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Irreducible Complexity

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Dr. Michael Behe: Irreducible Complexity (Blood Coagulation Cascade)

 

This is a very complicated mechanism and I'm just highlighting a few steps: Basically....

Fibrinogen (Inactive in Blood),  Prothrombin (Inactive in Blood).  Also bear in mind, Plasminogen breaks down the clots after the cascade is complete and healing has taken place.

When you cut yourself, Prothrombin is converted to Thrombin which then converts Fibrinogen to Fibrin which then forms networks of polymerized Fibrins that clots the blood and stops the bleeding.   These factors have to be inactive in the blood until insult or else you'd get runaway clotting and vapor lock.
Professor Russell Doolittle (Professor of Biochemistry @ UC San Diego, Member of the National Academy of Sciences) has worked on Blood Clotting for 50 years and is the world's foremost expert, published "A Delicate Balance" in Boston Review which is Published by MIT: "Recently the gene for PLAMINOGEN(sic) was knocked out of mice.....then the same workers knocked out the gene for Fibrinogen in another line of mice.  And what do you think happened when these two lines were crossed?  For all practical purposes, the Mice lacking both genes were normal! Contrary to claims about irreducible complexity, the entire ensemble of proteins are not needed.  Music and harmony can arise from a smaller orchestra."

Dr Doolittle of course is wrong and was referring to a paper that he apparently just skimmed through, as in...just looked @ the Title, and not the whole Title but just "Loss of Fibrinogen Rescues Mice": This paper is..... "Loss of Fibrinogen Rescues Mice from the Pleiotropic Effects of Plasminogen Deficiency" Thomas Brugge et al (1996), Cell Volume 87, 709-715.

 

Authors Abstract...."Mice deficient in plasminogen and fibrinogen are phenotypically indistinguishable from fibrinogen-deficient mice".  That is to say...the new line of mice that are missing both (plasminogen and fibrinogen) have all the problems of the Fibrinogen Missing line except Thrombosis (Plasminogen breaks the clots down after healing): Blood doesn't clot (duh), hemorrhage (duh), female mice die during pregnancy (duh)!!  See other Knockout Gene studies that ALL resulted in offspring death: (Bugge et al 1995, Suh et al 1995, Suh et al 1998, Bugge et al 1996). 

Each time one factor was KNOCKED OUT in each line....The respective OFFSPRING MICE DIED!!  Which is exactly the POINT of Irreducible Complexity that Dr. Behe was illustrating!  Moreover (and this is quite troubling), Professor Doolittle obviously didn't know as evidenced by reviewing (extremely superficially) another study while being the world's foremost expert on the topic .....what does that tell you?

We're not done: watch how the "a priori adherence" to fairytales "cascades" and a typical CLUMSY tactic used by evolutionists propagates.... Note in Professor Doolittle's response to Dr. Behe in the previous MIT article, PLAMINOGEN(sic) is misspelled.  It was just a typo from Professor Doolittle... not a big deal he surely knows how to spell the word correctly. 

Michael Ruse (Philosopher of Biology and world renowned Darwinian supporter) decides to chime in on this issue a year later...."For example, Behe is a real scientist, but this case for the impossibility of a small-step natural origin of biological complexity has been trampled upon contemptuously by the scientists working in the field.  They think his grasp of the pertinent science is weak and his knowledge of the literature curiously (although conveniently) outdated.  For example, far from the evolution of clotting being a mystery, the past three decades of work by Russell Doolittle and others has thrown significant light on the ways clotting came into being.......One step in the cascade involves fibrinogen, required for clotting, and another PLAMINOGEN {sic}, required for clearing clots away."
Ruse, M, "Answering the creationists: Where they go wrong and what they're afraid of," Free Inquiry, March 22, 1998, p. 28.
And then he goes on to quote Dr. Doolittle's exact passage from the MIT article!!

 

HE #%^%$#  COPY AND PASTED the fine Professor Doolittle's legitimate mistake (spelling error, PLAMINOGEN) along with the erroneous results without DUE DILIGENCE as USUAL and added his color commentary of "TRAMPLED CONTEMPTUOUSLY" into his mindless spiel. AND his opinion of what other "un-named" scientists think of Behe: "They think his grasp of the pertinent science...."  Did Ruse go and ask these other 'un-named' scientists what they think?  :bored-1:

Who else was ready to put their foot in the snare?..... Neil Greenspan Professor of Pathology, Case Western University, Ohio:  "The design advocates also ignore the accumulating examples of the reducibility of biological systems.  As RUSSELL DOOLITTLE has noted in commenting on the writings of one ID advocate {Behe}, mice genetically altered so that they lack either thrombin or fibrinogen have the expected abnormal hemostatic phenotypes. However, when the separate knockout mice are bred, the double knockouts apparently have normal hemostasis reducible complexity after all, at least in the laboratory."
Greenspan, Neil S. "Not-so-intelligent design," The Scientist, March 4, 2002, p.12.

Absolutely pitiful...he not only repeats the same exact mistake Professor Doolittle made concerning the mortality of bred knockouts (THE MICE DIED!!).... Thrombin wasn't knocked out in the study, it was FIBRINOGEN and PLASMINOGEN!!!!!!!!

This is Pathetic and Reprehensible Intellectual Laziness @ best and Academic FRAUD @ worst!! They deferred to Professor Doolittle without the slightest scrutiny or Due Diligence then propagated the company line.

 

Moreover, Why didn't the Editors of "The Scientist" catch this before publishing??

There's your "SCIENCE"!!!!  Take a Big Whiff !!!!

 

** UNOFFICIALLY ** -- Dr. Behe confronted Dr. Doolittle and pointed out his mistake concerning mortality; Dr Doolittle replied back in an email........"Ooops"!!!  But never retracted his statements.

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My head hurts......

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My head hurts......

 

I need some aspirin care to share  :th_frusty:

 

:help:

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My head hurts......

 

I need some aspirin care to share  :th_frusty:

 

:help:

 

 

Ironically, aspirin interferes with the Coagulation Cascade :)

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My head hurts......

 

I need some aspirin care to share  :th_frusty:

 

:help:

 

 

Ironically, aspirin interferes with the Coagulation Cascade

 

 

Yes I can be ironic ,forgive me I am Brit  :happyhappy:

 

Just don't ask me to say, "Please sir, can I have some more"  :taped:

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My head hurts......

 

I need some aspirin care to share  :th_frusty:

 

:help:

 

Ironically, aspirin interferes with the Coagulation Cascade :)

 

:thumbsup:

 

And Coffee Restores It Again... And Again....... And Again :)

 

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalms 139:14

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Dr. Michael Behe: Irreducible Complexity (Blood Coagulation Cascade)

 

This is a very complicated mechanism and I'm just highlighting a few steps: Basically....

Fibrinogen (Inactive in Blood),  Prothrombin (Inactive in Blood).  Also bear in mind, Plasminogen breaks down the clots after the cascade is complete and healing has taken place.

When you cut yourself, Prothrombin is converted to Thrombin which then converts Fibrinogen to Fibrin which then forms networks of polymerized Fibrins that clots the blood and stops the bleeding.   These factors have to be inactive in the blood until insult or else you'd get runaway clotting and vapor lock.

Professor Russell Doolittle (Professor of Biochemistry @ UC San Diego, Member of the National Academy of Sciences) has worked on Blood Clotting for 50 years and is the world's foremost expert, published "A Delicate Balance" in Boston Review which is Published by MIT: "Recently the gene for PLAMINOGEN(sic) was knocked out of mice.....then the same workers knocked out the gene for Fibrinogen in another line of mice.  And what do you think happened when these two lines were crossed?  For all practical purposes, the Mice lacking both genes were normal! Contrary to claims about irreducible complexity, the entire ensemble of proteins are not needed.  Music and harmony can arise from a smaller orchestra."

Dr Doolittle of course is wrong and was referring to a paper that he apparently just skimmed through, as in...just looked @ the Title, and not the whole Title but just "Loss of Fibrinogen Rescues Mice": This paper is..... "Loss of Fibrinogen Rescues Mice from the Pleiotropic Effects of Plasminogen Deficiency" Thomas Brugge et al (1996), Cell Volume 87, 709-715.

 

Authors Abstract...."Mice deficient in plasminogen and fibrinogen are phenotypically indistinguishable from fibrinogen-deficient mice".  That is to say...the new line of mice that are missing both (plasminogen and fibrinogen) have all the problems of the Fibrinogen Missing line except Thrombosis (Plasminogen breaks the clots down after healing): Blood doesn't clot (duh), hemorrhage (duh), female mice die during pregnancy (duh)!!  See other Knockout Gene studies that ALL resulted in offspring death: (Bugge et al 1995, Suh et al 1995, Suh et al 1998, Bugge et al 1996). 

Each time one factor was KNOCKED OUT in each line....The respective OFFSPRING MICE DIED!!  Which is exactly the POINT of Irreducible Complexity that Dr. Behe was illustrating!  Moreover (and this is quite troubling), Professor Doolittle obviously didn't know as evidenced by reviewing (extremely superficially) another study while being the world's foremost expert on the topic .....what does that tell you?

We're not done: watch how the "a priori adherence" to fairytales "cascades" and a typical CLUMSY tactic used by evolutionists propagates.... Note in Professor Doolittle's response to Dr. Behe in the previous MIT article, PLAMINOGEN(sic) is misspelled.  It was just a typo from Professor Doolittle... not a big deal he surely knows how to spell the word correctly. 

Michael Ruse (Philosopher of Biology and world renowned Darwinian supporter) decides to chime in on this issue a year later...."For example, Behe is a real scientist, but this case for the impossibility of a small-step natural origin of biological complexity has been trampled upon contemptuously by the scientists working in the field.  They think his grasp of the pertinent science is weak and his knowledge of the literature curiously (although conveniently) outdated.  For example, far from the evolution of clotting being a mystery, the past three decades of work by Russell Doolittle and others has thrown significant light on the ways clotting came into being.......One step in the cascade involves fibrinogen, required for clotting, and another PLAMINOGEN {sic}, required for clearing clots away."

Ruse, M, "Answering the creationists: Where they go wrong and what they're afraid of," Free Inquiry, March 22, 1998, p. 28.

And then he goes on to quote Dr. Doolittle's exact passage from the MIT article!!

 

HE #%^%$#  COPY AND PASTED the fine Professor Doolittle's legitimate mistake (spelling error, PLAMINOGEN) along with the erroneous results without DUE DILIGENCE as USUAL and added his color commentary of "TRAMPLED CONTEMPTUOUSLY" into his mindless spiel. AND his opinion of what other "un-named" scientists think of Behe: "They think his grasp of the pertinent science...."  Did Ruse go and ask these other 'un-named' scientists what they think?  :bored-1:

Who else was ready to put their foot in the snare?..... Neil Greenspan Professor of Pathology, Case Western University, Ohio:  "The design advocates also ignore the accumulating examples of the reducibility of biological systems.  As RUSSELL DOOLITTLE has noted in commenting on the writings of one ID advocate {Behe}, mice genetically altered so that they lack either thrombin or fibrinogen have the expected abnormal hemostatic phenotypes. However, when the separate knockout mice are bred, the double knockouts apparently have normal hemostasis reducible complexity after all, at least in the laboratory."

Greenspan, Neil S. "Not-so-intelligent design," The Scientist, March 4, 2002, p.12.

Absolutely pitiful...he not only repeats the same exact mistake Professor Doolittle made concerning the mortality of bred knockouts (THE MICE DIED!!).... Thrombin wasn't knocked out in the study, it was FIBRINOGEN and PLASMINOGEN!!!!!!!!

This is Pathetic and Reprehensible Intellectual Laziness @ best and Academic FRAUD @ worst!! They deferred to Professor Doolittle without the slightest scrutiny or Due Diligence then propagated the company line.

 

Moreover, Why didn't the Editors of "The Scientist" catch this before publishing??

There's your "SCIENCE"!!!!  Take a Big Whiff !!!!

 

** UNOFFICIALLY ** -- Dr. Behe confronted Dr. Doolittle and pointed out his mistake concerning mortality; Dr Doolittle replied back in an email........"Ooops"!!!  But never retracted his statements.

 

 

jeff-dunham-peanut-o_zpseae47447.gif

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Focus Spock focus! (While banging head on table)

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Seriously Enoch.....  I'm just not in the mood to think that hard today..

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Focus Spock focus! (While banging head on table)

 

:24:

 

~

 

True

 

And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. Mark 16:6 (ESV)

 

Focus

 

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11 (NASB)

 

On Afterburners

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

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Sorry Brothers and Sisters I didn't intend it to be that difficult.  I was actually tested on it a Long Long time ago, it was a nightmare...but I liked it!!

 

The whole point I was trying to make was that Behe showed quite succinctly an Irreducibly Complex System.....they're EVERYWHERE!!  But, The point was people (evolutionists) wanted to Dismiss and Vehemently Discredit Behe (And Still Do) because.....I'll show you why in a minute.

 

So the BIG GUY came out Dr. Doolittle and made an error in his assessment and like a Termites they jumped on the Bandwagon.  What they didn't do was CHECK Dr. Doolittle's Work to ensure it was accurate.  Like....well, this lines up with my world view and we gotta discredit Behe so lets all together now.....laugh it off like it was nothing.  You still hear people after all these years say...."Oh Yea, Behe....that Nut!!"          Why??...........................

 

Charles Darwin "Origin of Species":  "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications my theory would absolutely break down."

 

Let me Introduce you to IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX MR. DARWIN.........BUB BYE NOW!!!!!

 

Even though darwinian evolution was Dead on Arrival in 1972 with "Punctuated Equilibrium", then "Convergent Evolution"....  Irreducible Complexity went right for the Jugular.   He also demonstrated it quite well with the Bacterial Flagellum.... (and Yes, I know about the Type III Secretory System....so make my day!!)

 

I like to think of it as the RATE LIMITING STEP....

 

Lets use a common example....a football game. I'm sure there are other obvious rate limiters (field, players ect) but the one that stands out is what? THE FOOTBALL!!

If we cut the Football in half do we just play half a game?? Or no game? We cut 1/4 off...do we just play the first Three Quarters then go home?

 

Lets build a house: What's the Rate Limiting Step (besides the materials and the construction workers) maybe the foundation?? If we just build half the foundation do we get half a house? No House? Or does the complete foundation have to be in place to then start working on the walls? Or do we just say, "to heck the walls, once the foundation is set.... lets put the roof on!!"

 

Hope it helps

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have heard some other cases of this irreducible complexity, but they are not always so upon examination, such as the eye.  I was reading that one of the clotting factors Behe listed (Factor XII) was found to be absent in whales.  Obviously not an essential component.

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I have heard some other cases of this irreducible complexity, but they are not always so upon examination, such as the eye.  I was reading that one of the clotting factors Behe listed (Factor XII) was found to be absent in whales.  Obviously not an essential component.

 

I hear alot of things also.

                          

Just a suggestion to eliminate the one-liners.  Pretend each and every time you post or offer a rebuttal that you're presenting your case to a Judge and Jury.  You actually are in a sense....The Court of Worthy.

 

Present your Case..... or is that it?  This sounds like an opening statement.

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I feel that I am not adequately informed as to the intricate details of the concept, but I have a cursory knowledge and have read several criticisms and the outcome of the court case.  Perhaps you can educate me a bit by giving me an iron clad case of irreducible complexity that I can sink my teeth into. 

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;)  Think I'm going to change my pic.  I look too vulnerable.

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I'm about to doolittle me some hot pockets tonight.

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I was still hoping to get my example to wrap my mind around. . .  I'm not much for quoting experts; it is a bit unwieldy to try and get the gist of the idea with enough context to make a concise response.  That being said, I am not opposed to the practice in general, but I'd rather read the other person's personal ideas more.

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All right, enough bickering. Sheesh!

 

I did a simple search on the matter.

 

Yes, the clotting factor is missing in whales.

 

And here is the rebuttal to the rebuttal:

 

http://www.discovery.org/a/8561

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I feel that I am not adequately informed as to the intricate details of the concept, but I have a cursory knowledge and have read several criticisms and the outcome of the court case.  Perhaps you can educate me a bit by giving me an iron clad case of irreducible complexity that I can sink my teeth into. 

 

 

You mean the court cases where the ACLU provided the Judges decisions?

 

I've given you all you need.  Besides, I've shown you the difference between "order" (Sand Dune) and "Specific Complexity" (Sand Castle) Examples on a different board that had you questioning what the differences were... and now you wish me to provide more Irreducibly Complex Examples??  :huh:

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All right, enough bickering. Sheesh!

 

I did a simple search on the matter.

 

Yes, the clotting factor is missing in whales.

 

And here is the rebuttal to the rebuttal:

 

http://www.discovery.org/a/8561

 

Yes it is Neb...to funny.

 

I guess you new I had that :)....but wasn't it puffer fish and cetaceans?  Note the Fork in the center of the 2 pathways

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Yeah, that Miller is one bad hombre!  So the clotting sequence is quasi irreducible?  Maybe a more robust example would be in order.  Just off the top of our heads.  I got you on the complexity question, but I didn't really buy into the specific complexity idea, no offense intended.  I will leave the critique of this idea to finer minds.  

One thing that comes up.  If IE guys are right and prevail with the idea of irreducible complexity and evolutionists capitulate, won't they simply retrench and come up with another naturalistic counter idea? 

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Stop with the insults or this thread will be locked.

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Yeah, that Miller is one bad hombre!  So the clotting sequence is quasi irreducible?  Maybe a more robust example would be in order.  Just off the top of our heads.  I got you on the complexity question, but I didn't really buy into the specific complexity idea, no offense intended.  I will leave the critique of this idea to finer minds.  

One thing that comes up.  If IE guys are right and prevail with the idea of irreducible complexity and evolutionists capitulate, won't they simply retrench and come up with another naturalistic counter idea? 

 

"Yeah, that Miller is one bad hombre!"

 

Especially with Strawmen

 

"So the clotting sequence is quasi irreducible?"

 

No it isn't.  That's like saying.... "She's a little pregnant."

 

 

"Maybe a more robust example would be in order."

 

The Coagulation Cascade is plenty Robust as clearly shown.  If you get bored, roll on over to the Flagellar Motor then review Dr. Scott Minnich (Geneticist and associate professor of Microbiology UI) he's one of the world's foremost experts on the motor.

 

That brings me to another point....Nature Producing/Manufacturing a motor :huh:   See also ATP Synthase and Kinesin if you really want some laughs.

 

 

"If IE guys are right and prevail with the idea of irreducible complexity and evolutionists capitulate, won't they simply retrench and come up with another naturalistic counter idea?"

 

Yep...another fiasco ascribing sentience and intelligence to Natural Selection complete with foresight and predetermined engineering assets.

 

I don't even know why I keep commenting on the fairytale; as mentioned, the theory (unverified hypothesis for some people, my critique is somewhat worse) was DOA in 1972 with with Punctuated Equilibrium......the first official Ad Hoc Hypothesis Savior.

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The flagellar motor is not without criticism, but I'll avoid any one liners per your request.

Let me go on record as to state I believe God created everything. I just view some ideas by creationists as unsound.

Enough said. Enjoy your weekend.

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The flagellar motor is not without criticism, but I'll avoid any one liners per your request.

Let me go on record as to state I believe God created everything. I just view some ideas by creationists as unsound.

Enough said. Enjoy your weekend.

 

"The flagellar motor is not without criticism"

 

The criticisms are Clumsy and dismissed with very little effort, quite frankly...I've reviewed everyone that I could find.  If you have one that you think is sound, go ahead and post.

 

 

"Let me go on record as to state I believe God created everything."

 

Understood.

 

 

"I just view some ideas by creationists as unsound."

 

Aren't you a Creationist?  I don't have an issue if they're legitimate and can be expressed clearly Point By Point, Specifically.  I do have an issue with making generalized statements about "unsoundness" without Specific Detailed Reference and Sound Rationale to Support Each Assertion.

 

 

"Enjoy your weekend."

 

You also.

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