is in our genes our blood.  We all have choice, freedom to do right or wrong, 

 

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned...  v.17 - For if, by the trespass of one man (Adam), death reigned through that one man...

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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The bible says Jesus was of the seed of David and Abraham now those two were men.

 

Hebrews 2:16

16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Romans 1:3

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

I think Jesus was definitely flesh head to toes, inside and out, just like us.

 

Now where could a sin be if it is a particle  be located ?

 

Jesus wasn't born with sin and neither are we.

 

Sinners are convicted sinner (law breaker)

 

I personally have always looked at it that we are born under the curse of Adam's sin......    not necessarily sinners ourselves.

The old covenant of the law didn't not promise us eternal life, but a good life while we were alive.        I think the Law and the old covenant were actually to show us how lacking we as humans are.....   much of an object lesson.'

 

I think we are under the same penalty(curse) as Adam, we sin we die also.

The penalty was passed on.

as the scripts says - OT soul that sinneth it shall die - NT the wages of sin is death

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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

 

Ditch those commentaries.

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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

 

Ditch those commentaries.

 

 

What do you mean you don't believe in original sin. What are you talking about, that you don't believe sin started with Adam and Eve?

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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

 

Ditch those commentaries.

 

 

What do you mean you don't believe in original sin. What are you talking about, that you don't believe sin started with Adam and Eve?

 

I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

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I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

 

But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch.

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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

 

Ditch those commentaries.

 

 

What do you mean you don't believe in original sin. What are you talking about, that you don't believe sin started with Adam and Eve?

 

I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

 

Not only is everyone guilty because of Adam's transgression (We were all in his loins when he sinned) but he also passed on to us a corrupt nature that scripture calls "the flesh". Not the body, but "the flesh" or once we become saved, "The Old man or nature". Man has a natural propensity to rebel against God, in fact scripture says the natural man who is not born again cannot please God, neither does he even want any parts of God.

 

 Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

 
Gen 6:5  The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 
 
Job 25:4  How then can a mortal be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? 
 
Scripture is full of passages that teach that sin comes from within man. The Law was simply the mirror to show man just how wicked he is. To deny original sin is only to deceive ourselves. Just as scripture speaks of the Spirit bringing forth fruit in our lives, it also speaks of the "fleshly nature" bringing forth all manner of sin, because it is corrupt. 
 
Gal 5:19  The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 
Gal 5:20  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 
Gal 5:21  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 
 
Eph 4:22  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 
 

Sin comes out of the heart of man. Unfortunately we are born in sin and shaped in iniquity.

 

Mat 15:18  But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 
 
Psa 51:5  Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 
 
 
 
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every two year old I've ever been around exhibits the true nature of the human......   and if they are not taught different before they are ten they are generally a major problem the rest of their lives.

 

 

Don't know if it came from Adam, or God just made us all that way including Adam.

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The bible says Jesus was of the seed of David and Abraham now those two were men.

 

Hebrews 2:16

16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Romans 1:3

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

I think Jesus was definitely flesh head to toes, inside and out, just like us.

 

Now where could a sin be if it is a particle  be located ?

 

Jesus wasn't born with sin and neither are we.

 

Sinners are convicted sinner (law breaker)

 

Jesus was not born with sin, because of who he is and HOW he was born. Make no mistake, he took on a body just like ours, one that was susceptible to weaknesses just like ours, but he is still the Eternal Logos, God in the flesh. Sin could find no place in him because he is the Lord of Glory. We are ONLY Human where as Christ was fully God, and Fully man. A great mystery to be sure, but him being who he is is why he was able to secure Eternal Redemption for us. Scripture even goes so far to say God shed his blood for us. 

 

Act 20:28  Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 
 
Praise God Christ lowered himself to become one of us, but He is the second Adam, not sold under sin like the rest of us were. The Holy One of God straight from the womb. 
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I don't buy into the doctrine of original sin. I believe it is Augustine's doctrine.

 

What do you mean you don't buy into it, it's not being sold. It's a fact of life and scripture. Original sin comes from man. You believe Genesis is false Butch?

 

Ditch those commentaries.

 

 

What do you mean you don't believe in original sin. What are you talking about, that you don't believe sin started with Adam and Eve?

 

I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

 

Not only is everyone guilty because of Adam's transgression (We were all in his loins when he sinned) but he also passed on to us a corrupt nature that scripture calls "the flesh". Not the body, but "the flesh" or once we become saved, "The Old man or nature". Man has a natural propensity to rebel against God, in fact scripture says the natural man who is not born again cannot please God, neither does he even want any parts of God.

 

 Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

 
Gen 6:5  The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 
 
Job 25:4  How then can a mortal be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? 
 
Scripture is full of passages that teach that sin comes from within man. The Law was simply the mirror to show man just how wicked he is. To deny original sin is only to deceive ourselves. Just as scripture speaks of the Spirit bringing forth fruit in our lives, it also speaks of the "fleshly nature" bringing forth all manner of sin, because it is corrupt. 
 
Gal 5:19  The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 
Gal 5:20  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 
Gal 5:21  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 
 
Eph 4:22  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 
 

Sin comes out of the heart of man. Unfortunately we are born in sin and shaped in iniquity.

 

Mat 15:18  But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 
 
Psa 51:5  Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 
 
 
 

 

Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written.

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Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written.

 

The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. 

 

Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

 
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Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written.

 

The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. 

 

Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

He said "he" had. How do you equate that to every single human who ever lived?

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I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

 

But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch.

 

Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others.

 

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV)

 

If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins.

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Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written.

 

The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. 

 

Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

He said "he" had. How do you equate that to every single human who ever lived?

 

Well, God almighty seems to agree with him. 

 

Rom 3:9  What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 
Rom 3:10  As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 
Rom 3:11  there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 
Rom 3:12  All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one
 
How about Job then? 
 
Job 15:14  "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous? 
Job 15:15  If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, 
Job 15:16  how much less mortals, who are vile and corrupt, who drink up evil like water! 
 
John?
 
1Jn 1:8  If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
 
If we are to treat scripture the way you are attempting to treat it, how could we claim any of God's precious promises and truths. Paul said things like "I am Crucified with Christ. According to you because he said "I" that can't include all of us. How about "for me to Live is Christ, to die is gain"? Nope, can't claim that either because Paul said "Me". That is simply an unacceptable way to share in scripture and smacks of one trying to hold onto a denominational point in spite of evidence to the contrary. 
 
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Sorry, Scripture doesn't teach that. I came from Augustine. These passages need to understood in the context in which they were written. One can claim a passage says many things if they remove it from teh context in which it was written.

 

The Apostle Paul said he had a "sinful nature". He said absolutely no good dwelled in this nature. Explain. 

 

Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

What version are you using ?

But is does not say he was born with it.

I think we create a sin nature, that I can agree with.

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I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine.

 

But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch.

 

Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others.

 

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV)

 

If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins.

 

Not to cut in but, in Adam all die. In fact our Lord said unless you become BORN AGAIN you will not see the Kingdom of God. If the Apple tree is corrupt, the Apples will be too. It is a necessity to get out of Adam and into Christ. 

 

Rom 5:18  Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 
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Rom 7:18  For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 

What version are you using ?

But is does not say he was born with it.

I think we create a sin nature, that I can agree with.

 

That was from the NIV, but it is the same in all versions. "The flesh" is that old nature that sin springs from. We never created a sin nature. Sin was introduced to man by satan, and since then we have become worse and worse. Adam can only produce his kind. Only in Christ can the power of indwelling sin, or sin in the flesh be broken. Sin is so bad in man that the Law only incites it to do more evil. It's even called "sinful flesh" in scripture. The Body is not sinful, we know this because scripture calls it God's temple when one believes on Christ. "The flesh" is that nature of sin that we are born with. A natural inclination to rebel against God. 

 

Scripture says we were at one point, "By nature" the Children of wrath. The word for nature is Phusis. Meaning germination as in from a native disposition. 

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