Asexual reproduction is vertical gene transfer (i.e. from parent cell to daughter cell). Horizontal (or lateral) gene transfer refers to mechanisms such as conjugation, transformation and transduction – where genes are acquired from sources other than the parent cell.
“Bacteria reproduce via a process called binary fission wherein the cell divides itself creating a genetically identical copy. When one cell becomes resistant, every "clone" thereafter is also immune”
You moved from the specifics of a description of binary fission to a vague description of the most important event in our discussion; “When one cell becomes resistant”. How does this occur?
The preponderance of evidence is that bacteria acquire antimicrobial resistance through horizontal gene transfer. That is, bacteria with resistance genes can share these genes with other bacteria (not restricted to the same species of bacteria); maybe through conjugation – directly copying the genes (on a plasmid vector) into a receiving bacteria using specialized pilli structures; or through transformation – the capacity of a bacteria to pick up genetic material directly from the environment; and more rarely through transduction – viral-mediated transfer of genes from one bacteria to another.
Common Ancestry is a model of the history of life based on inheritance. For example, the reason we share many genes with our siblings is because we inherited them from our parents. We share less (but still many) genes with our cousins because we inherited them through our grandparents. Common Ancestry extrapolates that concept to assume that we share genes with similar species because we inherited them through an ancestor species – and so-on, all the way back to a last universal common ancestor (LUCA). So any support for this model has to be based on observations of exclusive biological inheritance.
The capacity of bacteria to pass genes sideways renders them to be an illegitimate evidence for any inheritance-based model – not because they can’t inherit genes, but because the most prolific mechanism of genetic change is horizontal gene transfer. That is, because they can and do pass genes sideways, gene acquisition cannot be assumed to be inherited. Therefore the genetic change in bacteria does not provide support for a model based on inheritance; as it cannot be traced through inheritance.
No, you're wrong.
Asexual means non-sexual reproduction. Since bacteria do not mate they are asexual, they receive their genetic material from a single "parent" (I use this term for convenience, not in the true biological definition of a parent). Horizontal gene transfer is when an organism transfers it's genetic material to another that is not an offspring. Vertical gene transfer is from parent to child.
Anyone who is willing to slog through Tristen's post will notice a lot of technical jargon and large words. This is generally a tactic some people use to try and dazzle the reader and make it hard to figure out what is actually being said. You would think that on a public forum one would try and make their comments as reader friendly as possible. The reason some people do not is partly for the reason above and also because they don't really understand what they are posting. In academic circles this is called s Pseudo-Intellectual, a person who tries to impress with tons of large technical sounding language that doesn't actually say very much. The way to call this sort of behaviour out is to ask them a specific question like I did. Since they don't actually have much knowledge of the subject in which they speak they either don't answer or try to drown you in more jargon and endless repetition of the same points.
Luckily I have a masters degree in biology and a very high I.Q. to go with it, so I'll translate for anyone who cares:
In a nutshell:
Aside from actually confirming what I already said and not realizing it, he mentions how cells pass their immunity on to others via a process called "conjunction". This basically means cells touching each other. A nucleus is sort of a chamber that contains things like dna. Not all cells have a nucleus however so they contain their genetic material in the same membrane (the "shell") with everything else. Since bacteria are one of these non-nucleus cells they can pass their genes to one other merely by physical contact.
After this he is making a circular argument that changes can only be passed from parent to offspring, and we know this because changes can only be passed from parent to offspring. No supporting data is provided of course.
So Tristen I ask you once again, why do you think a nucleus and sexual reproduction are required for evolution to occur? And please post in plain speak so everyone on the forum can understand what is being said. It's the polite thing after all.
Well I’m glad you “have a masters degree in biology and a very high I.Q. to go with it”. I only have a meagre BSc. Here is what my textbooks teach;
Microbiology: An Introduction - Eleventh Edition (Tortura, Funke & Case) page 232.
“Vertical gene transfer occurs when a gene is passed from an organism to its offspring. Plants and animals transmit their genes by vertical transmission. Bacteria can pass their genes not only to their offspring, but also laterally, to other microbes of the same generation. This is known as horizontal gene transfer.”
Molecular Biology: Principles and Practice, 2012 (Cox, Doudna, O’Donnell) page 11.
“Gene flow between species can take place in a process called horizontal gene transfer. …
FIGURE 1-11 Horizontal Gene Transfer. Genetic material is transferred between organisms, especially bacteria, by several mechanisms. DNA may be taken up from the environment by transformation, transferred by viruses through transduction, or passed purposefully from one bacterium to another by conjugation.”
- From the Glossary of the same text (G-11)
“horizontal gene transfer: Process by which an organism receives genetic information from another organism from which it is not a descendant.”
So to whose authority should I defer – the person on the internet with a self-professed “masters degree in biology and a very high I.Q”, or course-specific textbooks accumulated during my Science degree?
“Anyone who is willing to slog through Tristen's post will notice a lot of technical jargon and large words. This is generally a tactic some people use to try and dazzle the reader and make it hard to figure out what is actually being said”
And a tactic I’ve noticed with some opponents of my position is the tendency to present logically fallacious innuendo regarding my level of knowledge, strategic motivations and etiquette – rather than providing any rational account of their own position.
What you call “technical jargon”, I call correct terminology. And in the majority of cases, I have provided basic definitions of the terminology I used. Rather than patronise people, I assume that someone interested enough in the discussion has the capacity to investigate definitions for themselves if they don’t understand something – that’s what most of us with normal IQs do when we don’t understand something.
“The way to call this sort of behaviour out is to ask them a specific question like I did”
The problem with your question is that it was founded upon a combination of 2 logical fallacies: Begging the Question and Strawman misrepresentation.
- Begging the Question: because you required a response to a claim that I didn’t actually make. Strawman: because you proceeded to debunk my argument based on your own misrepresentation of my position. I didn’t answer your question because your question was premised on a false representation of my position. So I simply stated that your premise was wrong.
“Aside from actually confirming what I already said and not realizing it, he mentions how cells pass their immunity on to others via a process called "conjunction"”
Well aside from your Unsupported Assertion and Empty Innuendo (both logical fallacies) regarding my “confirming” your position, you have demonstrated an awareness of the process of conjugation. Therefore you are aware that gene flow in bacteria can occur apart from inheritance. Therefore, they cannot be considered a reliable example supporting any genetic inheritance model.
“After this he is making a circular argument that changes can only be passed from parent to offspring, and we know this because changes can only be passed from parent to offspring. No supporting data is provided of course.”
I don’t feel any obligation to provide “supporting data” for claims I haven’t made. Perhaps your translation skills could use some polishing.
“So Tristen I ask you once again, why do you think a nucleus and sexual reproduction are required for evolution to occur? And please post in plain speak …”
OK – Let me be clear. I don’t “think a nucleus and sexual reproduction are required for evolution to occur”. I never made such a claim. I hope this is plain enough “so everyone on the forum can understand what is being said.”